Ovechkin passes Selanne,Super Mario,Yzerman and Messier for career goals. 2 more for 700 goal club.

[DFC]

Really think when you consider eras, this is the best goal-scorer of all time. The fact that he still might be the best goal-scorer in the game at his age is really amazing. I think when you consider longevity, the conversation is really down to Ovy and Mario. But Ovy's starting to rack up extra longevity points. Being a perennial Rocket threat into his mid-thirties is pretty amazing.

 

[pcruz]

Guy who has taken almost 2000 more shots than any other F since he entered the league has scored a lot of goals.

12.6 shooting % over a career is nothing special. But when you out shoot everyone by miles, you're going to win a lot of hardware as it pertains to scoring goals.

This was no different for Bobby Hull back in the day although Hull was simply a more dynamic player for a longer period of time but i don't expect many to even know who Bobby Hull was here.

Everyone is free to take 400+ shots per year.
Why doesn’t everyone just shoot more?
Well, it does take the ability to hit the net.
It does take the ability to open up space to control the puck the right way and get a shot off on net.
Takes ability to have more shots not blocked or deflected away like all good defenders do.
Takes ability and smarts to get into the right areas on the ice to receive a pass and get the shot on net.

Hmm, seems like the ability to not only get shots away, but many many shots on the net forcing the goalie to either stop the puck or allow a goal, is a skill that players have to varying degrees.

Seems like Ovechkin has the ability and instinct to allow him to take all these shots on net.

Using the shot totals as a detrimental argument is really ass-backwards.

 

[Creativero]

If he any class

Yeah gonna argue the counterpoint. It’s more impressive that Ovechkin has pocketed as many goals that he has and that no one has done it as consistent as he has. It just shows how hard goal scoring actual is in this league and he continues to score goals while becoming an old man before our eyes.

As for the shots, maybe he has that many more shots because he’s very good at getting himself in a solid shooting position. Or maybe it’s because he has played almost the entire 2 minutes on just about every Capitals PP chance over the past 15 years. Without looking, I’d be willing to bet his PP TOI totals and the PP TOI average is well above anyone else in the league.

Scoring on the PP has won a lot of hockey games in real life. Thous goals only count less here.

 

[AD1066]

Guy who has taken almost 2000 more shots than any other F since he entered the league has scored a lot of goals.

12.6 shooting % over a career is nothing special. But when you out shoot everyone by miles, you're going to win a lot of hardware as it pertains to scoring goals.

This was no different for Bobby Hull back in the day although Hull was simply a more dynamic player for a longer period of time but i don't expect many to even know who Bobby Hull was here.

We should probably inform every grinder and career AHLer that the key to a 10M/year contract and going down as one of the top three goal-scorers of all time, is to simply take more shots.

Yeah, somebody should probably tell them. Poor guys.

 

[shaner82]

The goalies Lemieux played against were laughable too.

No one said OV is a better goal scorer than Lemieux so don't wet yourself. But yeah, it's "laughable" to suggest the guy with the most goal scoring titles ever is the greatest.

The thing I find laughable is all the people putting down other players in order to prop up their favourite. My favourite, and who I believe to be the greatest player of all time, is Lemieux. With that said, I can understand the discussion of Wayne being the best, or Ovi being the best goal scorer, or Bossy, etc. None of this is black and white. Wayne beat up on weaker goaltending. Mario did too, although to a lesser degree as he played more in the 90's and even the 2000's. With that said, they didn't have the best training, equipment, nutrition, etc. It's all relative.

Ovi, Wayne, Mario, Bossy, Howe, Jagr, are all legends. Nothing can be taken away from any of them. Whether Ovi is or isn't the best goal scorer ever is up for debate. it will never be a consensus. What is a fact is that a race for the all the time goal title is exciting. Ovi's last few years are going to be awfully exciting if he can keep inching closer

 

[ScaredStreit]

Really think when you consider eras, this is the best goal-scorer of all time. The fact that he still might be the best goal-scorer in the game at his age is really amazing. I think when you consider longevity, the conversation is really down to Ovy and Mario. But Ovy's starting to rack up extra longevity points. Being a perennial Rocket threat into his mid-thirties is pretty amazing.

As great as he is...Ovechkin is not as good as Lemieux (or Gretzky) when it comes to scoring goals. I would probably rank him right behind them though.

 

[gtrower]

It never ceases to amaze me how stats can be spun. I’ve seen arguments against Ovi that he’s not the best goal scorer ever because he hasn’t distanced himself from the pack year-in-year-out as much as other previous greats.

And now we’re getting the argument that he’s not the best goal scorer ever because he hasn’t had enough competition for his Rockets.

I guess some times you’ve just got to tip the cap and laugh.

