OT: Other Colorado Sports: Broncos, Nuggets, Rockies...II

[Pokecheque]

Poke - clearly you have a dog in this fight. I do not. I promise you I am no Kobe apologist. I've never met the dude so I can not speak to him as a person. I remember the rape situation well and all that went with it. Was it rape? Maybe? 60-40 yes????
Here is all I can say--- was a life in Jail the best situation here? Even if he deserved it? I am not so sure. Especially since his baby girls were born, the man changed. He LOVED his girls. From this love he was one of the most prominent promoters of women's sport. He empowered millions of women to follow and chase their dream in all sports. He changed the life of millions for the better. If he was in jail (where perhaps he belonged) he could not have done that.
Maybe the guy really is a DB. He was when he was younger. IDK. I can respect your unequivocal despise of him.

On a side note - thank you for your Game day Threads - they are BOSS!!! I rarely post obviously but I read HF at least 360 days per year since I joined.

Thanks for the kind words. I really do appreciate that.

Hopefully this is the last thing I say on this subject, because I'm growing tired of it.

For the record, I do not have a "dog" in this fight. But I try to be the best ally and feminist that I can. Working in mental health and just plain listening to women really has opened my eyes to my own past behavior and perceptions, and how rape culture and toxic masculinity are real and need to be addressed. We can all stand to be better. Also, I have tried very hard not to venerate sports figures and other celebrities. In the end, they are only human. I do not begrudge people mourning the passing of a great athlete they idolized. But what I do begrudge is people bullying and shouting down anyone who brings up the fact that he was brought up on rape charges, escaped possible jail time through less-than-stellar legal tactics, and all but admitted that what he did was not consensual. That's called rape, and he admitted to it only after charges were dropped. So please can the "60/40/maybe" stuff. He did it. Now we just need to deal with that and frame it within the legend of a man who did indeed do some good in this world. You don't get to throw out the bad and focus on the good, especially in this case.

I don't necessarily "despise" Kobe. I never cared for him, even before the rape trial. Where other people saw a charismatic and genteel individual, I saw a brazen and entitled brat. That's my opinion, and I'm not going to pretend I liked the guy when I didn't. Maybe he got better as he got older, I don't know...and I don't care. I walked away from the NBA when he and Shaq were ruling it, because they just bored the living hell outta me. Also, the Nuggets were really bad back then. Thankfully I feel pro basketball is a lot more fun to watch, and not just because the Nuggets are once again good (and I'm still nowhere near as regular a watcher as I was when I was a kid in the '80s). I will admit that he was a extraordinarily talented and intelligent man, which leaves me a tad disappointed that he did not find the wherewithal and restraint within himself to keep from doing what he knew was wrong WITH A TEENAGE GIRL that fateful day in Colorado. And I don't care HOW much he did in the community to empower women, that doesn't erase what he did, nor does it forgive it. He did nothing on behalf of the victim other than pay her a lot of money (but not before silencing her forever with an NDA) and simply moved on with his life. The community work was nice, and he should be remembered for it, but it should not discount what he also did to ruin the life of a young woman in Colorado.

It's funny. I used to like Patrick Kane a lot, even after that idiotic cabbie assault. He was such a fun player to watch. But then I saw the truth about him in subsequent incidents afterwards, including the rape accusation. I don't believe Kobe to be a bad man, but he did do a very bad thing. Kane, on the other hand, is rotten to the core in my opinion. If he should suffer an untimely death before me, I won't even bother saying kind words, unlike Kobe.

Oh, one last thing: Being a very talented athlete who did great things for the community does not make you exempt from criminal behavior. So if the trial had gone ahead and he were found guilty, you're damned right he should have gone to jail. He didn't though. And FTR, someone committing one rape does not usually go to jail "for life." Mike Tyson was released after three years of a six year sentence. Even serial rapist Bill Cosby did not go to jail "for life" but he will probably spend what little is left of his life incarcerated.

 

[AW8]

Poke - a couple a things and then I too will bow out.

1- I did say " a life in prison" not "life in prison" though I can admit it kinda read as the latter not the former.
2- I am very much with you on most everything you were saying. I was merely pointing out that Kobe used his second chance (warranted or not) to better himself and others. From all accounts he did not take his freedom for granted. But to be fair it really was not until his girls were born that he made a change.
3- In a court of law based on the evidence (at least what was public at that time), Kobe easily would have gotten off, but likely would have lost a civil suit. The reputation of the young lady would have been dragged through the mud (it was to begin with, but I mean to an even grander scale) , and no person (victim especially) deserves that, so I can see why she settled out of court.

 

[Bonzai12]

The accusers father was my boss when I lived in the mtns so I definitely have a horse in this race.

