Speculation: Offseason Thread XVIII - Soon September & a new NYR member?

[Oscar Lindberg]

Folin from Min could be a good fit. Min has really bad forward depth.

Minnesota could be a fit, Folin wouldn't be the player coming back though. He's waivers eligible according to GeneralFanager

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Is that Nuke or Honka or Nuke & Honka?

Nuke on his own would have to be attached to a MASSIVE freakin' plus to get MZA.



How did that "no instant gratification" work out when you wanted to trade half the team for Hertl? That surely would have helped us tremendously if management followed your "outside the box" thinking.

If we had listened to your retool on that one (and many others) the only thing we would have been 1-2 years away from is the first time in NHL history a professional team being relegated to a lower league due to sucking.

Nuke + Honka

 

[bernmeister]

The day bern stops his proposals is the day I quit this place for good.

not to imply anything vs everybody else, but it is the posts by
BBKers
bluenote 13
Crease
Dragoon
Eco's Bones
RangerBoy
Savant
and Tawnos

that make this worthwhile
even having to endure certain detractors repeatedly while not verbally tearing them a new one

and fear not

bernmeister is a stand up guy, and admits when he is wrong
WHEN THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, NOT WHEN DETRACTORS SAY SO

and otherwise I give as good as I get and then some.

 

[bernmeister]

Exactly. No thought is ever given to if the slew of prospects acquired will develop, he just assumes they will.

The most hilarious is the AHL-level state of our defense when he's done with his barrage of unrealistic trades. Which he attempts to justify by stating they will be okay after some "growing pains."

If generally higher quality prospects are acquired, percentage wise, they work out.

 

[bernmeister]

The ironic part is that he always will respond with "disagree" and then chastise you for not being willing to "think outside the box". In the end, he has been proven wrong more often than not.

Remember when he wanted to give up half the team for Hertl? The kid who was a guaranteed 50 goal scorer and offering up Stepan and whoever else for this kid was in the best interest of the Rangers in the long run? The kid that has yet to score 50 goals over 2.5 NHL seasons or even hit 50 points in a single season.

This is one of multiple times where in the long term, Berns proposals would have left us fielding teams with AHL level talent because he wanted to trade all of our young talent for some random player that never pans out the way he expected.

"disagree"

nice to see my quotes are back on they obviously weren't working last coupla posts

O gee, how improper of me to be SO FRIGGIN POLITE

and then chastise you for not being willing to "think outside the box".

tell it like it is, let your conscience be your guide
not original, but applies

bold - disagree, Hertl value decreased since he was injured, but still worth more than Stepan, still has more upside than Stepan and is more versatile

underline
obviously not everything I ever said was correct.
but I consider my posts more correct than incorrect, overall

some of us wanted to trade Kreider Miller Skjei I said, no no no.
I called for moving Girardi, we definitely should have done that
I leaned for keeping Staal, but that was before his injuries
and I have pushed for moving Stepan

you want to hate me fine
but when all is said and done, the return {I expect}we will get {assuming Gorton does not turn into Slats and do a Talbot on our ass}is worth more than keeping him
we will see and remind me, since you want to go here, to laugh in your face.

How did that "no instant gratification" work out when you wanted to trade half the team for Hertl? That surely would have helped us tremendously if management followed your "outside the box" thinking.

If we had listened to your retool on that one (and many others) the only thing we would have been 1-2 years away from is the first time in NHL history a professional team being relegated to a lower league due to sucking.

It was not half the team, there were variations on how much to overpay, and they were mostly worth doing. Partial disclaimer in that Herl had to recover from severe abdominal something or other and is only now getting back to form.

No, you are wrong
If we had listened to me and moved Girardi, Stepan and others we would be better off

Here it is. Bernmeisters "outside the box thinking" from 2013. Just to give some perspective when he says his plans would allow us to compete in 1-2 years max.

What about the proposal that included Staal + Stepan + Klein for Hertl.

I would do Staal + Stepan + Klein for Hertl today, and even if that was the pre-injury Staal.

Hertl is potential 1C a better version of Miller
have to pay top dollar

by the way, I know how to use these things too

 

[Levitate]

Don't really think Hertl has that top end offensive potential, but he's a good all around player. Don't think he's worth trading for though really unless you get a steal of a deal

 

[bernmeister]

That's no. 1 center right there. Unless there are only 6 teams in the league, of course.

