Speculation: Our Contender Window

[Spirits]

There were few, if any, that said we were a 2C away from the cup. I think Sea Eagles even thought that wasn't true. The story last season was secondary scoring in it's entirety not, "we have a sweet top 6 minus the 2C spot that is plaguing us."

 

[henchman21]

It wasn't just a 2C alone although that was certainly an aspect to it. It was about the lack of secondary scoring overall. That was really the point. It seems Sakic has endeavored to address that and preliminary results are positive.

I understand your point about signing a 2C and retaining Barrie last season but my preference was the way Sakic went about it. We seem so much deeper now.

If Stastny had been signed, Barrie could have been used to bring in a 2nd line wing for Stastny to play with and we'd have the same defensive depth we have now. For as much as people preach asset management, I don't think people want to grasp that a signed #2C AND having more assets to spend to shore up the team, gives the team a better shot at securing depth.

I mentioned numerous times that Barrie for Kadri is one of the few Barrie trades I'd make. So in no way am I unhappy that Kadri is our #2C. I think he is a great player and fits very well. The Avs are setup to contend this year with maybe some tweaks that all contenders need to make to some extent (even Tampa last year should have made a tweak at the deadline). I do think that the Avs lost one year out of a contention window by delaying the #2C move a season. Having an adequate #2C could have very easily been the difference in the Shark series. Going 7 games, with the PP struggling, and the last two losses coming by one goal each... not a huge stretch to say a #2C changes that dynamic.

 

[flyfysher]

I'm not sure that adding a 2C in Stastny would have done the trick and brought the Avs the SC last year although your reasoning is sound. Remember, the Avs had Kerfoot. I'd rather have Donskoi and Burakovsky on the wing. As much as people are griping about Jost not being suitable on the wing, it really points out the issue was more than simply adding a 2C.

Frankly, I think it was a pipe dream to think Stastny would return to CO. It just seemed that Sakic wasn't interested in pursuing that angle.

 

[Spirits]

If Stastny had been signed, Barrie could have been used to bring in a 2nd line wing for Stastny to play with and we'd have the same defensive depth we have now. For as much as people preach asset management, I don't think people want to grasp that a signed #2C AND having more assets to spend to shore up the team, gives the team a better shot at securing depth.

I mentioned numerous times that Barrie for Kadri is one of the few Barrie trades I'd make. So in no way am I unhappy that Kadri is our #2C. I think he is a great player and fits very well. The Avs are setup to contend this year with maybe some tweaks that all contenders need to make to some extent (even Tampa last year should have made a tweak at the deadline). I do think that the Avs lost one year out of a contention window by delaying the #2C move a season. Having an adequate #2C could have very easily been the difference in the Shark series. Going 7 games, with the PP struggling, and the last two losses coming by one goal each... not a huge stretch to say a #2C changes that dynamic.

We went into the playoffs as the 8th seed and we were in a dogfight to even get into the playoffs with Arizona. It is revisionist history to say we were contenders last year. The idea of bringing Makar into the fold was not unanimously agreed upon here either. We actually had most of the people thinking it was a waste of one year of his ELC to burn it in a series we probably wouldn't win (Calgary). We didn't know what was going to happen last year in the SC Playoffs but I read this forum daily and don't remember people thinking (for the most part) that we would get out of the first round until we were up 2-1 and Makar came in and dominated.

We had to go 8-1-2(?) to get into the playoffs down the stretch with a goalie most of us had lost faith in by that time. Remember Grubauer wasn't looking good until that hot streak and it continued into the playoffs. We had a serious goaltending problem last year.

 

[The Abusement Park]

That's like asking why wouldn't we want to be the Oilers because they won all those cups. The team that won the cups is not the same as the team now. Yes, it's a lot of the same players, but that's part of the problem, because those same players are all old now, and they haven't surrounded those aging players with enough youth and speed to remain contenders.

