Ottawa Sun "You Be The Boss Survey"

[pzeeman]

Man, it's absolutely amazing how that talk at the outdoor game completely soured any and all faith people might have had in Eugene Melnyk. Imagine if he hadn't talked about cutting player salary to the bone, or relocating. This place would be so boring right now...

 

[harrisb]

Man, it's absolutely amazing how that talk at the outdoor game completely soured any and all faith people might have had in Eugene Melnyk. Imagine if he hadn't talked about cutting player salary to the bone, or relocating. This place would be so boring right now...

It was the straw that broke the camel's back. It started with lowballing Alfredsson and having him walk and snowballed with signing players with high caps and low salaries followed by selling draft picks for cash. Not replacing LTIR players while talking about what our cap hit is was just pure misdirection. He opened his yap on the biggest stage of our season and made our fanbase look like fools, we simply snapped after all the crap he's been building up. What's ironic is while building up crap he's been tearing down the team.

His biggest revenue stream right now comes from the team, name another owner who's main income comes from the team? This isn't a question directed at you, more the EM defenders

 

[coladin]

Yep, except we were well at 95% capacity and were told that we were a budget team, but that cap space would be made available when the time would come to sign our players. Which, not that it's time, is not the case.

Paid attendance. Don't know why this keeps coming up. The house was papered for decades. We all know this, right?

Lately we are seeing paid attendance, which has exposed this fanbase ,somewhat, to ridicule nationally. We don't have to talk about reasons/excuses. but if this team has 95% paid attendance, similar to other Canadian markets, I am confident there would be less money issues.

 

[harrisb]

Paid attendance. Don't know why this keeps coming up. The house was papered for decades. We all know this, right?

Lately we are seeing paid attendance, which has exposed this fanbase ,somewhat, to ridicule nationally. We don't have to talk about reasons/excuses. but if this team has 95% paid attendance, similar to other Canadian markets, I am confident there would be less money issues.

How many were papered each year, link? Also, those free ticket folks brought their own food and walked to the arena plus made sure they didn't buy any programs or memorabilia. Oh ya I forgot, that's Sens Sports and Entertainment who makes that money...who owns them again?

Been to dozens, possibly over a hundred games with free tickets, never once have I managed to not dip in to my own pocket...

 

[Sensung]

Paid attendance. Don't know why this keeps coming up. The house was papered for decades. We all know this, right?

Lately we are seeing paid attendance, which has exposed this fanbase ,somewhat, to ridicule nationally. We don't have to talk about reasons/excuses. but if this team has 95% paid attendance, similar to other Canadian markets, I am confident there would be less money issues.

Do you have any info on the % of giveaways in other markets, league or Canadian?

How about a comparison of the TV contracts?

 

[coladin]

How many were papered each year, link? Also, those free ticket folks brought their own food and walked to the arena plus made sure they didn't buy any programs or memorabilia. Oh ya I forgot, that's Sens Sports and Entertainment who makes that money...who owns them again?

Been to dozens, possibly over a hundred games with free tickets, never once have I managed to not dip in to my own pocket...

Don't start that link shit with me, Cyril Leeder stated this years ago. Thousands per game, not sure why people have a hard time believing this?

It is great that the freebies resulted in concessions/parking, but at the end of the day, you cannot give away your product. Who does that? It is incumbent on the organization to find a way to get people to buy tickets, even at very low prices, in order to run this business properly. In Tampa, anyone showing up with a student card, i think an hour before the game get to sit anywhere for 20$. So, if there is a will, there is a way.

 

[Micklebot]

The significant papering of tickets started in the 2009-10 season, and was cut back or ended between 2014 and 2016 from what I understand. It was reveled by a leaked internal memo back in 2009 that Ottawa went from around 800-900 giveaways to roughly 3 times that.

Here's a link to the citizen article that broke the news.
PressReader.com - Connecting People Through News

Leeder was saying at the time (back in Dec 2009) they were still middle of the pack in paid attendance.

