Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition 3.0 - Steve Pearce signs for 2/$12.5

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BlueForever

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Bautista stats - HR 22 RBI 69 BA .234 OBP .366
EE stats - HR 42 RBI 127 BA .269 OBP .357
Saunders stats - HR 24 RBI 57 BA .253 OBP .338

Totals - HR 88 RBI 253 BA .252 OBP .353



Morales stats - HR 30 RBI 93 BA .263 OBP .331
Pearce stats - HR 13 RBI 35 BA .288 OBP .374

Totals - HR 43 RBI 128 BA .275 OBP .353


Need to replace - HR 45 RBI 125 going higher or the same on BA and OBP

Screams one player.......... EDWIN ENCARNACION

Team is better off replacing Joey Bats and Saunders with Morales and Pearce. But they need to bring back EE.

If you bring in Fowler, the team gets better at D, speed and OBP. Maybe even average. But we lose power from last year.

The 2 acquisitions so far have kept us competitive. The next move is the key. Do we get a Fowler or EE to key us over the top in the East. Or do we piece mail it.
 

GoonieFace

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Jun 24, 2013
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I'm not sure why someone can't love a signing and that immediately turns into what you wrote above.

The hyperbole used by some of you is astounding.

It's no wonder there is such a divide between those who like advanced stats and those who don't - you're not allowed to sit in the middle. It has to be one extreme or the other apparently.

Yep, you have to be a robot to gain any respect on this site. You cant actually show emotion over players, you can only relay stats and projections.
 

Eyedea

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Jan 29, 2012
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And I don't expect him to be a -13 in ~800 innings, I expect him to be closer to the overall -8.9 he was over the full season. That number isn't an outlier... it's far closer to the norm for him than a +5.

I believe the projections because they're far more accurate than what I could predict and I don't see anything that seems out of the ordinary. Sure, the BABIP is lower than his career average, but he's been in the .260 range for three straight years now and that seems like it should be the new norm for him.

I would be really interested to see the ZiPS projections to see if/why they differ significantly the way they did with Morales.

Well ZIPs had him at a 108 OPS+ and 1.7 zWAR last year just as a reference point. I'd assume he profiles as an average player again.
 

Canada4Gold

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I'm not sure why someone can't love a signing and that immediately turns into what you wrote above.

The hyperbole used by some of you is astounding.

It's no wonder there is such a divide between those who like advanced stats and those who don't - you're not allowed to sit in the middle. It has to be one extreme or the other apparently.

you're freaking out because we "replaced" EE with Pearce. No we didn't. No sane person goes into an offseason thinking we lost a RH power 1st baseman so th
at's exactly what we need to find to replace them, we can't do it any other way.

and then the moment we make a value signing for a player who can do something that's been a weakness for us(versitality around the field) you have to freak out for some un-understandable reason because you think this is the guy we're directly trying to replicate EE with. Yes it is ridiculous rabbling.

We had roughly 40-45 million to spend and 4 offensive spots to fill, along with a pen spot or 2. You have to find value in your signings, that doesn't mean that's all the type of signings they're going to do. It doesn't matter if "these value signings aren't doing it for me", they're a necessity if you want to build a team without spending 300 million dollars.

We just added a guy who can move around the field, absolutely crush lefties, adaquete against righties for the low cost of ~6 million dollars. Sure he's not EE, but it's added value for fairly cheap. All you moves aren't going to be big ticket moves
 

bullocks

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Rogers just being cheap that's all. If they don't sign Fowler now then this off season is really underwhelming. The jays arnt a playoff team as it stands. Donaldson probably counting down the days until he's an FA.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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Aug 14, 2010
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Awesome thanks! Which part is nonsense? The part about my kid being sad all her favourite players are being replaced with guys I've never really known much about and who are not household names? Or the part about a guy averaging less than 100GP per season at the age of 34 not being an everyday player or being extremely injury prone?

You're assuming things that have not come to fruition (EE indeed not being an option), and also other things that are not true (injury history of Pearce), all while being quite petulant (using Carlo Colaiacovo as an example, management's motivation behind the signing being $).

I apologize that you may have to explain to your daughter that players sometimes leave in free agency. That part is not nonsense. Parenting is tough. The rest is asinine.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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The Jays are out on EE as per Phillips.

We have replaced EE with an inferior hitter in Morales and have potentially taken out a middle of the order bat in Jose's as well. This offseason isn't looking great so far. Granted its early, but as of now we have regressed than last year.

I feel like I'm going to wait.....because Jeremy Bernitz, Mo Vaughan and ESPN interns.
 

