Ottawa Sun "You Be The Boss Survey"

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Outgunned if he were to get to UFA, ie WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR FOR EK. Your hero can grasp this simple concept...why can't you?

So I say again, if Karlsson signs between 10-11M I will be thrilled he took a hometown discount well below his market value. Sens fans should praise him accordingly.

Not the choice of those who answered this poll...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/aav-for-new-ek-contract.2477449/page-7#post-144780295

You seem to alone on your POV ......... figures.

 

[JD1]

There is a rational case to be made for both points of view.

I think this is the first time I've seen you acknowledge that there are rational points of view other than your own point of view, which to be fair is a viewpoint shared by many.

but thank you for the acknowledgement

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think this is the first time I've seen you acknowledge that there are rational points of view other than your own point of view, which to be fair is a viewpoint shared by many.

but thank you for the acknowledgement

That's a big breakthrough for the Owner, CEO & President of the H&B EM Crew.

 

[JD1]

Then perhaps you should actually read my posts.

I've stated on multiple occassions that i will be ecstatic if EK signs a hometown discount deal.

The current on-going argument with the Melnyk fan club is because I had the audacity to suggest we should acknowledge the sacrifice EK would be making.

sacrifice is an interesting word.

for whatever reason, and EK himself has listed many, Ottawa is where he wants to live.

is he sacrificing if he leaves 2 M AAV on the table? Yes. Financially.

Another way of looking at it is whether he wants to spend the next 8 years of his life living in say Chicago or Detroit. Does he want to sacrifice living somewhere he doesn't want to live for 8 years for money he'll likely never need? That's another form of sacrifice isn't it?

I've been to most of the large US cities and to every Canadian market. I have a skill set that fortunately would enable me to earn a comfortable living anywhere in the developed world. In most of that world I can make more money than I make here and in some places a lot more. But I don't consider it a sacrifice because this is where I choose to live.

it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I hope he stays. And I hope it's around 10M which on our limited budget doesn't break the bank.

 

[Micklebot]

Again, you're comparing a First Line center, to a top pairing D man.

So you're suggesting that in addition to McDavid, EK65 and his agent will also use Kopitar as a "comparable" during the extension negotiations.

Would there be a D man that they might also use?

I'm not sure Kopitar is an ideal comparable, but he does have one of the bigger contracts. Whose the other generational Dmen in the league with 2 norris trophies a couple second place finishes, and some seasons that probably would have added more to 3 finishes if not for injuries, under their belt by age 28?

Sens will look to Subban (which I still don't see as a winning battle), and Karlsson will look to other generational or near generational skaters; Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Ovechkin, maybe Kane.

The only way I see Kopitar sliding in is perhaps under the algebra of Kopitar is to Kane as Subban is to Karlsson. That would probably be a pretty fair argument too.

Now, one thing that gets lost in the % of cap areguments is this: Some players sign a year earlier than they need too. Kopitars % of the cap would be higher if he extending a year out from his contract ending like Kane and Toews did; so had he extended a year out, his % of cap hit would have been around 14% instead of 13.7%. Subban actually signed after a huger jump, so his hit would have 13.99% had he signed the same deal at the earliest opportunity. Karlsson signing now should be going after those higher % compared to Subban and Kopitar because he's signing a full year early, and they are looking forward a year to determine what the market can bear.

 

[thinkwild]

Perhaps one of the best places for EK would be Tampa, on a newly forming dynasty especially with him, in a low tax location, on a beautiful beach, playing with Hedman. I wonder what he would think is a fair offer to play there. Would he give them a better discount than a so called hometown discount here? Whatever he would sign for there, i think we should expect to negotiate for here as fair value.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Coffey and Chelios in case you were wondering

 

[Sensung]

Not the choice of those who answered this poll...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/aav-for-new-ek-contract.2477449/page-7#post-144780295

You seem to alone on your POV ......... figures.

That thread did not discuss MARKET VALUE. This thread did, http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ek-as-a-ufa.2479497/ with unequivocal results.

36 votes and only 2 people felt that 10-11 was market value for EK.

26 people felt that his market value was over 12M dollars...

So 72% of the people share my POV and 5.6% of the people share your POV.

Sorry, but the results are crystal clear and you can either accept them or admit you are being intentionally dishonest.

 

[Sensung]

sacrifice is an interesting word.

for whatever reason, and EK himself has listed many, Ottawa is where he wants to live.

is he sacrificing if he leaves 2 M AAV on the table? Yes. Financially.

Thanks. Nice to see you admit the truth. Hopefully @TNUOC ALUCARD can display the same integrity.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[JD1]

Thanks. Nice to see you admit the truth. Hopefully @TNUOC ALUCARD can display the same integrity.

integrity?

you skipped the context of the post. where's the integrity in that?

there's no question he needs to leave money on the table to sign here.

players leave money on the table all the time

 

[Sensung]

integrity?

you skipped the context of the post. where's the integrity in that?

there's no question he needs to leave money on the table to sign here.

players leave money on the table all the time

I commented on the part that was pertinent to our discussion.