 

[tacogeoff]

The thing I find laughable is all the people putting down other players in order to prop up their favourite. My favourite, and who I believe to be the greatest player of all time, is Lemieux. With that said, I can understand the discussion of Wayne being the best, or Ovi being the best goal scorer, or Bossy, etc. None of this is black and white. Wayne beat up on weaker goaltending. Mario did too, although to a lesser degree as he played more in the 90's and even the 2000's. With that said, they didn't have the best training, equipment, nutrition, etc. It's all relative.

Ovi, Wayne, Mario, Bossy, Howe, Jagr, are all legends. Nothing can be taken away from any of them. Whether Ovi is or isn't the best goal scorer ever is up for debate. it will never be a consensus. What is a fact is that a race for the all the time goal title is exciting. Ovi's last few years are going to be awfully exciting if he can keep inching closer

That is a very overlooked aspect when you consider the goalies training, equipment and fundamentals back then in comparison to the science goaltending has become as the sport progressed into the 2000s along with much larger and lighter equipment.

 

[gtrower]

That is a very overlooked aspect when you consider the goalies training, equipment and fundamentals back then in comparison to the science goaltending has become as the sport progressed into the 2000s along with much larger and lighter equipment.

...that’s not overlooked. It’s talked about constantly in these Ovi threads. And it’s all accounted for by just looking at league average scoring over the years. If you don’t believe in adjusting for era that’s fine, it’s a preference. But if you’re trying to figure out how to reconcile all the variables of stick materials, goalie pads, goalie, talent, style of play then scoring average literally takes all that into account.

 

[ScaredStreit]

It never ceases to amaze me how stats can be spun. I’ve seen arguments against Ovi that he’s not the best goal scorer ever because he hasn’t distanced himself from the pack year-in-year-out as much as other previous greats.

And now we’re getting the argument that he’s not the best goal scorer ever because he hasn’t had enough competition for his Rockets.

I guess some times you’ve just got to tip the cap and laugh.

Let's compare Lemieux with Ovechkin:

Lemieux in 2001 scored 35 goals in 43 games (despite missing the previous 3 seasons and his body being largely broken down). He was on pace for 67 goals. Nobody scored 60 that season in the NHL. League average of 2.76 goals per game.

Ovechkin in 2008 scored 65 goals in 82 games. There were 2.78 goals per game.

The above are facts. Let's analyze them:

A 36 year old Lemieux who missed the previous 3 seasons, was battling with injuries, and was out of his prime was on pace to outscore a 23 year old Ovechkin during his peak. This during years where goals per game were nearly identical (technically it was a little harder to score during Lemieux's season).

You're telling me arguing Lemieux > Ovechkin as a goal scorer is laughable? Right...

 

[Mildan]

Selanne totals actually pretty insane considering he entered the league as 23 year old if I remember correctly..

 

[Devil Dancer]

Yes, tell me more about the goalies you’ve only seen in highlight reels who had to rely more on athleticism than goalies that followed with their bigger gear and looked like fools because they were getting shots fired at them by many more goal scorers than exist today.

This is confusing, are you arguing that the goalies Wayne and Mario played against were better than modern goalies?

 

[ScaredStreit]

This is confusing, are you arguing that the goalies Wayne and Mario played against were better than modern goalies?

Which goaltenders today are as good as Roy, Hasek, or Brodeur?

As per my post above scoring wasn't always easier during Lemieux's career.

 

[gtrower]

Let's compare Lemieux with Ovechkin:

Lemieux in 2001 scored 35 goals in 43 games (despite missing the previous 3 seasons and his body being largely broken down). He was on pace for 67 goals. Nobody scored 60 that season in the NHL. League average of 2.76 goals per game.

Ovechkin in 2008 scored 65 goals in 82 games. There were 2.78 goals per game.

The above are facts. Let's analyze them:

A 36 year old Lemieux who missed the previous 3 seasons, was battling with injuries, and was out of his prime was on pace to outscore a 23 year old Ovechkin during his peak. This during years where goals per game were nearly identical (technically it was a little harder to score during Lemieux's season).

You're telling me arguing Lemieux > Ovechkin as a goal scorer is laughable? Right...

I literally said none of those things. And didn’t even mention Lemieux in the post. Did you mean to quote somebody else?

I simply pointed out the fact that Ovi has been knocked on this board for both not distancing himself from his competition enough AND not having enough competition for his Rockets.

The haha part was that those two assertions contradict each other but are both being used as arguments against him.