Discoverer

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You're assuming things that have not come to fruition (EE indeed not being an option), and also other things that are not true (injury history of Pearce), all while being quite petulant (using Carlo Colaiacovo as an example, management's motivation behind the signing being $).

I apologize that you may have to explain to your daughter that players sometimes leave in free agency. That part is not nonsense. Parenting is tough. The rest is asinine.

In my experience (not as a parent, but as a former kid who watched all his favourite players leave at one time or another) the only thing that happens is that you find new Jays to fill that void (they still have Stroman and Sanchez and Osuna and Pillar and Tulo and Martin and what's-his-name over at 3B) and sometimes you end up following your favourite player's new team a bit more and developing a deeper appreciation for Rey Ordonez's glove and Edgar Martinez's bat and the sport as a whole and, maybe, you can take the opportunity to learn more about yourself and life and baseball.

Or... I don't know. Whatever.
 

Amadeus

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Apparently a mystery team is pursuing Andrew McCutchen. Love those mystery teams.

Could be us considering our need for OF. He'd have to move to the corner though.
 

RoyalCitySlicker

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you're freaking out because we "replaced" EE with Pearce. No we didn't. No sane person goes into an offseason thinking we lost a RH power 1st baseman so th
at's exactly what we need to find to replace them, we can't do it any other way.

and then the moment we make a value signing for a player who can do something that's been a weakness for us(versitality around the field) you have to freak out for some un-understandable reason because you think this is the guy we're directly trying to replicate EE with. Yes it is ridiculous rabbling.

We had roughly 40-45 million to spend and 4 offensive spots to fill, along with a pen spot or 2. You have to find value in your signings, that doesn't mean that's all the type of signings they're going to do. It doesn't matter if "these value signings aren't doing it for me", they're a necessity if you want to build a team without spending 300 million dollars.

We just added a guy who can move around the field, absolutely crush lefties, adaquete against righties for the low cost of ~6 million dollars. Sure he's not EE, but it's added value for fairly cheap. All you moves aren't going to be big ticket moves

Firstly, I'm not freaking out. You're telling me I am. All I said was that to the casual fan like myself, it doesn't seem like he's (Pearce) is as great as some on here are making him out to be. That's all. In fact, I said I'd be patient to see how it all turns out. You're telling me I am freaking out cause it's always more fun to make things sound more dramatic than that are.

As far as spending 40-45 million, we will see where it all shakes out in April. The off-season is not over. The ship perhaps hasn't totally sailed on EE or Bautista....but as a fan, I'm not thrilled with the signing. That's all I said....none of this rabble rabble fire everyone hyperbole you've evidently attributed to me. I'm not sure how my couple of sentences led you to generalize as much as you did, but whatever.

You're assuming things that have not come to fruition (EE indeed not being an option), and also other things that are not true (injury history of Pearce), all while being quite petulant (using Carlo Colaiacovo as an example, management's motivation behind the signing being $).

I apologize that you may have to explain to your daughter that players sometimes leave in free agency. That part is not nonsense. Parenting is tough. The rest is asinine.

Still no one has explained the games played thing with Pearce. He's either very injury prone, or he's a platoon player, or he's a guy that has been incorrectly utilized by all the teams he's played for.

If he mashes the way you say he does, how come his GP and his AB's are so low over his career.

I can also do without the personal insults. You're a big baseball fan...I'm not as big a baseball fan. Congrats to you. I'm sorry that I dont have the same understanding as you and some others on here about underlying stats, but it doesn't help your case when you just call people idiots rather than having as civil discussion.
 

JS19

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If there's anything I want, I hope that signing Pearce shuts down the Jay Bruce rumours. I don't want a garbage player like him. Steve Pearce is at least a serviceable outfield/infielder. Also, it's worth mentioning that this signing could shut the door on Fowler depending on what management's plan is for Steve Pearce.

Also, I wonder if this hurts EE and Bautista's leverage. The more that players end up signing with teams, the slimmer their chances of getting a big money contract. Seems like Kinsler should have taken the 4 year / 80mil offer.
 

one77

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Dec 22, 2013
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We need to sign one of EE or JB, and another OF preferably Fowler. Otherwise the lineup does not look promising IMO
 

BlueForever

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As much as EE's agent is stating that his client isn't about the money and isn't flashy.

Its very hypocritical for him to say the above and want to go play in places like Cleveland or Texas where it totally goes against what it is he wants in a city that he wants to play in.

He should have signed already in Toronto if indeed this is where his heart is. If he doesn't sign here he instantly becomes a villain alla Vince Carter or Al Leiter.