So what happened to kill attendance? Performance is part of it; after being a playoff team for 16 straight years, the year prior was the Hartsburg year where we missed, and that style of play is sure to kill attendance. On top of that, the offseason leading into the down year included the Heatley debacle. So, crappy product plus star player fleeing the city and a terrible return.

Leader explained a couple things with the numbers; he said they were giving away 6 free tickets to STH if they renewed by a certain date (the article said the STH base was right around 10k that year, so max if everyone renewed on time that's a little over 1400 free tickets per game on that promotion. Those types of free tickets had been counted as paid in prior years (it's arguably a discount as opposed to true freebies).

They also said prior years free tickets went from under 5% of the seats to just shy of 16% to start that year.

Now, how many ticket giveaways did we actually have between 2010-11 season to the 2016-17 season when we know there was a full stop on giveaways? Idk, I've yet to see any confirmed numbers on that. There was talk of scaling back giveaways as early as 2013-14, I suspect that was in part prompted by stronger paid attendance, as 2011-12 was a pretty good year, and 2012-13 likely had a bit of a bump from Karlsson winning the Norris, and Spezza having a darn solid year leading into the season, but the lockout makes that year a bit odd to figure. 2013-14 had lots of promise before going off the rails early (kind of like this year).

 

[Heady Topper]

Paid attendance. Don't know why this keeps coming up. The house was papered for decades. We all know this, right?

Lately we are seeing paid attendance, which has exposed this fanbase ,somewhat, to ridicule nationally. We don't have to talk about reasons/excuses. but if this team has 95% paid attendance, similar to other Canadian markets, I am confident there would be less money issues.

Fair point. Although we don't know one way or another what the difference is between what was and what is in terms of paid attendance. I'll give you that it wasn't all paid before, but you can't say that paid attendance hasn't dropped (for various reasons, namely, ownership).

 

[Heady Topper]

Don't start that link **** with me, Cyril Leeder stated this years ago. Thousands per game, not sure why people have a hard time believing this?

It is great that the freebies resulted in concessions/parking, but at the end of the day, you cannot give away your product. Who does that? It is incumbent on the organization to find a way to get people to buy tickets, even at very low prices, in order to run this business properly. In Tampa, anyone showing up with a student card, i think an hour before the game get to sit anywhere for 20$. So, if there is a will, there is a way.

This board requires links though. If you can't can't provide them, you're wrong, and if you can and you're right, we'll ignore it and create a diversion to something else to keep the narrative going.

 

[Micklebot]

This board requires links though. If you can't can't provide them, you're wrong, and if you can and you're right, we'll ignore it and create a diversion to something else to keep the narrative going.

For what it's worth, the link I provided gives the number for the 2008-09 season (895 per game, not including 2 tickets given as freebies to STH who renewed by a certain date), and Oct to mid Dec of the 2009-10 season (~3047 per game including 6 tickets given as freebies to any STH who renewed by a certain date). It also put us at 19th in paid attendance (down from 7th the year prior).

Now, Leeder mentioned the numbers could be misleading, as a good chunk of the 6 bonus tickets per renewing STH were used in that first half of the season, so by end of year, he expected the average to drop significantly, and mentioned the sample had fewer of the premium price games (like Toronto and Mtl) which presumably are typically higher portion of paid attendance

 

[coladin]

For what it's worth, the link I provided gives the number for the 2008-09 season (895 per game, not including 2 tickets given as freebies to STH who renewed by a certain date), and Oct to mid Dec of the 2009-10 season (~3047 per game including 6 tickets given as freebies to any STH who renewed by a certain date). It also put us at 19th in paid attendance (down from 7th the year prior).

Now, Leeder mentioned the numbers could be misleading, as a good chunk of the 6 bonus tickets per renewing STH were used in that first half of the season, so by end of year, he expected the average to drop significantly, and mentioned the sample had fewer of the premium price games (like Toronto and Mtl) which presumably are typically higher portion of paid attendance

Thousands, basically. He has also stated it on the radio. Suffice to say, paid attendance being similar to other markets and the ability for this franchise to compete would be much better. When I was at the Phoenix game in 2016-2017, there were 11,061 there. My ticket agent was there too and I told him terrible this is. He responded that it is paid attendance which would have been in the 13,500 -14K range, so not bad for an early season game against a crap team. he aslo said that not only were they not papering the tickets, but staff had to buy tickets to games as well.

