Speculation: Official 2021-22 Coyotes Roster Discussion IV

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YotesFan47

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Poorly handled, he gets a late call-up (finally) and shows he is NHL ready. Then he goes and plays for Team Canada. By the summer it was rumoured/known he was not interested in staying in the desert and preferred to play in Toronto.

I can imagine during the free agency period Toronto suggested he would get a chance to earn a spot on the top 2 lines (replacing Hyman). Bunting bet on himself and looks like he will win. His only error was signing a 2 year bottom dollar deal. He is due a BIG raise.
We still can't put that on BA fully, and the reality is we may not be able to put any of it on BA. None of us has the full story, maybe that last call up was a courtesy to Bunting, allowing him to showcase himself to earn a deal closer to home. We just don't know beyond the rumor that Bunting wanted out. I still put a lot on RT for being a complete failure of a coach.
 

YotesFan47

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Would having a 50/60 point 26 year old help our tank?
It's the tradable asset loss, but the problem is no one saw his production being this high this season. He may never hit it again but hindsight is getting the better of some.

I like Bunting, was writing him into lineups for 3 years, most of that was not under BA's reign. It's hard for me to blame BA when I saw an absolute tire fire from JC and RT. BA only had one season where he could have figured Bunting out but he was so busy with other messes that he missed it. The dudes not an all knowing God, he will make mistakes. This one sucks but it's not the end all be all to the future of this organization. The good he's seemed to do so far outweighs the missed opportunities.

People will also say he missed on trading OEL and had to include Garland to get the deal done. While some of that may have some truth, Garland was not part of the long term solution here. BA wants the team to be bigger and harder to play against. If Guenther can replace what Garland brought, plus some, while also getting OEL's contract off the books, why not make it? Seems like this has been a win for both orgs.

BA came into a mess, everyone here knows it. There will also be misses, there isn't a GM in the league without some failures. Let's judge him on the outcome of this rebuild. For me, after 4 more seasons, we need to be competitive and pushing to be a bubble team. In 7 we should be a playoff lock. In 10 we should be a favorite. That's what successful rebuilds look like and that's how long he has in my eyes.
 

cobra427

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We still can't put that on BA fully, and the reality is we may not be able to put any of it on BA. None of us has the full story, maybe that last call up was a courtesy to Bunting, allowing him to showcase himself to earn a deal closer to home. We just don't know beyond the rumor that Bunting wanted out. I still put a lot on RT for being a complete failure of a coach.
This is what we do know. We have to build through the draft and our AHL affiliate. Somehow we had Bunting for many years, he produces at the AHL level, he produces in a short stint in the NHL and we lose him to TM, boom 60 points. We have to figure out how to keep our home grown players. Recently, players with some success at the NHL level are: Chych/Keller/Garland/DVO/Bunting. After Chych gets traded, we will have 1 left in Keller. This isn't the way to build through the draft and develop players. BA has been here 2 years, it's on him.
 
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hbk

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Would Canucks have picked 9th with OEL last year? What if they picked 15th? Don’t get me wrong Garland is a big cost to move up a handful of spots but getting Guenther at 9 was a coup. If you are going to salvage a mistake by getting a top 5 talent then I don’t feel too bad about it.
 

Mangosteen

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BA had no intention of signing anyone with skill or entertainment value. He wants us to stink and doing everything he can to make us a loser. And look it’s working.

Hopefully he has a plan to get us out of it and not just collect a pay cheque for 3 years.
 

Heldig

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We still can't put that on BA fully, and the reality is we may not be able to put any of it on BA. None of us has the full story, maybe that last call up was a courtesy to Bunting, allowing him to showcase himself to earn a deal closer to home. We just don't know beyond the rumor that Bunting wanted out. I still put a lot on RT for being a complete failure of a coach.
I blame Tocchet.
 

Fyreman

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I think the timeline should be 3 / 5 / 7, not 4 / 7 / 10, but we're aligned on a successful rebuild is a perennial playoff team with multiple deep runs.
The 4 / 7 / 10 timeline would be hard for me to digest. I said a LONG time ago that the rebuild was going to be 3 / 5. It is what it is, so far I'm enjoying the ride.
 

YotesFan47

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The 4 / 7 / 10 timeline would be hard for me to digest. I said a LONG time ago that the rebuild was going to be 3 / 5. It is what it is, so far I'm enjoying the ride.
It's hard for me to digest as well, but the more I considered the difficulty of a great rebuild, the more I realized how unlikely that is. Multiple teams are going through a rebuild each year and most of the teams winning cups now, did theirs over a decade ago. Some teams get it right on the first try but most of them have to go through a 2nd, or even 3rd retool to get there. I want to set realistic expectations for myself, and being a contender (if only for a few years) could take 10 seasons. Doesn't mean we'll be bad for 10 years, we just may be a normal playoff team.

20/21-24/25: Draft high and draft frequently.
25/26-28/29 Sign higher profile UFAs and trade for higher profile players where needed.
29/30-32/33: Retool if the team looks like it's just not right, or win a cup?
33/34-36/37: Win 1st cup if the first stab didn't work out.