22nd among forwards in P/60 at ES. Not among centers, among forwards. But sure, trade him because he has a NTC next year.

But he's plateaued! He must be traded before the NTC kicks in! Preferably for a real top line C to form a mega 1st line of behemoths with world beater Kreider, who is 10 months younger than Stepan but isn't close to his potential plateau and will obviously develop into a 35/35 beast! Because otherwise we = Canadiens!

Is it too much to ask you to get the facts straight?
It is NOT an NTC which is bad depending upon how extensive it is

it is an NMC which is far worse

Your comments are arguably hypocritical, since you bemoan Girardi and Staal's NMCs and imply if not actually have said you'd do anything to avoid that in the future, when all it would take is to move the asset -- and I'm not even saying for a loss, either.

laugh at my expense
Stepan's time here will not go into next season
and logically Gorton will get more for him now than later, plus reduce threat to being stuck with him due to injury.

I didn't want to be insensitive, but you want to provoke, ya wanna start --- watch me finish....

 

[bernmeister]

Don't really think Hertl has that top end offensive potential, but he's a good all around player. Don't think he's worth trading for though really unless you get a steal of a deal

that's not an unfair assessment
except for the last sentence

what I'm suggesting be considered is to get certain players, fair value is not enough. Ya have to overpay.

Of course, there's overpay we can live with and overpay not

why would SJS give us a steal of a deal?

I rest my case.

 

[Levitate]

Again, if the Rangers are trying to really overhaul the team and restructure it, then sure pretty much anyone is available. If they're trying to build and compete and find ways to plug holes/bring in prospects and young players while shooting for the cup, then no they're probably not just going to be trading every player that approaches the age of 27.

It is pretty impossible to build a winning team if you're constantly churning your roster trying to sell at players peaks for other players you need to develop. The Rangers will never win a cup with that kind of churn and even if they're trying to do a real complete overhaul, they'll bring in players that they hope will be long term contributors, not guys you develop for 3-4 years and then trade again for another guy you can develop for 3-4 years...

IMO

 

[ZiGOODejad]

Yeah steps not going anywhere...

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Nash is technically the only one we should trade at some point. Step and Zucc are just too important, also on an identificational level.

Why we keep Nash is his all-around play, his two-way game. If Vesey, who's is being sold as a two-way player, could copy that aspect of Nash's game, we can cash in on Nash, with little to no blow at all to the team from losing him.

 

[aufheben]

not to imply anything vs everybody else, but it is the posts by
BBKers
bluenote 13
Crease
Dragoon
Eco's Bones
RangerBoy
Savant
and Tawnos

that make this worthwhile
even having to endure certain detractors repeatedly while not verbally tearing them a new one

and fear not

bernmeister is a stand up guy, and admits when he is wrong
WHEN THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, NOT WHEN DETRACTORS SAY SO

and otherwise I give as good as I get and then some.

That cuts deep, Bern.

 

[NewLife]

I wonder if the team will trade Jensen for another prospect who is waivers exempt...

Would prefer them to move him for a RHD prospect. Someone I could see them liking is Trevor Carrick of the Hurricanes. Jensen can slot onto Carolina's fourth line pretty easily.

I think, and hope they will have him around the big club this season, he might not be our penciled in the line up every game but have his chances here and there. I mean he got skills and tools and I'm quite sure they targeted him in the Etem trade whom himself was a pretty hyped acquisition at the time, just didn't worked out. AV most likely had a say in this trade, probably like the kid. Even if he don't beat out say Gerbe in camp who is worth to invest time in going forward?

 

[NYR Viper]

Zuccarello holds the most value most likely out of anyone. In his prime. Plays in all situations. Good in all 3 zones. Signed for 4 more years at a reasonable contract. They have too many forwards. Nash obviously doesn't hold the value right now they believe he should.

If they could bring in a young high potential puck mover and another piece they should make it. Zuccarello will be a major blow to the offense. There's no denying that. In saying that they have larger holes organizationally that they need to fill.