We averaged 15,829 this year, I think I saw. That would have been around 18K papered, imo. Consistent with previous attendance years, which means maybe that is where this team is at, 16K or so, paid attendance.

 

[Micklebot]

Thousands, basically. He has also stated it on the radio. Suffice to say, paid attendance being similar to other markets and the ability for this franchise to compete would be much better. When I was at the Phoenix game in 2016-2017, there were 11,061 there. My ticket agent was there too and I told him terrible this is. He responded that it is paid attendance which would have been in the 13,500 -14K range, so not bad for an early season game against a crap team. he aslo said that not only were they not papering the tickets, but staff had to buy tickets to games as well.

We averaged 15,829 this year, I think I saw. That would have been around 18K papered, imo. Consistent with previous attendance years, which means maybe that is where this team is at, 16K or so, paid attendance.

For what it's worth, 14k in paid attendance (Ottawa from Nov-Dec of 2009-10 numbers) was 19th in the league in paid attendance according to the leaked memo. I really haven't heard or seen anything admitting to hard numbers for giveaways aside from responses to the leaked memo years ago, so I really don't know how long the trend continued so strongly. I know Season ticket sales were up leading into the lockout year so my suspicion is that the rebounded from the 2009-10 season after a strong 2011-12 season. The 3000 per game numbers really seem to be the lowpoint in a small sample.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think a smaller, more intimate, arena is required. Swathes of empty seats is not only embarrassing, but it's an atmosphere killer. Perhaps something closer to 16000 would be best.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Thousands, basically. He has also stated it on the radio. Suffice to say, paid attendance being similar to other markets and the ability for this franchise to compete would be much better. When I was at the Phoenix game in 2016-2017, there were 11,061 there. My ticket agent was there too and I told him terrible this is. He responded that it is paid attendance which would have been in the 13,500 -14K range, so not bad for an early season game against a crap team. he aslo said that not only were they not papering the tickets, but staff had to buy tickets to games as well.

We averaged 15,829 this year, I think I saw. That would have been around 18K papered, imo. Consistent with previous attendance years, which means maybe that is where this team is at, 16K or so, paid attendance.

Staff has had to pay for tickets since the 1993-94 season.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I think a smaller, more intimate, arena is required. Swathes of empty seats is not only embarrassing, but it's an atmosphere killer. Perhaps something closer to 16000 would be best.

Building a smaller arena in a more accessible location would be really really dumb.

 

[Heady Topper]

I think a smaller, more intimate, arena is required. Swathes of empty seats is not only embarrassing, but it's an atmosphere killer. Perhaps something closer to 16000 would be best.

Agreed

 

[Micklebot]

I think a smaller, more intimate, arena is required. Swathes of empty seats is not only embarrassing, but it's an atmosphere killer. Perhaps something closer to 16000 would be best.

16k seems too small to me. Nothing better than playoff games with 20.5K packing the arena back in 2007.

 

[Ice-Tray]

16k seems too small to me. Nothing better than playoff games with 20.5K packing the arena back in 2007.

Sure, but nothing worse than not selling out last year in the ECF. I think a Winnipeg sized arena, maybe 16500 instead would be ideal. It would mean real sellouts, ticket scarcity, and a solid crowd outside in a viewing area for the playoffs.

The reality seems that the market can't really support a paid 19000 on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be a defensive issue, it's a small market, and the arena should reflect that. I wouldn't be surprise if a packed house helped the in game experience big time in an of itself.

Building a smaller arena in a more accessible location would be really really dumb.

Whether you like it or not it's a small market, no matter where the arena is. Attendance has been papered for ever and the paid crowd has most likely been around 16000 (see previous discussion). It will be more accessible for some, less for others, and a lack parking. Starting from zero it would be a smart move to look at the new arenas in Canada's other small markets and look what they have done.

Also, you know that you don't have to be a dick in every post right?