In a cap world everyone is going to end up being bad at some point, or at least a bubble team. The Hawks are, the Pens most definitely will when Malkin/Crosby drop off, same with the Caps and Ovi/Bäckström, the Kings, the Sharks etc. It’s a cycle and I’d much rather guarantee 2 cups.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

It is very easy to continuously push an alternate path to become a contender when it is impossible to prove that 1. it would have worked and 2. how long the team would have remain said contender.

 

[henchman21]

We went into the playoffs as the 8th seed and we were in a dogfight to even get into the playoffs with Arizona. It is revisionist history to say we were contenders last year. The idea of bringing Makar into the fold was not unanimously agreed upon here either. We actually had most of the people thinking it was a waste of one year of his ELC to burn it in a series we probably wouldn't win (Calgary). We didn't know what was going to happen last year in the SC Playoffs but I read this forum daily and don't remember people thinking (for the most part) that we would get out of the first round until we were up 2-1 and Makar came in and dominated.

I was beating that drum that all of that 2018 summer, so I don't see how that is revisionist history with I posted over and over about it. I simply believed the #2C spot was the biggest hole on the team and if solved other pieces would fall into place. With a #2C the whole season, or even half of it, the Avs are not as much in a dog fight to get into the playoffs. Plus the Kings won their first Cup as a #8 seed... being an eighth seed doesn't mean a team can't compete.

 

[Spirits]

I was beating that drum that all of that 2018 summer, so I don't see how that is revisionist history with I posted over and over about it. I simply believed the #2C spot was the biggest hole on the team and if solved other pieces would fall into place. With a #2C the whole season, or even half of it, the Avs are not as much in a dog fight to get into the playoffs. Plus the Kings won their first Cup as a #8 seed... being an eighth seed doesn't mean a team can't compete.

Please answer the netminder woes we had last season. Did you think from January through March we were contending for anything?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Please answer the netminder woes we had last season. Did you think from January through March we were contending with anything?

Both goalies sucked ass for 1.5 months last year I don’t think anyone is going to argue that. But Grub also was never given a chance to be the starter when it was clear he was brought in to be the starter long term and I think it wasn’t great for him mentally(or any goalie really).

 

[Bubba Thudd]

If you go back you’ll find plenty of posts from @cgf and myself on this exact topic. Plenty of history on the subject.

Just kidding

 

[henchman21]

Please answer the netminder woes we had last season. Did you think from January through March we were contending for anything?

That January and Feb, I was calling for the Avs to figure out what they had in Grubs/Frank to run with that tandem. If they failed, make a move. Grubs eventually ran with it. Which I stated, if they did, make a supporting move... I've been beating the drum of the Avs adding that #2C for a long, long time. Back when people thought Jost was the perfect fit as a 2 way future ROR at the position, I was calling for it to be solved to build a contending team.

Rumor: - Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XVIII| what's going on with the team ?

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Or this whole conversation started with a post about nobody saw this coming... which was not true. A simple #2C is all the Avs needed and it was clear.

I guess you are referencing one of my post with this comment. Let me refresh your memory that I never said "nobody saw that coming". I said that that "Nobody had us as a contender before last season started and by the last TDL". We MIGHT have been a contender with adding a #2C like you were pushing but as the team was last year my statement was absolutely correct. You saying that we would have been contending IF we had added that #2C doesn't make my statement false. If you would have taken my statement for what it was and not bring up last year lack of move for a #2C, none of this discussion would have happened.

 

[MarkT]

If you go back you’ll find plenty of posts from @cgf and myself on this exact topic. Plenty of history on the subject.

You mean cgf, the guy who even know is going on and on about the Avs needing another top 6 player AND a right handed defenseman? Are you claiming that he only ever wanted a 2C?

If Stastny had been signed, Barrie could have been used to bring in a 2nd line wing for Stastny to play with and we'd have the same defensive depth we have now. For as much as people preach asset management, I don't think people want to grasp that a signed #2C AND having more assets to spend to shore up the team, gives the team a better shot at securing depth.