EK can find numerous cities with better weather and tax situations than Ottawa.

I'm very happy he loves Ottawa and married a hometown girl.

I believe he will take a hometown discount and will certainly not be the first player to do so.

It would be nice if the team and his detractors acknowledged that he has been underpaid on his current deal and will be so again if he signs for anything near 10M.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Okay, I can appreciate that, and I will return the favour.


We're all aware of the dollar constraints that the team is under, but just because the team has a budget, that doesn't have an influence on a players value. It may have an influence on the value that the team itself is willing to offer, but the players actual value is dictated by the market, especially when the player is on UFA years.

Structuring contracts in specific manners can be beneficial for the team, but the team generally benefits from front-loaded contracts when players are traded for, since their most expensive years are already paid for. When it comes to signing a player like Karlsson, the breakdown will have no effect on the team in the sense that he will have a full-NMC and isn't going to be traded so the team will pay for his contract from start to finish. If they think there is a chance he will be traded/request a trade in the future, they should rear-load the contract; however, the player/agent may be less interested in that structure.


Micklebot already replied to this stuff so I won't as I would have said nearly the same thing

Some how I guess I'm not being clear enough, so I'll boil it down even further so that my particular point isn't lost (not blaming you). I'm not talking at all about his 'market value', as in what EK could potentially make on the open market. I'm talking about what the Ottawa Senators are able go offer him. What a competitive offer from THIS team would look like.

It is clear that PD will make EK an offer that he thinks is reasonable, and fair. Given the fact that we are a small market team that doesn't pay to the cap it's not likely to be on the upper end of the spectrum of possible offers, and it could be topped by some other team that has more money to spend, should EK turn it down.

We can argue all day about what 'market value' is or could be, but for our purposes as Ottawa Senators fans, the only amount that we should care about is the amount the team can afford to offer one player, for 8 years, into his late 30's, with an eye to be a deep and successful team going forward.

EK has passed his statistical prime if we go by the averages, and so I bears some thought about whether we should be paying him prime dollars for the mid to tail end of his career, especially with so many question marks surround his ability to ever return to his Norris days. I have no doubt he can be a great player regardless, but is he a 10+ million dollar a year player for the next 8 years TO US, a 12+ million?

PD has some hard decisions to make, as does EK. Still, pretty exciting time no matter what we end up doing.

 

[Sensung]

Some how I guess I'm not being clear enough, so I'll boil it down even further so that my particular point isn't lost (not blaming you). I'm not talking at all about his 'market value', as in what EK could potentially make on the open market. I'm talking about what the Ottawa Senators are able go offer him. What a competitive offer from THIS team would look like.

It is clear that PD will make EK an offer that he thinks is reasonable, and fair. Given the fact that we are a small market team that doesn't pay to the cap it's not likely to be on the upper end of the spectrum of possible offers, and it could be topped by some other team that has more money to spend, should EK turn it down.

We can argue all day about what 'market value' is or could be, but for our purposes as Ottawa Senators fans, the only amount that we should care about is the amount the team can afford to offer one player, for 8 years, into his late 30's, with an eye to be a deep and successful team going forward.

EK has passed his statistical prime if we go by the averages, and so I bears some thought about whether we should be paying him prime dollars for the mid to tail end of his career, especially with so many question marks surround his ability to ever return to his Norris days. I have no doubt he can be a great player regardless, but is he a 10+ million dollar a year player for the next 8 years TO US, a 12+ million?

PD has some hard decisions to make, as does EK. Still, pretty exciting time no matter what we end up doing.

If your owner can't afford a budget sufficient to sign your generational player to a market value deal, you need a new owner.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

If your owner can't afford a budget sufficient to sign your generational player to a market value deal, you need a new owner.

Perhaps if the segment of the fan-base, that fence sits on whether to buy tickets, or not..... decide to step up and buy as many tickets (for a season) that they can afford, and or the Team increases their ticket prices to what the market can tolerate ..... then the Teams revenues increase, and the player budget can then be increased, then perhaps everyone wins in the end.

So called "fans" who've decided they hate the owner, and will not spend any money on the team, in any way, can bellyache all they want and say they'll wait until there is a new owner, who will dig into their own pockets to finance the team in a way the fan-base is not doing... are living in a dream world.


To heap all the blame on the team's owner is naive and childish. Ottawa has the most affordable tickets in Canada, and perhaps the league. There are some unique challenges for this franchise, to get paying customers out to Kanata to see games, and there are a number of things that the Franchise owner and management can do to improve that, but the fickle fans need to do their share as well.

 

[Sensung]

This owner has through his actions made it abundantly clear that ticket sales (and revenue) are not directly tied to player budget.

The budget was imposed when the attendance was strong, with the justification that it was temporary as the team re-tooled and that it would increase when the team was ready to compete. The team was (in the owner's own words) "one goal from the cup final" last season and not only saw no increase in the budget, but cuts (while failing to replace key pieces of the team that was not only ready, but actually close to the cup).