I’ve been purposefully not saying a single word here but I’m glad this is getting talked about because I remember Kobe in a completely different light than the glory stories that are being passed around the media right now.

thank you Hasbro and Poke for standing up and saying something.

 

[Babel Salamander]

Kobe Bryant’s Disturbing Rape Case: The DNA Evidence, the Accuser’s Story, and the Half-Confession

If the details presented here aren't completely fabricated, then this story should not be getting swept under the rug.

 

[AW8]

Bonzai - sometimes we forget that real people are people even if we have never met them. I have never been a fan of Kobe, and his 2003 time in Vail was a major reason why. I was only pointing out that in the years after, he changed as a person and did a lot of good.
I can understand completely why any person with a dog in the fight would have strong feelings either way. If it was my daughter i would legit be F the guy, i dont care how much you changed and helped change others life, you destroyed mine. I do not begrudge any one that is in the rot in hell belief.

 

[Hasbro]

Kobe Bryant’s Disturbing Rape Case: The DNA Evidence, the Accuser’s Story, and the Half-Confession

If the details presented here aren't completely fabricated, then this story should not be getting swept under the rug.

And if you are the kind of person who has doubts about the case: fine! However, you have to take issue with his defense repeatedly leaking her name, characterizing her as schitzophrenic, a fame hunter, or promiscuous and taking the OJ play book and wanting to put the state of Colorado on trial for his misdeeds.

 

[AW8]

I can not disagree.

 

[henchman21]

And if you are the kind of person who has doubts about the case: fine! However, you have to take issue with his defense repeatedly leaking her name, characterizing her as schitzophrenic, a fame hunter, or promiscuous and taking the OJ play book and wanting to put the state of Colorado on trial for his misdeeds.

Sadly it is a pretty common tactic used in trials. Character assassination was their best path to winning and it worked. It wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last time that happens. Lawyers like those are pretty much the scourge of the earth, and they tend to make the most cash because they win.

Life is all shades of grey and there is basically no black and white. I don't pretend to know what happened between them and whether or not it was consensual. Really, at this point, only one person knows the whole truth there. Everybody else is sifting through information to create an opinion.

 

[Babel Salamander]

Life is all shades of grey and there is basically no black and white. I don't pretend to know what happened between them and whether or not it was consensual. Really, at this point, only one person knows the whole truth there. Everybody else is sifting through information to create an opinion.

You can say that about almost any rape allegation. We need to be having conversations about how to treat people who come forward with allegations better.

 

[Pokecheque]

I’ll say again: He. Admitted. To. It. There is no shade of gray here. He raped her.

 

[henchman21]

You can say that about almost any rape allegation. We need to be having conversations about how to treat people who come forward with allegations better.

100% agree.

I’ll say again: He. Admitted. To. It. There is no shade of gray here. He raped her.

No he didn't. He admitted to having sex with her and saying he had a kink, he also settled a civil case... there was no admission of guilt.

 

[Pokecheque]

Well, he did say that looking back that he felt it may not have been consensual but he thought it was at the time. If that doesn’t count as a tacit admission to you that’s fine, but it is to me and quite a few other people.

 

[henchman21]

Well, he did say that looking back that he felt it may not have been consensual but he thought it was at the time. If that doesn’t count as a tacit admission to you that’s fine, but it is to me and quite a few other people.

But that is not what he said. Here is the statement:

"First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colorado.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado."

That doesn't scream tacit admission to me, it screams of a lawyer crafted statement to smooth things after their tactics.

 

[Pokecheque]

It does to me (and again, I’m not the only one here), and anyone who is still living in denial over that incident is taking an easy out. The challenge should be how one mitigates their love of the guy in the face of something terrible like that.

I’ll admit I have taken re-examination of some of my past heroes in light of new information. I am no longer a strict Bob Hartley adherent. I don’t think the world of John Elway like I did when I was a kid, but that hasn’t really taken away from their accomplishments, just taught me that I shouldn’t be so quick to append great character to great athletes/coaches.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

It does to me (and again, I’m not the only one here), and anyone who is still living in denial over that incident is taking an easy out. The challenge should be how one mitigates their love of the guy in the face of something terrible like that.

I’ll admit I have taken re-examination of some of my past heroes in light of new information. I am no longer a strict Bob Hartley adherent. I don’t think the world of John Elway like I did when I was a kid, but that hasn’t really taken away from their accomplishments, just taught me that I shouldn’t be so quick to append great character to great athletes/coaches.

One of the toughest things for me with this conversation is how should people be treated after their "sins" have been outed. If they show true contrition, are we allowed to still like them and wish them the best. Or do we just simply vilify them for life? How do we allow people to grow and become better than they once were if we immediately always call for someone to be kicked out of the game, off the team or whatever.