I mentioned numerous times that Barrie for Kadri is one of the few Barrie trades I'd make. So in no way am I unhappy that Kadri is our #2C. I think he is a great player and fits very well. The Avs are setup to contend this year with maybe some tweaks that all contenders need to make to some extent (even Tampa last year should have made a tweak at the deadline). I do think that the Avs lost one year out of a contention window by delaying the #2C move a season. Having an adequate #2C could have very easily been the difference in the Shark series. Going 7 games, with the PP struggling, and the last two losses coming by one goal each... not a huge stretch to say a #2C changes that dynamic.

How do you know Stastny even wanted to sign here?

Plus, unless we traded Barrie a year earlier, the only difference for last year's team would be Stastny. Do you really think Stastny alone would have made the difference in not only the Sharks series, but against St. Louis and Boston? I was really happy with how the Avs played in the playoffs, but I don't think we stood a chance against those last two teams when you compare our depth (even with Stastny) and theirs.

In a cap world everyone is going to end up being bad at some point, or at least a bubble team. The Hawks are, the Pens most definitely will when Malkin/Crosby drop off, same with the Caps and Ovi/Bäckström, the Kings, the Sharks etc. It’s a cycle and I’d much rather guarantee 2 cups.

I'm willing to accept the Avs taking a brief drop when MacKinnon and Rantanen drop off, but that's (hopefully) at least a decade from now. Even then, I'd hope Sakic would have acquired/developed new star players by then. If he doesn't, then he (or whoever the GM is) will have failed at their job.

But are you serious? You can never guarantee even one cup. There are literally zero moves Sakic could make that would guarantee even a single cup. Look at Tampa last season. They were stacked. Look at how good some non-cup winning teams have been in the past. You choose L.A. as your example because they won two cups, but that's hindsight bias. Real life doesn't work that way.

So loading up and accepting that you'll suck afterwards - that's what Columbus did, and now look at them. Do they look like they'll be a contender again any time soon? How many times have the Rangers loaded up since they last won the cup? How many cups did that guarantee for them? For every example of a team that engaged in short-term thinking winning a cup, I can show you at least one example of a team that engaged in short-term thinking and didn't win a cup.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

You mean cgf, the guy who even know is going on and on about the Avs needing another top 6 player AND a right handed defenseman? Are you claiming that he only ever wanted a 2C?



How do you know Stastny even wanted to sign here?

Plus, unless we traded Barrie a year earlier, the only difference for last year's team would be Stastny. Do you really think Stastny alone would have made the difference in not only the Sharks series, but against St. Louis and Boston? I was really happy with how the Avs played in the playoffs, but I don't think we stood a chance against those last two teams when you compare our depth (even with Stastny) and theirs.



I'm willing to accept the Avs taking a brief drop when MacKinnon and Rantanen drop off, but that's (hopefully) at least a decade from now. Even then, I'd hope Sakic would have acquired/developed new star players by then. If he doesn't, then he (or whoever the GM is) will have failed at their job.

But are you serious? You can never guarantee even one cup. There are literally zero moves Sakic could make that would guarantee even a single cup. Look at Tampa last season. They were stacked. Look at how good some non-cup winning teams have been in the past. You choose L.A. as your example because they won two cups, but that's hindsight bias. Real life doesn't work that way.

So loading up and accepting that you'll suck afterwards - that's what Columbus did, and now look at them. Do they look like they'll be a contender again any time soon? How many times have the Rangers loaded up since they last won the cup? How many cups did that guarantee for them? For every example of a team that engaged in short-term thinking winning a cup, I can show you at least one example of a team that engaged in short-term thinking and didn't win a cup.

1st Bolded is just pure bullshit. He's only been wanting a RHD since we traded our best one a few months ago. Why on Earth would he have beem clamoring for a RHD a year ago when the organization had Tyson, EJ, Makar, Meloche, and Timmins in the organization.