 

[Randyne]

Let's compare Lemieux with Ovechkin:
Lemieux in 2001 scored 35 goals in 43 games (despite missing the previous 3 seasons and his body being largely broken down). He was on pace for 67 goals. Nobody scored 60 that season in the NHL. League average of 2.76 goals per game.
Ovechkin in 2008 scored 65 goals in 82 games. There were 2.78 goals per game.
The above are facts. Let's analyze them:
A 36 year old Lemieux who missed the previous 3 seasons, was battling with injuries, and was out of his prime was on pace to outscore a 23 year old Ovechkin during his peak. This during years where goals per game were nearly identical (technically it was a little harder to score during Lemieux's season).
You're telling me arguing Lemieux > Ovechkin as a goal scorer is laughable? Right...

33 years old Ovechkin who played full 14 years in NHL, was battling with injures, and was out of his prime was on pace to outscore 22 year old Lemieux.

 

[ScaredStreit]

33 years old Ovechkin who played full 14 years in NHL, was battling with injures, and was out of his prime was on pace to outscore 22 year old Lemieux.

Unless my math with years is off...when Ovechkin was 33 he scored 51 goals in in 81 games. When Lemieux was 22 he scored 54 goals in 63 games. What are you talking about?

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

Let's compare Lemieux with Ovechkin:

Lemieux in 2001 scored 35 goals in 43 games (despite missing the previous 3 seasons and his body being largely broken down). He was on pace for 67 goals. Nobody scored 60 that season in the NHL. League average of 2.76 goals per game.

Ovechkin in 2008 scored 65 goals in 82 games. There were 2.78 goals per game.

The above are facts. Let's analyze them:

A 36 year old Lemieux who missed the previous 3 seasons, was battling with injuries, and was out of his prime was on pace to outscore a 23 year old Ovechkin during his peak. This during years where goals per game were nearly identical (technically it was a little harder to score during Lemieux's season).

You're telling me arguing Lemieux > Ovechkin as a goal scorer is laughable? Right...

Lemieux was beast and when he returned after cancer and hadn't missed a beat, it was incredible. But on pace after 43 games is totally different than actually keeping it up the whole season. Many players have been on pace for incredible seasons after half a year and usually not so many keep them up. Still he probably would have scored well past 50 for sure.

As far as the debate, I think they are pretty even.

 

[Randyne]

Unless my math with years is off...when Ovechkin was 33 he scored 51 goals in in 81 games. When Lemieux was 22 he scored 54 goals in 63 games. What are you talking about?

I quoted you almost entirely just replaced names. You like stupidly short paces so you'll find Ovechkin's 74 goal pace at 33 yo.

 

[filinski77]

Which goaltenders today are as good as Roy, Hasek, or Brodeur?

As per my post above scoring wasn't always easier during Lemieux's career.

Don't be closed minded.

1) The average goaltender is MUCH better today than the average goaltender in their days, this is much more relevant considering that these are only THREE goalies in the league, who only played roughly 40-70% for their individual team. I don't know how to find the metrics, but I would argue that the % of either of their total GP against these 3 goalies is miniscule.

2) Wayne and Mario barely even played much against these goalies anyways LOL:

Year	Gretzky GP	Gretzky Goals	Lemieux GP	Lemieux G	Brodeur Sv%	Hasek Sv%	Roy Sv%
1979-80	79	51
1980-81	80	55
1981-82	80	92
1982-83	80	71
1983-84	74	87
1984-85	80	73	73	43
1985-86	80	52	79	48			0.875
1986-87	79	62	63	54			0.891
1987-88	64	40	77	70			0.9
1988-89	78	54	76	85			0.908
1989-90	73	40	59	45			0.912
1990-91	78	41	26	19			0.906
1991-92	74	31	64	44			0.914
1992-93	45	16	60	69		0.896	0.894
1993-94	81	38	22	17	0.915	0.93	0.918
1994-95	48	11			0.902	0.93	0.906
1995-96	80	23	70	69	0.911	0.92	0.908
1996-97	82	25	76	50	0.927	0.93	0.923
1997-98	82	23			0.917	0.932	0.916
1998-99	70	9			0.906	0.937	0.917
1999-00					0.91	0.919	0.914
2000-01			43	35	0.906	0.921	0.913
2001-02			24	6	0.906	0.915	0.925
2002-03			67	28	0.914		0.92
2003-04			10	1	0.917	0.907
2005-06			26	7	0.911	0.925

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	Wayne	Wayne %
Before Roy / Hasek / Brodeur	429	48%
Before all 3 *note*	583	65%
Before Haskek / Brodeur	749	84%
Before Brodeur	765	86%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	Mario	Mario %
Before Roy / Hasek / Brodeur	43	6%
Before all 3 *note*	215	31%
Before Haskek / Brodeur	408	59%
Before Brodeur	477	69%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The *note* is adjusted numbers up until the first time that Roy had a season with over a .900 sv% (aka just removing his first 3 seasons from these metrics, since he wasn't a top goaltender yet.