Gorton has done a wonderful job bringing in guys who have either shown the ability to provide more offense than their recent production suggests or may need a new opportunity to prove their status in the NHL. Grabner, Gerbe, Jooris and Pirri are whom I am speaking. He signed Buchnevich, Vesey and resigned Jensen. All 3 of those guys are either close to, or NHL ready. That's 6-7 new NHL bodies. Gorton wants to get younger? Provide the opportunity for these guys to play.

The defense hasn't received an ounce of help yet. Skjei and McIlrath should be playing. I'm still unconvinced that AV will play McIlrath like he should. Maybe he is traded along with Zuccarello. Dallas really liked him in his draft year. The Western conference still plays a bigger game. The Rangers have wanted Honka for a couple of years.

 

[eco's bones]

not to imply anything vs everybody else, but it is the posts by
BBKers
bluenote 13
Crease
Dragoon
Eco's Bones
RangerBoy
Savant
and Tawnos

that make this worthwhile
even having to endure certain detractors repeatedly while not verbally tearing them a new one

and fear not

bernmeister is a stand up guy, and admits when he is wrong
WHEN THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, NOT WHEN DETRACTORS SAY SO

and otherwise I give as good as I get and then some.

Hey--I like you too.

 

[jay from jersey]

nooo

this scenario is not only not realistic, it's plain dumb and ridiculous. NYR gets trouba to flip him for reinhart ?? and schiefle??

NEXT TIME PLS READ
what I said was
consider, pls
everybody wants Schiefle
the time to deal for Scheifle is not now, but earlier when MAYBE there was a possibility of his availability

the point is Reinhart is conceivable now, less likely later


these players are not getting traded and the rangers would never EVER make a move for a stud d-man to flip him for another center and have steps zibby hayes jooris lindberg and reinhart at one time. the EA controller has corrupted your brain. not to mention you are squandering what 3-4 years before reinhart develops into a stud??

Fortunately, Gorton is too smart to listen to your close mindedness.
If there is a big enough gain, he will pull the trigger IMO

It's a good thing, Martha Stewart
Don't fear what you don't understand


let's just squander all those good years lundqvist has left cause goalies like him come around every draft..

No.
Hank is in net until he shows he can't cut it.
could be 2 years, 6 years we don't know exactly
we should BUILD to field the best possible team, as quickly as possible

Little moves and tweaks are not enough
If we do what you suggest, it is a continuation of the status quo
If we do what I suggest, it is likely to be relatively short before that much talent gels and we have an improved team

Learn from recent mistakes, continuing with standard operating procedure will yield maintained status quo, not SIGNIFICANT improvement, which is what we need


NYR is in a retool with a you injection. the turnaround on this team is 1-2 years max. Their top 9 is either protected or exempt from the EXP draft. this is the team going forward..Expect some changes on the defensive side this season most likely and i fully expect a trade for shatty or he will be signed as a UFA. this team is one or 2 players away from a serious threat and you want to decimate it.

The above is not enough.
Need to move vets Stepan, Nash and Klein maybe more


Stephan is a lot better then you are giving him credit for. Im just happy i didn't see brett pesce's name i guess that's an improvement

You are still closeminded about if Stepan is worth more to us as player or in trade

AGAIN STOP WITH THE INSTANT GRATIFICATION

schiefle was never, reinhart is going to be never, and never ever ever will any team in the NHL ever make a series of trades like this in the shortened span you have laid out here. this is NYR roster, not sam's hot car lot where players are flying off the lot a reduced prices for absolute nonsense. your the one with the closed minded view of stepan. he is 26 years old. Not a 30 + vet, although he plays with the savvy of one. Thank god gorton's not as close minded as me?? listen tiny tim, if gorton ever made these trades, not only would he be fired, he would be hauled off to the laughing academy with padded walls to play NHL16 with you all day. the only way steps is getting traded is if hayes takes a massive step forward and turns into a less physical version of joe thornton in a year before steps NTC kicks in.. in short probably never

 

[TheTakedown]

this scenario is not only not realistic, it's plain dumb and ridiculous. NYR gets trouba to flip him for reinhart ?? and schiefle??