And everyone still recognizes this team needs another Top 6 forward to truly contend. Why do you think Taylor Hall is mentioned so much on our boards.



Cant help bust stop taking your post seriously when you think we can be contenders for "at least a decade". Talk about being completely out of touch with the NHL landscape.

 

[Iceberg]

A lot of people were not happy with the team starting last season with Jost at 2C, many wanted the team to sign Stastny. We all agreed secondary scoring (not just 2C) was a problem. Skinner was one of, if not the most popular name, but also TVR and Neal used to come up in those discutions.

Still, i don't remember anybody talking about being one piece away from Stanley Cup contention.

 

[henchman21]

I guess you are referencing one of my post with this comment. Let me refresh your memory that I never said "nobody saw that coming". I said that that "Nobody had us as a contender before last season started and by the last TDL". We MIGHT have been a contender with adding a #2C like you were pushing but as the team was last year my statement was absolutely correct. You saying that we would have been contending IF we had added that #2C doesn't make my statement false. If you would have taken my statement for what it was and not bring up last year lack of move for a #2C, none of this discussion would have happened.

That's totally fair.

You mean cgf, the guy who even know is going on and on about the Avs needing another top 6 player AND a right handed defenseman? Are you claiming that he only ever wanted a 2C?



How do you know Stastny even wanted to sign here?

Plus, unless we traded Barrie a year earlier, the only difference for last year's team would be Stastny. Do you really think Stastny alone would have made the difference in not only the Sharks series, but against St. Louis and Boston? I was really happy with how the Avs played in the playoffs, but I don't think we stood a chance against those last two teams when you compare our depth (even with Stastny) and theirs.

With Stastny signed and Barrie in tow... all cgf would be clamoring for is a top 6 winger. Which is a common piece added by contending teams at the deadline.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I’m willing to accept the Avs taking a brief drop when MacKinnon and Rantanen drop off, but that's (hopefully) at least a decade from now. Even then, I'd hope Sakic would have acquired/developed new star players by then. If he doesn't, then he (or whoever the GM is) will have failed at their job.

But are you serious? You can never guarantee even one cup. There are literally zero moves Sakic could make that would guarantee even a single cup. Look at Tampa last season. They were stacked. Look at how good some non-cup winning teams have been in the past. You choose L.A. as your example because they won two cups, but that's hindsight bias. Real life doesn't work that way.

So loading up and accepting that you'll suck afterwards - that's what Columbus did, and now look at them. Do they look like they'll be a contender again any time soon? How many times have the Rangers loaded up since they last won the cup? How many cups did that guarantee for them? For every example of a team that engaged in short-term thinking winning a cup, I can show you at least one example of a team that engaged in short-term thinking and didn't win a cup.

Of course cups aren’t guaranteed that’s not what I’m saying. I meant I’d be ok with a decline of it meant 2 cups in 3 years.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Of course cups aren’t guaranteed that’s not what I’m saying. I meant I’d be ok with a decline of it meant 2 cups in 3 years.

Ya. I'd take being the Oilers for the next decade if it meant wining the cup this year. That is literally the single goal in hockey. Do what it takes to win and deal with whatever comes of it afterwards while you're drinking beer from the cup.


If anything Columbus should be praised more for taking that go for it approach. Not to mention people massively overrate how "Screwed" they are now. They still have a lot of quality, quality pieces on that team and are still a bubble playoff team.

 

[5280]

Agreed, no clue why the Sakic-lovers keep bringing this stuff up

Hahahaha, yeah you think they’d learn.This is a can of worms for sure. I think it might be a good idea to have this all in one thread, though. I’m sick of reading about it but it stills sucks me in somehow.

You’ll have to admit Sakic has done a pretty good job here, though. It might not have been perfect or exactly how you wanted it or even fast enough of a transition for you, but here we are. Kicking ass and taking names.