We made him.... gave him his shot. He's nothing had JP Riccardi not taken a flyer on him and had we not invested the time we did into him making him who he is today.

Players like this cause rifts in the locker room. The Jays have something going 2 years straight. Probably the best fans in baseball. But this guy and his agent turn down a fair deal to go play else where.

Good riddance....and good luck.
 

Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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Still no one has explained the games played thing with Pearce. He's either very injury prone, or he's a platoon player, or he's a guy that has been incorrectly utilized by all the teams he's played for.

It has been explained, though. He's been an almost-everyday player who's been injured for a month or two in each of the last three seasons. Injuries are a legitimate concern, but it's a worthwhile risk for a such a cheap contract to a player who's extremely productive when he's on the field.
 

King Mapes

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Rogers just being cheap that's all. If they don't sign Fowler now then this off season is really underwhelming. The jays arnt a playoff team as it stands. Donaldson probably counting down the days until he's an FA.

It's like people have never followed baseball offseasons before
 

RoyalCitySlicker

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It has been explained, though. He's been an almost-everyday player who's been injured for a month or two in each of the last three seasons. Injuries are a legitimate concern, but it's a worthwhile risk for a such a cheap contract to a player who's extremely productive when he's on the field.

Sorry, I thought that was the explanation too.

Then DJQ told me I was wrong about injury history (Pearce) and being petulant.

So I thought maybe injuries weren't an issue? I dunno now.
 

Discoverer

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If there's anything I want, I hope that signing Pearce shuts down the Jay Bruce rumours. I don't want a garbage player like him. Steve Pearce is at least a serviceable outfield/infielder. Also, it's worth mentioning that this signing could shut the door on Fowler depending on what management's plan is for Steve Pearce.

Also, I wonder if this hurts EE and Bautista's leverage. The more that players end up signing with teams, the slimmer their chances of getting a big money contract. Seems like Kinsler should have taken the 4 year / 80mil offer.

It shouldn't affect either of those things. Pearce is a righty, Bruce is a lefty, and the Jays still need at least one (and more likely two) outfielders.
 

Discoverer

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As much as EE's agent is stating that his client isn't about the money and isn't flashy.

Its very hypocritical for him to say the above and want to go play in places like Cleveland or Texas where it totally goes against what it is he wants in a city that he wants to play in.

He should have signed already in Toronto if indeed this is where his heart is. If he doesn't sign here he instantly becomes a villain alla Vince Carter or Al Leiter.

We made him.... gave him his shot. He's nothing had JP Riccardi not taken a flyer on him and had we not invested the time we did into him making him who he is today.

Players like this cause rifts in the locker room. The Jays have something going 2 years straight. Probably the best fans in baseball. But this guy and his agent turn down a fair deal to go play else where.

Good riddance....and good luck.

Wow.
 

BlueForever

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It shouldn't affect either of those things. Pearce is a righty, Bruce is a lefty, and the Jays still need at least one (and more likely two) outfielders.

They need 2 outfielders....

Sign Fowler and trade for one of Bruce/Granderson/Braun/Eaton..

Trade Smoak for batting cage mesh.

Sign Logan for bullpen.

Call it a day
 

le_sean

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Oct 21, 2006
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Bautista stats - HR 22 RBI 69 BA .234 OBP .366
EE stats - HR 42 RBI 127 BA .269 OBP .357
Saunders stats - HR 24 RBI 57 BA .253 OBP .338

Totals - HR 88 RBI 253 BA .252 OBP .353



Morales stats - HR 30 RBI 93 BA .263 OBP .331
Pearce stats - HR 13 RBI 35 BA .288 OBP .374

Totals - HR 43 RBI 128 BA .275 OBP .353


Need to replace - HR 45 RBI 125 going higher or the same on BA and OBP

Screams one player.......... EDWIN ENCARNACION

Team is better off replacing Joey Bats and Saunders with Morales and Pearce. But they need to bring back EE.

If you bring in Fowler, the team gets better at D, speed and OBP. Maybe even average. But we lose power from last year.

The 2 acquisitions so far have kept us competitive. The next move is the key. Do we get a Fowler or EE to key us over the top in the East. Or do we piece mail it.

You don't need to replace HRs. The team was awful with RISP last year because they had too much of a HR or bust mentality. Guys like Morales, Pearce and Fowler put the ball in play. Is it as pretty as a HR? No, but a run is a run.
 