NEXT TIME PLS READ
what I said was
consider, pls
everybody wants Schiefle
the time to deal for Scheifle is not now, but earlier when MAYBE there was a possibility of his availability

the point is Reinhart is conceivable now, less likely later


these players are not getting traded and the rangers would never EVER make a move for a stud d-man to flip him for another center and have steps zibby hayes jooris lindberg and reinhart at one time. the EA controller has corrupted your brain. not to mention you are squandering what 3-4 years before reinhart develops into a stud??

Fortunately, Gorton is too smart to listen to your close mindedness.
If there is a big enough gain, he will pull the trigger IMO

It's a good thing, Martha Stewart
Don't fear what you don't understand


let's just squander all those good years lundqvist has left cause goalies like him come around every draft..

No.
Hank is in net until he shows he can't cut it.
could be 2 years, 6 years we don't know exactly
we should BUILD to field the best possible team, as quickly as possible

Little moves and tweaks are not enough
If we do what you suggest, it is a continuation of the status quo
If we do what I suggest, it is likely to be relatively short before that much talent gels and we have an improved team

Learn from recent mistakes, continuing with standard operating procedure will yield maintained status quo, not SIGNIFICANT improvement, which is what we need


NYR is in a retool with a you injection. the turnaround on this team is 1-2 years max. Their top 9 is either protected or exempt from the EXP draft. this is the team going forward..Expect some changes on the defensive side this season most likely and i fully expect a trade for shatty or he will be signed as a UFA. this team is one or 2 players away from a serious threat and you want to decimate it.

The above is not enough.
Need to move vets Stepan, Nash and Klein maybe more


Stephan is a lot better then you are giving him credit for. Im just happy i didn't see brett pesce's name i guess that's an improvement

You are still closeminded about if Stepan is worth more to us as player or in trade

AGAIN STOP WITH THE INSTANT GRATIFICATION

So, when are we getting hertl?

 

[TheTakedown]

Let's see where the Rangers are at the 20 game mark. I think by then you'll see if:

Pirri
Hayes
Vesey
Buchnevich

provide enough offense and (chants: Buuuuu) to displace one perhaps even both of

Nash
Zucc

I think there's enough offense there to facilitate a trade.

If Pirri learns even a lick of defensive hockey, I could see him displacing Nash, forcing management to move Nash.

I WOULDN'T give Pirri a payday after that, but if we could provide 35-40 points, and Zucc can take the 1st line RW spot successfully, there wouldn't be a reason to keep a 31 year old Nash with 1.75 years left on his deal. Zucc I think will have much more longevity in his body. Small guys tend to have a lot of energy. Gerbe is also 29, short, energy type of player, good chance they could have other personable similarities, and gerbe doesn't look like he's falling out of the NHL any time soon...

And you never know, given all those similarities, he and Zucc might get along well--definitely need to factor in team chemistry. There's my "outside the box" thinking.

 

[NewLife]

If Pirri learns even a lick of defensive hockey, I could see him displacing Nash, forcing management to move Nash.

I WOULDN'T give Pirri a payday after that, but if we could provide 35-40 points, and Zucc can take the 1st line RW spot successfully, there wouldn't be a reason to keep a 31 year old Nash with 1.75 years left on his deal. Zucc I think will have much more longevity in his body. Small guys tend to have a lot of energy. Gerbe is also 29, short, energy type of player, good chance they could have other personable similarities, and gerbe doesn't look like he's falling out of the NHL any time soon...

And you never know, given all those similarities, he and Zucc might get along well--definitely need to factor in team chemistry. There's my "outside the box" thinking.

Then there's that everybody Zuccs bounds with gets thrown out of town. So yeah build a new little fellowship.

 

[pld459666]

World Cup nice example of how Torts simply cannot control himself. Went from the totally unforced error of the anthem mess to now throwing Max Pacioretty under the bus after just the second pre-tournament game. Im guessing Babcock spent game one just scouting Torts.

I fail to see what he did wrong in either scenario

I 1000% support the anthem comment so I'm not gonna bother debating that.

But if you are relying on a guy to play better and produce the time to call a guy out IS when the games don't matter.

I hate when players are coddled. He's playing like ****. I have a hard time thinking that Torts of all coaches waited until the presser to say something. I have no doubt the conversation has been broached already and patches hasn't responded.

I wish more coaches called out their top players.