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Sure, but nothing worse than not selling out last year in the ECF. I think a Winnipeg sized arena, maybe 16500 instead would be ideal. It would mean real sellouts, ticket scarcity, and a solid crowd outside in a viewing area for the playoffs.

The reality seems that the market can't really support a paid 19000 on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be a defensive issue, it's a small market, and the arena should reflect that. I wouldn't be surprise if a packed house helped the in game experience big time in an of itself.



Whether you like it or not it's a small market, no matter where the arena is. Attendance has been papered for ever and the paid crowd has most likely been around 16000 (see previous discussion). It will be more accessible for some, less for others, and a lack parking. Starting from zero it would be a smart move to look at the new arenas in Canada's other small markets and look what they have done.

Also, you know that you don't have to be a dick in every post right?

You don't live in the city, do you?

It will be accessible to WAY more people. By the time the arena would be built, the light rail will go all the way to Bayshore. Its basically only Kanata and beyond who it will be less accessible to and even then, TONS of people make the longer trek to Landsdowne for RedBlacks games from West Ottawa.

Ottawa is way bigger than Winnipeg. Its denser in population and growing at a higher rate. Like the NCR is almost double that of the Winnipeg metro area.

Building anything less than 18,000 is just leaving money on the table. Winnipeg wouldn't have that small an arena if they could help it as well. That was built a long time before the Jets came to town in 2004. I wouldn't be looking at that as a comparable at all.

The Videotron centre has 18,250 and that's Quebec city. The new Rogers center in Edmonton (also smaller than Ottawa) is 18,500.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You don't live in the city, do you?

It will be accessible to WAY more people. By the time the arena would be built, the light rail will go all the way to Bayshore. Its basically only Kanata and beyond who it will be less accessible to and even then, TONS of people make the longer trek to Landsdowne for RedBlacks games from West Ottawa.

Ottawa is way bigger than Winnipeg. Its denser in population and growing at a higher rate. Like the NCR is almost double that of the Winnipeg metro area.

Building anything less than 18,000 is just leaving money on the table. Winnipeg wouldn't have that small an arena if they could help it as well. That was built a long time before the Jets came to town in 2004. I wouldn't be looking at that as a comparable at all.

The Videotron centre has 18,250 and that's Quebec city. The new Rogers center in Edmonton (also smaller than Ottawa) is 18,500.

Thanks for taking the time to give a full answer.

I don't live in Ottawa, I've spent most of my life there and am aware of the various parts of the city and where the arena is to be located. I'm also aware of all of the LTR talk as well. Kanata makes up a large part of the fanbase, and while I agree that a downtownish arena would be more accessible in general, I'm not sure folks should be going ahead an pencilling in larger crowds by default.

Winnipeg may be smaller population-wise, but more of them buy tickets, they pay more for their tickets, and they sell out their building. Ottawa, a much larger city as you point out, sells fewer tickets, has cheaper tickets, and can't sell out regularly, including key games in the playoffs.

I'm not sure that 18000 or less isn't leaving any money on the table, it's creating some scarcity the proper way (not tarping) and allows Ottawa's relatively small fanbase to sell out they building regularly.

Personally I look at a fanbase that has not really been able to sell out the arena consistently without thousands of free tickets, and I'm not sure why you'd want to build an arena that is too big for the fan base. At the moment it's EM, before it's mediocre teams, before that it's... There will be another excuse coming for why fans opt not to buy tickets and we'll continue to see thousands of empty seats. We don't have all of the corporate support that other markets do.

Anyways, do we know what the proposed arena seats?

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Thanks for taking the time to give a full answer.

I don't live in Ottawa, I've spent most of my life there and am aware of the various parts of the city and where the arena is to be located. I'm also aware of all of the LTR talk as well. Kanata makes up a large part of the fanbase, and while I agree that a downtownish arena would be more accessible in general, I'm not sure folks should be going ahead an pencilling in larger crowds by default.

Winnipeg may be smaller population-wise, but more of them buy tickets, they pay more for their tickets, and they sell out their building. Ottawa, a much larger city as you point out, sells fewer tickets, has cheaper tickets, and can't sell out regularly, including key games in the playoffs.