That's a loooong time but it happens to more teams than not. By 25/26 I think we're a playoff team, but that doesn't mean we'll be a cup favorite any time soon.
 

Canis Latrans

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That's my point. Bunting should have been called up two years prior to see what he could do. If he made the team he all of a sudden becomes an asset that could be traded for something. Bunting will not be coming back. What ever, it is what it is.
Yeah, I generally agree it's on the Coyotes/Roadrunners. I find it hard to believe a player breaks out that hard without having been overlooked or getting the wrong playtime and situations, but I suppose it is possible. I do think it's highly unlikely he comes back, but it's not an outrageous possibility. We might not need him to either based on team needs and how well he holds up by then.
 

Canis Latrans

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It's the tradable asset loss, but the problem is no one saw his production being this high this season. He may never hit it again but hindsight is getting the better of some.

...

BA came into a mess, everyone here knows it. There will also be misses, there isn't a GM in the league without some failures. Let's judge him on the outcome of this rebuild. For me, after 4 more seasons, we need to be competitive and pushing to be a bubble team. In 7 we should be a playoff lock. In 10 we should be a favorite. That's what successful rebuilds look like and that's how long he has in my eyes.
It also likely would have been the right move to re-sign Bunting and trade him this season for more picks, which Bunting's agent could have told him. He didn't have the history and needed to sign for essentially a bridge contract which could have been torched by a trade to a poor fit that wasn't under Bunting's control.

I posit that Armstrong also knows it's a bad look for an organization to trade a player who just re-signed and this team doesn't need any more of that. Some might think we already hit bottom and it doesn't matter though, however, does Armstrong need that reputation in case he ever becomes a GM elsewhere?

Otherwise, just think your timelines are too far off. If you're threatening the playoffs by 4, you can't take another 3 to be a lock. I think it's just more condensed that what you've indicated is all, but 4 seasons seems appropriate, maybe 3 if we're lucky.
 

Canis Latrans

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This is what we do know. We have to build through the draft and our AHL affiliate. Somehow we had Bunting for many years, he produces at the AHL level, he produces in a short stint in the NHL and we lose him to TM, boom 60 points. We have to figure out how to keep our home grown players. Recently, players with some success at the NHL level are: Chych/Keller/Garland/DVO/Bunting. After Chych gets traded, we will have 1 left in Keller. This isn't the way to build through the draft and develop players. BA has been here 2 years, it's on him.
That's true, but the team has lacked depth in prospects. It's been a couple guys, then a gap or three, then a couple guys. To really get there you need to keep hitting on guys year after year. It's reloading, not rebuilding. We have to atone for failures in building depth because it would not get the team to a competitive state and the cost has been players who seemingly would fit onto contenders because of their age. This team really has needed to be stripped to the bolts.

At the very least, there's a good lot of scouts to help take advantage of the picks to allow the team to build up wave after wave of top prospects here on out.
 

YotesFan47

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It also likely would have been the right move to re-sign Bunting and trade him this season for more picks, which Bunting's agent could have told him. He didn't have the history and needed to sign for essentially a bridge contract which could have been torched by a trade to a poor fit that wasn't under Bunting's control.

I posit that Armstrong also knows it's a bad look for an organization to trade a player who just re-signed and this team doesn't need any more of that. Some might think we already hit bottom and it doesn't matter though, however, does Armstrong need that reputation in case he ever becomes a GM elsewhere?

Otherwise, just think your timelines are too far off. If you're threatening the playoffs by 4, you can't take another 3 to be a lock. I think it's just more condensed that what you've indicated is all, but 4 seasons seems appropriate, maybe 3 if we're lucky.
I hope you're right because a lot of teams go through lengthy rebuilds, I'd really prefer we got ours done quickly and accurately.
 

Fyreman

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It's hard for me to digest as well, but the more I considered the difficulty of a great rebuild, the more I realized how unlikely that is. Multiple teams are going through a rebuild each year and most of the teams winning cups now, did theirs over a decade ago. Some teams get it right on the first try but most of them have to go through a 2nd, or even 3rd retool to get there. I want to set realistic expectations for myself, and being a contender (if only for a few years) could take 10 seasons. Doesn't mean we'll be bad for 10 years, we just may be a normal playoff team.

20/21-24/25: Draft high and draft frequently.
25/26-28/29 Sign higher profile UFAs and trade for higher profile players where needed.
29/30-32/33: Retool if the team looks like it's just not right, or win a cup?
33/34-36/37: Win 1st cup if the first stab didn't work out.

That's a loooong time but it happens to more teams than not. By 25/26 I think we're a playoff team, but that doesn't mean we'll be a cup favorite any time soon.
Excellent chronology, the 33/34-36/37 makes my eyes pop out. I guess I'm looking at the 5 year goal of being a perennial playoff participant and maybe catching lightning in a bottle.
 