 

[haohmaru]

Is it better to be on Bern's list of people that he likes or worse?

 

[pld459666]

Is it better to be on Bern's list of people that he likes or worse?

Great question.

 

[bernmeister]

Again, if the Rangers are trying to really overhaul the team and restructure it, then sure pretty much anyone is available. If they're trying to build and compete and find ways to plug holes/bring in prospects and young players while shooting for the cup, then no they're probably not just going to be trading every player that approaches the age of 27.

It is pretty impossible to build a winning team if you're constantly churning your roster trying to sell at players peaks for other players you need to develop. The Rangers will never win a cup with that kind of churn and even if they're trying to do a real complete overhaul, they'll bring in players that they hope will be long term contributors, not guys you develop for 3-4 years and then trade again for another guy you can develop for 3-4 years...

IMO

I respect this opinion, even tho there is some disagree

Again, if the Rangers are trying to really overhaul the team and restructure it, then sure pretty much anyone is available.

while acknowledging "overhaul" is a subjective 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' term
concur, and IMO there is/is a need for
extensive enough overhaul for this to be the case with these Rangers.
Argument/facts in support:
while alternate scenarios could apply, I believe we agree that:

1. AND DOMINATING EVERYTHING ELSE, THIS TEAM WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN LAST YEAR, AND HAS NOT BEEN GOOD ENOUGH TO GET PAST EARLIER ROUNDS INTO THE FINALS. There is no reason to think we are strong enough to dominate, and barring injury alone, we are favorites for the Cup.

The ? then is how to get there.

2 We agree we are trying to move Staal, Girardi
want to use McIlrath and not have his role left to AV's stupidity

After that I think everything is conditional
Nash - looking to move at the right price
Zuc, Klein - not looking to move but will take offers at right price

I have a disconnect with most re: Stepan
I believe whether or not you think we should/need to upgrade
we can do better by repurposing his 6.5 on this roster/additions
and on top of that, again is the NMC, which cannot be permitted.
Others disagree.

Most of the rest of the roster is not for sale, unless we see
an upgrade, a la Brass for Zib, which is exception not the rule
or
a complementary move, like an excess F for a D
however, since moves made impact and create an opportunity cost as to doing other potential moves, this has to be done, but done carefully.
EG while exceptions apply moving Miller makes it less likely to move Stepan, and vice versa.

All of this points to IMO enough to be an 'overhaul' that is needed and in progress

If they're trying to build and compete and find ways to plug holes/bring in prospects and young players while shooting for the cup, then no they're probably not just going to be trading every player that approaches the age of 27.

they are plugging holes one or so at a time, not changing a quarter to a third overnight in one fell swoop, but cumulatively it is enough moves, IMO to equal overhaul.

It is pretty impossible to build a winning team if you're constantly churning your roster trying to sell at players peaks for other players you need to develop. The Rangers will never win a cup with that kind of churn and even if they're trying to do a real complete overhaul, they'll bring in players that they hope will be long term contributors, not guys you develop for 3-4 years and then trade again for another guy you can develop for 3-4 years...

I agree in part as to players "developing" but I trust you would agree that all other things being equal, in theory, better talented players develop more quickly due to increased skill level.

I think there is an obligation to 'churn' continuously until you can max the combo of talent and chemistry. Failure to do so will be settling for less than optimal results --- assuming, I concede, your estimate of talent and trades is correct.

 

[bernmeister]

That cuts deep, Bern.

Hey, aufheben, ya reap what ya sow!

But fear not, if you show more love, and enough of it, you too can crack the faves list.



In fact, since it is alphabetized, you can go to the top of the list

 

[RangerBoy]

If you look at Nash. Two of his last three seasons. Concussion in 13-14. The bone bruise in 15-16. Nash suffered a concussion during the lockout season. Lucic hit his head into the glass. Rangers need for him to be healthy and productive. Should the Rangers protect him in the expansion draft? If Nash has an injury plagued season. Scores 20 goals. The Rangers should not protect him. McPhee won't take him. The Rangers can protect another forward. Even if Nash has a good season,would you protect him? If Vegas takes him,the Rangers are off the hook. Free up $7.8M. Open up a spot in the top 6 for the younger guys.