I'm not sure that 18000 or less isn't leaving any money on the table, it's creating some scarcity the proper way (not tarping) and allows Ottawa's relatively small fanbase to sell out they building regularly.

Personally I look at a fanbase that has not really been able to sell out the arena consistently without thousands of free tickets, and I'm not sure why you'd want to build an arena that is too big for the fan base. At the moment it's EM, before it's mediocre teams, before that it's... There will be another excuse coming for why fans opt not to buy tickets and we'll continue to see thousands of empty seats. We don't have all of the corporate support that other markets do.

Anyways, do we know what the proposed arena seats?

I don't really know what to tell you if you can't understand the difference of a remote location on the periphery of city limits with no transit and a downtown arena located 10 minutes walking from where almost everyone in the city with disposable income work with a major transit stop.

The biggest reason people don't go to games in Kanata is the location and the horrible inconvenience of the whole production. I'm saying that as someone who lives in Kanata. When I go out, I don't want to be in freaking Kanata. I go to Preston, Elgin, Bank, the Market, Chinatown etc.

Ottawa is a hockey town through and through. Nothing else even comes close. It might not be a 'Sens' town but that's cause its never felt like the Sens were part of Ottawa proper. This would change everything. Have you ever been on Elgin st during the playoffs when the Sens are playing?

 

[Ice-Tray]

I don't really know what to tell you if you can't understand the difference of a remote location on the periphery of city limits with no transit and a downtown arena located 10 minutes walking from where almost everyone in the city with disposable income work with a major transit stop.

The biggest reason people don't go to games in Kanata is the location and the horrible inconvenience of the whole production. I'm saying that as someone who lives in Kanata. When I go out, I don't want to be in freaking Kanata. I go to Preston, Elgin, Bank, the Market, Chinatown etc.

Ottawa is a hockey town through and through. Nothing else even comes close. It might not be a 'Sens' town but that's cause its never felt like the Sens were part of Ottawa proper. This would change everything. Have you ever been on Elgin st during the playoffs when the Sens are playing?

Yup, been to Elgin st. during playoffs, and yes I understand the difficult concepts you're presenting, blah, blah, blah....

I guess we'll all see how it goes one way or another. Hopefully you put your money where your mouth is consistently, you and a few thousand more every game.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Yup, been to Elgin st. during playoffs, and yes I understand the difficult concepts you're presenting, blah, blah, blah....

I guess we'll all see how it goes one way or another. Hopefully you put your money where your mouth is consistently, you and a few thousand more every game.

Whatever. I spent thousands on season tickets for years. I'm done with this owner. Easy for you to throw shade from the otherside of the country. Pretty low hanging fruit really. I'll renew my tickets the second Melnyk sells or dies whether the arena is downtown or in Kanata.

I probably would actually go to a few games a year though even with Melnyk as owner with a downtown arena. At least at that point it'd be worth my time and money.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Whatever. I spent thousands on season tickets for years. I'm done with this owner. Easy for you to throw shade from the otherside of the country. Pretty low hanging fruit really. I'll renew my tickets the second Melnyk sells or dies whether the arena is downtown or in Kanata.

I probably would actually go to a few games a year though even with Melnyk as owner with a downtown arena. At least at that point it'd be worth my time and money.

Yeah, I have a more objective opinion than you do, given that I moved away, I get that. Probably why I'm not as defensive as you are about seeing the fan base for what it is, instead of making excuses and taking offence.

Claiming to be done is just another example of what I'm talking about, and you want a giant arena downtown, meanwhile you're done going to games?

Makes a ton of sense.

It would be nice if all these fans "who are done with EM" would spread their cheer elsewhere. It's stale.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Yeah, I have a more objective opinion than you do, given that I moved away, I get that. Probably why I'm not as defensive as you are about seeing the fan base for what it is, instead of making excuses and taking offence.

Claiming to be done is just another example of what I'm talking about, and you want a giant arena downtown, meanwhile you're done going to games?

Makes a ton of sense.

It would be nice if all these fans "who are done with EM" would spread their cheer elsewhere. It's stale.

Yes. The world needs to support more shitty business practices. That's what we're really missing.