Revenues have increased with the new TV deal and the best information we have shows the Sens with 70+ in operating profit for the past decade and a 17M dollar expansion windfall.

If you want to continue to line Melnyk's pockets while he destroys our franchise, knock yourself out. Fans that have been paying attention and make rational choices with their money will continue to withhold their funds until this clown is gone.

Sorry, but the onus is on the owner to change his behaviour if he wants the fans to buy his product, not the other way around.

 

[Heady Topper]

Perhaps if the segment of the fan-base, that fence sits on whether to buy tickets, or not..... decide to step up and buy as many tickets (for a season) that they can afford, and or the Team increases their ticket prices to what the market can tolerate ..... then the Teams revenues increase, and the player budget can then be increased, then perhaps everyone wins in the end.

So called "fans" who've decided they hate the owner, and will not spend any money on the team, in any way, can bellyache all they want and say they'll wait until there is a new owner, who will dig into their own pockets to finance the team in a way the fan-base is not doing... are living in a dream world.


To heap all the blame on the team's owner is naive and childish. Ottawa has the most affordable tickets in Canada, and perhaps the league. There are some unique challenges for this franchise, to get paying customers out to Kanata to see games, and there are a number of things that the Franchise owner and management can do to improve that, but the fickle fans need to do their share as well.

Losers blame others tho.

 

[BonkTastic]

Losers blame others tho.

Yep. Straight from the owner's mouth.

Also: Winners plan to succeed.

 

[Micklebot]

Ottawa has the most affordable tickets in Canada, and perhaps the league.

A bit dated (2013) but Forbes has us at middle of the league.
15) Ottawa Senators - Avg Price: $137.82 - pg.15

There is no way Ottawa tickets are more affordable than Phoenix of Florida

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

A bit dated (2013) but Forbes has us at middle of the league.
15) Ottawa Senators - Avg Price: $137.82 - pg.15

There is no way Ottawa tickets are more affordable than Phoenix of Florida

Here's the problem, in terms of the Senators overall revenues vs expenses.



The Canadian dollar was at it's strongest vs the USD in 2013, than it's been in long time.

One Canadian dollar in August of 2103 would net you $1.02 USD and remained above 90 cents USD for about a year.

Yes, I know Forbes compares the price of tickets in USD, for all franchises ....... but in terms of a teams expenses, Salaries and Travel and equipment prices ....... the weakness of the CDN dollar today, and for the past three seasons, has impacted the Senators franchise negatively.

 

[Micklebot]

Here's the problem, in terms of the Senators overall revenues vs expenses.



The Canadian dollar was at it's strongest vs the USD in 2013, than it's been in long time.

One Canadian dollar in August of 2103 would net you $1.02 USD and remained above 90 cents USD for about a year.

Yes, I know Forbes compares the price of tickets in USD, for all franchises ....... but in terms of a teams expenses, Salaries and Travel and equipment prices ....... the weakness of the CDN dollar today, and for the past three seasons, has impacted the Senators franchise negatively.

Ok, but that has nothing to do with the affordability of the teams. You can't possibly rationalize Ottawa games being more affordable than Florida's Dallas' or Arizona's.

 

[coladin]

Ok, but that has nothing to do with the affordability of the teams. You can't possibly rationalize Ottawa games being more affordable than Florida's Dallas' or Arizona's.

I agree.

I do think what can be rationalized is we are the cheapest in Canada. I think this business model works if it can be at 95% capacity, paid. It should allow to keep your players, the stars, and with all the other revenue streams can field a competitive , winning team.

The other 5% can me strategically moved at bargain basement prices as part of promotions, giveaways, donations, etc...

 

[pzeeman]

Ok, but that has nothing to do with the affordability of the teams. You can't possibly rationalize Ottawa games being more affordable than Florida's Dallas' or Arizona's.

I know it's not what Tnuonc said, and I don't know why he keeps fighting the point but

Most affordable in Canada.

 

[Micklebot]

I agree.

I do think what can be rationalized is we are the cheapest in Canada. I think this business model works if it can be at 95% capacity, paid. It should allow to keep your players, the stars, and with all the other revenue streams can field a competitive , winning team.

The other 5% can me strategically moved at bargain basement prices as part of promotions, giveaways, donations, etc...

We're definitely the cheapest in Canada, no question there.

 

[Heady Topper]

I agree.

I do think what can be rationalized is we are the cheapest in Canada. I think this business model works if it can be at 95% capacity, paid. It should allow to keep your players, the stars, and with all the other revenue streams can field a competitive , winning team.

The other 5% can me strategically moved at bargain basement prices as part of promotions, giveaways, donations, etc...

Yep, except we were well at 95% capacity and were told that we were a budget team, but that cap space would be made available when the time would come to sign our players. Which, not that it's time, is not the case.