 

[Spirits]

Both goalies sucked ass for 1.5 months last year I don’t think anyone is going to argue that. But Grub also was never given a chance to be the starter when it was clear he was brought in to be the starter long term and I think it wasn’t great for him mentally(or any goalie really).

No one here was clamoring for Grubauer to be in net at all. In fact, most posters and fans didn't want him on the ice given his anemic performances until the end of March.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Agreed, no clue why the Sakic-lovers keep bringing this stuff up

I never thought you would ever call Hench a Sakic-lover!

 

[AllAboutAvs]

No one here was clamoring for Grubauer to be in net at all. In fact, most posters and fans didn't want him on the ice given his anemic performances until the end of March.

Not entirely true. I do remember Hench wanting the Avs to go with Gru to see what they had with him. There might have been a few others.

 

[Spirits]

Not entirely true. I do remember Hench wanting the Avs to go with Gru to see what they had with him. There might have been a few others.

Fair enough and I won't bother trying to refute this statement, but the sentiment remains true for the most part. Maybe better stated that hardly anyone was rejoicing that Grubauer was on the team.

The point still stands that we had a defensive/save%/goals against issue that was more glaring than secondary scoring being low for a large part of the season, especially around the TDL. To say today that we should have traded for a high end 2C at the TDL is revisionist history as we were about to have the #1 overall pick (or thereabouts) that summer and were going to be able to improve during the draft.

I think the majority of posters here and our GM/management team were more focused on building through the draft at that time and patiently waiting for our window to open.

 

[cgf]

No clue why you continually take shots at the people are happy with our squad and the way things have worked out. It just seems arrogant to claim to know better when none of us have the complete information.

But the point is Sakic has built a team that is incredibly dynamic and has started this season 5-0 while getting recognition by media as looking like a contender. I’m just going to be humble here and say I like our current GM’s and am happy with the team we are icing. Happy with our prospect depth and our on ice product. And culture that seems to be instilled. And his hiring of Bednar.

I just don’t see a lot of reasons to be pessimistic and if you want to label me as a “Sakic lover” thats fine but it’s not based on some unconditional love for a past player it’s due to the results.

Same reasons you keep phrasing things in a way to take shots at people who don't feel like praising Joe for his farts

We obviously disagree on the definition of smart but I think trading from a position of strength, removing a contract headache for a guy on a near perfect contract is just that. Our team is set up to have the flexibility to stay together and is more balanced because of it. Now all Sakic has to do is wait for a winger to shake loose and hopefully pick one up at the deadline that completes our offensive depth.

Clearly. In my world giving away one of the two competitive advantages that made you near-contenders, just because you're cheap & scared of taking any sort of risk, is very very not-smart. Especially when you do it for a guy who could close Window #1 early if Newhook or Bowers isn't ready to replace him on the cheap in 3 years; after ensuring that Window #1 opens later than it could have. But then again, I prefer actually contending to watching cup-portunities pass by.

(see you're not the only one who can be patronizing with their phrasing)

 

[cgf]

Hahahaha, yeah you think they’d learn.This is a can of worms for sure. I think it might be a good idea to have this all in one thread, though. I’m sick of reading about it but it stills sucks me in somehow.

You’ll have to admit Sakic has done a pretty good job here, though. It might not have been perfect or exactly how you wanted it or even fast enough of a transition for you, but here we are. Kicking ass and taking names.

Oh I certainly do...like I've said (repeatedly) this summer

This isn't a Jogi Löw situation lol; I critique Joe because I think about sports from a management/coaching perspective and because I think Joe's overly risk-averse, not because I think Joe is doing a terrible job & needs to be replaced ASAP. My snarky posts on this topic are usually just a response to a snarky pro-Joe post.

You mean cgf, the guy who even know is going on and on about the Avs needing another top 6 player AND a right handed defenseman? Are you claiming that he only ever wanted a 2C?

Trading away your best (right-shooting) blueliner & third best offensive creator changes your needs ;-)