A guy (like ROR) can be fired from many jobs for having a DUI charge against him. But the NHL and the Sabers didn't do that. As sad as it is to say it, many people have domestic violations that do not get fired. I totally understand that athletes perform in an entertainment business and as such, the public is much more likely to seek demonizing them because the same public places them on a pedestal based on their athletic ability.

I feel like many people see these things like a zero sum situation. I simply have a hard time doing that. I guess I just tend to allow myself to have appreciation for flawed-character people who do show growth and a willingness to set things right.

 

[Pokecheque]

There are no easy answers here, I'll be the first person to say that. I still wrestle in my mind with the fact that I still listen to and love Michael Jackson's music. It's hard to reframe that love by separating what I know about the man and his now-sullied legacy. It's even worse with Bill Cosby, who was a vital part of pop culture the whole time I was growing up. I can't even bring myself to watch anything he used to be in. And as I've said before, at least a couple of high-profile athletes/coaches I idolized I've been forced to re-examine in recent years.

I don't wish to rehash O'Reilly...I'll just very quickly say that I don't like him in the slightest, but for much different reasons than Kobe.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with thinking highly of Kobe or marveling at what he did on the court. But please don't join the finger-waggling chorus any time it's brought up that he was credibly accused of rape in the early 2000s. Don't shout back "THIS ISN'T THE TIME" because there simply has NEVER been a "good time," nor will there ever be, to talk about this very difficult and complicated subject. Please defend survivors against anyone who wants to sweep them under the rug through bullying and intimidation. Please acknowledge the fact that Kobe Bryant the man was a hell of a lot more complicated (and not anywhere nearly as perfect) than Kobe Bryant the legend.

 

[JWK]

Being tied with the Astros* means we're doing something good right?

 

[JWK]

MPJ is so damn nice, let Tim Connelly draft for the Rockies.

 

[Babel Salamander]

MPJ is so damn nice, let Tim Connelly draft for the Rockies.

And Nuggets fans will get to go through this again sometime in the near future with Bol Bol, who has looked really good in G-League stints this year.

 

[JWK]

And Nuggets fans will get to go through this again sometime in the near future with Bol Bol, who has looked really good in G-League stints this year.

I have higher expectations for Vando than Bol Bol tbh.

Really though, it must be nice to have amazing depth that you can take bunch of 5* guys out of HS that fell because of injuries and develop them. Can’t say enough good things about the Nuggets front office.

 

[AW8]

Nuggets are in a good position in that they do have depth and quality starters. This has allowed them to take some chances these last couple drafts. MPJ and Bol Bol were both very high risk but very high reward. Fortunately they both are working out so far.

 

[Pokecheque]

Being tied with the Astros* means we're doing something good right?

I dunno...I mean, the Rox' ability to develop talent is one of the few things they appear to be doing right. Arenado, Blackmon, Story, Freeland, Gray, that's already a pretty good track record. Dahl is still a good player, unfortunately not the star people were hoping for because his body is made of balsa wood. Brendan Rodgers, Ryan McMahon, even Garrett Hampson all appear to be viable prospects.

No, developing talent doesn't appear to be the issue. But no team in any sport can just build completely from within. You have to bring in players both via free agency and trade. And in THAT regard, Bridich has been an abject failure. He has been horrendous with his free agent signings and...to be honest, I don't really remember the last time he pulled off a big trade.

I am not necessarily one of those who think the Rockies should try and spend their way out of their current issue. They just need smarter people making the decisions as to how and upon whom they need to spend their limited resources. Bridich is absolutely NOT that guy. And what stings is that I think you could get the hell rid of him, keep the draft/development guys, and under an actually-competent GM this club would have a reasonable chance at success.

But...of course...the biggest issue is not the GM. It's the guy paying him.

 

[Babel Salamander]

I have higher expectations for Vando than Bol Bol tbh.

It's always a bit of a crap shoot to project the potential of players, but Bol Bol has a way higher ceiling than Vandy. He's definitely got a better shooting stroke, probably a better rim protector (he had this ridiculous, highlight reel block in the G League where he just block snatched a shot out of the air). Vandy has elite rebounding potential but Bol is good on that end too. Main question with Bol is if he can stay healthy with that awkward looking frame of his, but if he can overcome that, he's one of the more uniquely talented prospects to come around in a while, and he's joining a group that already has some of the more unique talents in the league.

 

[AvsWraith]

MPJ is so damn nice, let Tim Connelly draft for the Rockies.

I've actually like what I've seen from Dozier too.

 

[The Merchant]

Damn. Watching Lebron's reactions through these ceremonies has been heartwrenching.