As you can see, Wayne scored half his goals before any of these goalies hit the league, and almost ALL of his career goals before Hasek and Brodeur even came into the league. Mario scored roughly 1/3 of his goals before Roy became a top goalie, and before the other 2 came in the league, and he scored almost 2/3's of his goals before Hasek or Brodeur even came in the league.

ALL this, despite playing (I'd say) 90% of their GP against much inferior goalies compared to today.

Thx

 

[Video Nasty]

Lemieux was beast and when he returned after cancer and hadn't missed a beat, it was incredible. But on pace after 43 games is totally different than actually keeping it up the whole season. Many players have been on pace for incredible seasons after half a year and usually not so many keep them up. Still he probably would have scored well past 50 for sure.

As far as the debate, I think they are pretty even.

Players like Gretzky and Lemieux earned the right to project out pace because unlike other players, they played otherworldly for the vast majority of their careers.

 

[Susannah]

They absolutely will/would. Penguins are an extremely classy organization, just as the Capitals are.

And I bet he would get a pretty nice ovation as well.

I wrote that incorrectly. Penguins would. I am not sure Pittsburgh fans would.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Don't be closed minded.

1) The average goaltender is MUCH better today than the average goaltender in their days, this is much more relevant considering that these are only THREE goalies in the league, who only played roughly 40-70% for their individual team. I don't know how to find the metrics, but I would argue that the % of either of their total GP against these 3 goalies is miniscule.

2) Wayne and Mario barely even played much against these goalies anyways LOL:

Year	Gretzky GP	Gretzky Goals	Lemieux GP	Lemieux G	Brodeur Sv%	Hasek Sv%	Roy Sv%
1979-80	79	51
1980-81	80	55
1981-82	80	92
1982-83	80	71
1983-84	74	87
1984-85	80	73	73	43
1985-86	80	52	79	48			0.875
1986-87	79	62	63	54			0.891
1987-88	64	40	77	70			0.9
1988-89	78	54	76	85			0.908
1989-90	73	40	59	45			0.912
1990-91	78	41	26	19			0.906
1991-92	74	31	64	44			0.914
1992-93	45	16	60	69		0.896	0.894
1993-94	81	38	22	17	0.915	0.93	0.918
1994-95	48	11			0.902	0.93	0.906
1995-96	80	23	70	69	0.911	0.92	0.908
1996-97	82	25	76	50	0.927	0.93	0.923
1997-98	82	23			0.917	0.932	0.916
1998-99	70	9			0.906	0.937	0.917
1999-00					0.91	0.919	0.914
2000-01			43	35	0.906	0.921	0.913
2001-02			24	6	0.906	0.915	0.925
2002-03			67	28	0.914		0.92
2003-04			10	1	0.917	0.907
2005-06			26	7	0.911	0.925

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	Wayne	Wayne %
Before Roy / Hasek / Brodeur	429	48%
Before all 3 *note*	583	65%
Before Haskek / Brodeur	749	84%
Before Brodeur	765	86%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	Mario	Mario %
Before Roy / Hasek / Brodeur	43	6%
Before all 3 *note*	215	31%
Before Haskek / Brodeur	408	59%
Before Brodeur	477	69%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The *note* is adjusted numbers up until the first time that Roy had a season with over a .900 sv% (aka just removing his first 3 seasons from these metrics, since he wasn't a top goaltender yet.

As you can see, Wayne scored half his goals before any of these goalies hit the league, and almost ALL of his career goals before Hasek and Brodeur even came into the league. Mario scored roughly 1/3 of his goals before Roy became a top goalie, and before the other 2 came in the league, and he scored almost 2/3's of his goals before Hasek or Brodeur even came in the league.

ALL this, despite playing (I'd say) 90% of their GP against much inferior goalies compared to today.

Thx

I specifically used 2001 and 2008. The goals per game were 2.76 and 2.78 respectively. It was just as difficult to score goals those two years, regardless of the goaltending.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I quoted you almost entirely just replaced names. You like stupidly short paces so you'll find Ovechkin's 74 goal pace at 33 yo.

So you don't think Lemieux would keep scoring at a high pace over one half of a season?

 

[wetcoast]

This entire thread has gone off the rails.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Guy who has taken almost 2000 more shots than any other F since he entered the league has scored a lot of goals.

12.6 shooting % over a career is nothing special. But when you out shoot everyone by miles, you're going to win a lot of hardware as it pertains to scoring goals.

This was no different for Bobby Hull back in the day although Hull was simply a more dynamic player for a longer period of time but i don't expect many to even know who Bobby Hull was here.

I love seeing this type of stuff because this is how you know someone doesn't get hockey. This isn't basketball bud.