Leaftors

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Maybe its just my background, and what I'm doing for a living right now....but where people see the Pearce signing (coupled with the Morales signing) as a door closed on Edwin, I see the perfect negotiating leverage against Paul Kinzer.

I don't "need" your guy. I like him, love him actually. But don't need him. Neither do the Stros, neither do the Yanks; Rangers say they're going internal at 1B\DH, Boston says they're out. The Dodgers aren't going to bail you out, neither are the Angels, and I think the idiots in Seattle are about to enter escrow over that Cano deal they came of leftfield to sign a couple years back.

That 4 year deal at $20MM sounds awfully good right now. Jackass.

Exactly. Very, very well said
 

BlueForever

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You don't need to replace HRs. The team was awful with RISP last year because they had too much of a HR or bust mentality. Guys like Morales, Pearce and Fowler put the ball in play. Is it as pretty as a HR? No, but a run is a run.

Agreed but we replaced 2 out of the 3 players with players like you suggest. Bringing back EE does multiple things....

1. Great clubhouse guy team rallies around
2. Best pure hitter and probably best run producer in our lineup
3. Appeases the fans, fills the seats
 

Canada4Gold

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Dec 22, 2010
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Firstly, I'm not freaking out. You're telling me I am. All I said was that to the casual fan like myself, it doesn't seem like he's (Pearce) is as great as some on here are making him out to be. That's all. In fact, I said I'd be patient to see how it all turns out. You're telling me I am freaking out cause it's always more fun to make things sound more dramatic than that are.

As far as spending 40-45 million, we will see where it all shakes out in April. The off-season is not over. The ship perhaps hasn't totally sailed on EE or Bautista....but as a fan, I'm not thrilled with the signing. That's all I said....none of this rabble rabble fire everyone hyperbole you've evidently attributed to me. I'm not sure how my couple of sentences led you to generalize as much as you did, but whatever.

Fair enough, I perhaps over-emphasized your lack of excitement for the deal. I apologize.

If they brought back EE they would have had to go cheap on the outfield, stick with Upton who was terrible, Carrera would was less terrible but still not good, hope Pompey suddenly finds it(my favorite option of the 3), or some cheap bad free agent option, and they would have had to pick 2 of those 4 options to start.

Then there's the pen, which they may have also had to cheap out on. Osuna's great but a lot of the disdain from the more casual viewer this past year was the blown leads from the pen.

Morales was probably more of a the signing that hinted at EE being gone. Morales and EE at 1B/DH would have went against what they've been saying they've wanted, which is more versatility. Now we know they had an offer of 4/80 on the table and pulled it and signed Morales instead.

If we're directly replacing Edwin in our minds, it's Morales that's replacing him. That big power bat, at 1st but mostly DH. He could hit 40 homeruns this year. 30 or 35 is more likely.

This is just a value signing from a guy who can hit well over a 100 game sample in a year. It adds versatility, and production, all the while allowing you to allocate the bigger money to other areas of need. Yeah he might not be able to play 150 games but if he only plays 100 he still adds plenty of value. Especially for the amount spent.

If the choice is EE + cheap pen + cheap OF or Fowler/Jose + Pearce + Mid range pen arm that choice is easy for me. Sure there's less power, but we still added Morales, and Jose is still an option, the HR's are still there.

It's not a sexy move, but the money is still there for 1 of the top tier guys, and these are the types of underrated moves that you need to add additional value to your roster to help you win ball games.

You don't have to get excited about it, but that doesn't mean you have to tell or we signed Carlo Colaiacovo or tell us you're not buying what we're selling, we're not selling anything. We understand that for this roster to make the playoffs next year a vlue signing like this that adds additional wins for cheap is vital and we're happy about it.

Still no one has explained the games played thing with Pearce. He's either very injury prone, or he's a platoon player, or he's a guy that has been incorrectly utilized by all the teams he's played for.

If he mashes the way you say he does, how come his GP and his AB's are so low over his career.

A bit of both. As far as I know he was underutilized early in his career, some of that was believing he needed to be platooned. Once given more time the past couple years he's had some injuries.

there's certainly some injury risk involved, but the numbers suggest he need not be platooned. But even at 100 games of production I think this is a steal. I know you're not into advanced stats, but 1 fWAR usually costs about 8 or 9 million dollars in free agency. So he'd need to put up roughly 1.5 fWAR over the 2 years to be worth the contract. or 3/4 of a fWAR per year. The past 3 years he's put up 2.0, 0.4, and 4.9 averaging 93 games per year. If he stays the same and plays the same there should be plenty of surplus value here. If he can survive the rigors of a full season and get say even 140 games it's highway robbery.
 
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