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YotesFan47

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Excellent chronology, the 33/34-36/37 makes my eyes pop out. I guess I'm looking at the 5 year goal of being a perennial playoff participant and maybe catching lightning in a bottle.
Bro! Haha, you should have seen me before I posted it! I wasn't sure if the board would even want to see that, it's a scary narrative. That's another 12 years away, likely with a good 6 or so post season appearances included, but still, 12 years for a cup. That's a lot to invest for a single championship, like my sons will be 13 and 16. It's insane to think about. Hell, I'll be 46. 40 F'ing 6. I've been cheering for this team since I was 8, that's 36 years for a single Stanley Cup. Brutal.
 

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Bro! Haha, you should have seen me before I posted it! I wasn't sure if the board would even want to see that, it's a scary narrative. That's another 12 years away, likely with a good 6 or so post season appearances included, but still, 12 years for a cup. That's a lot to invest for a single championship, like my sons will be 13 and 16. It's insane to think about. Hell, I'll be 46. 40 F'ing 6. I've been cheering for this team since I was 8, that's 36 years for a single Stanley Cup. Brutal.
Well...32 teams now...so...
 
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Fyreman

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Hell, I'll be 46. 40 F'ing 6. I've been cheering for this team since I was 8, that's 36 years for a single Stanley Cup. Brutal.
Ha- 12 years for a Cup????????? I'll be freaking 80!! Are you kidding me?? I'll be lucky if I'm NOT F**KING DEAD!! LOLOL... :oops::skeptic::D
 

ck26

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BA came into a mess, everyone here knows it. There will also be misses, there isn't a GM in the league without some failures. Let's judge him on the outcome of this rebuild. For me, after 4 more seasons, we need to be competitive and pushing to be a bubble team. In 7 we should be a playoff lock. In 10 we should be a favorite. That's what successful rebuilds look like and that's how long he has in my eyes.
You're giving a GM 6 years to be on the bubble? And 9 years to be a solid playoff team? You, my friend, are more patient than I'd ever be.

This summer, Eriksson, Kessel, Roussel, Beagle, Galchenyuk and Stralman are all off the books. Given how tough it'll be to attract UFA's the next 2 years, I hope the plan is to continue filling up the cap by stockpiling negative assets and picks. And packaging those picks into higher picks.

By 2023-2024, BA needs to be giving guys raises and we, as fans, need to at least be dreaming of the playoffs. Given our glut of high picks, there should be enough talent here to compete, even if it's young talent.
 
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YotesFan47

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You're giving a GM 6 years to be on the bubble? And 9 years to be a solid playoff team? You, my friend, are more patient than I'd ever be.

This summer, Eriksson, Kessel, Roussel, Beagle, Galchenyuk and Stralman are all off the books. Given how tough it'll be to attract UFA's the next 2 years, I hope the plan is to continue filling up the cap by stockpiling negative assets and picks. And packaging those picks into higher picks.

By 2023-2024, BA needs to be giving guys raises and we, as fans, need to at least be dreaming of the playoffs. Given our glut of high picks, there should be enough talent here to compete, even if it's young talent.
You have to first acquire the talent, then train them to be NHL athletes. I'd wager that's a 5 year process. So in 6 years, 2 draft classes will have made it (only a percentage).

At that point you start fine tuning your playoff team to try and win a cup. If you did a good job, eventually you win it. 12 teams have won the cup going back to 2000, 6 have a single championship in that time. So, in 21 years, 6 teams have won 2.67 cups. Those are tough odds and it's likely a big reason why you see good teams retool if they have some quality youth.

I'm not happy about the proposed timeline, but IF we win a cup, I don't think it will be a short road.

I wouldn't say I'm giving the GM 6 years to be a bubble team, though that could be the case depending on how quickly guys progress. I'm giving a GM 12 years to win a cup, or at least look like their team could, because actually winning a championship is hard.
 

Schemp

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You're giving a GM 6 years to be on the bubble? And 9 years to be a solid playoff team? You, my friend, are more patient than I'd ever be.

This summer, Eriksson, Kessel, Roussel, Beagle, Galchenyuk and Stralman are all off the books. Given how tough it'll be to attract UFA's the next 2 years, I hope the plan is to continue filling up the cap by stockpiling negative assets and picks. And packaging those picks into higher picks.

By 2023-2024, BA needs to be giving guys raises and we, as fans, need to at least be dreaming of the playoffs. Given our glut of high picks, there should be enough talent here to compete, even if it's young talent.
I look at the 6 contracts leaving, being replaced by Guenther, McBain, Smith.
1 contract expected is the tank pick, leaving 2. Positions of concern is Center and RHD

Does McBain and Smith stay up north, even though they both are waiver exempt. Will we build the Tempe-Tucson express/recalls with a lot of waiver exemptions?
 

PuckLife

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The Coyotes need to give this kid a contract - he's settling in well now that the post-traumatic stress disorder of Tocchet sitting him for 5 game stretches has subsided. The kid has great skills, plays a complete game and is tough as nails - look at his smile getting up after this hit.
 

Vinny Boombatz

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23'24' season we're battling for playoffs, barely missing or barely making it. 25'26' season we're a solid playoff contender and then 27'28 we catch lightning in a bottle and we're competing for the cup.

this could be a year early...so 24'25 then 26'27 and then cup in 28'29'
 
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