Pre-Game Talk: nyrcar

[MrazeksVengeance]

I'm not a Fleury fan, and a stretch of good play for him doesn't do any more for me than Gardiner playing better does for you. I think top pair feels like a big exaggeration.

Well, Pesce and Hamilton were injured so he was a second-best defenseman for a time.

 

[cptjeff]

I'm not a Fleury fan, and a stretch of good play for him doesn't do any more for me than Gardiner playing better does for you. I think top pair feels like a big exaggeration.

For most of the season, Gardiner was below replacement level. He actively hurt the team. He wasn't as bad down the stretch, but he was still a very, very long way from good. Fleury was replacement level-ish for most of the season, but with more ice time down the stretch he got to be good. Extremely good.

I haven't been a Fleury booster in the past, but he really took a big step forward this year with more reps. And Gardiner, this entire season, has ranged from "abjectly terrible" to "maybe on par with Frank Kaberle". There is nothing, apart from trying to salvage that contract, that makes me want to put him on the ice for anything.

 

[A Star is Burns]

For most of the season, Gardiner was below replacement level. He actively hurt the team. He wasn't as bad down the stretch, but he was still a very, very long way from good. Fleury was replacement level-ish for most of the season, but with more ice time down the stretch he got to be good. Extremely good.

I haven't been a Fleury booster in the past, but he really took a big step forward this year with more reps. And Gardiner, this entire season, has ranged from "abjectly terrible" to "maybe on par with Frank Kaberle". There is nothing, apart from trying to salvage that contract, that makes me want to put him on the ice for anything.

I still think extremely good is a big time exaggeration. That's fine, we just differ on how we feel. If Fleury gets the nod, good on him, and I'll root for him as always. I still remember him being pretty inconsistent even when improved, but that's just how I saw it.

Gardiner was rough for a lot of the year, but I do think he showed better play down the stretch as well, but a lot of people held on to the early season opinions. I think the time off will have done him some good, and I'd rather have him in the lineup to start. Just my opinion on the two for now. We'll see how it all goes.

 

[bleedgreen]

Fleury has outplayed Jake this season and in the parlance of our times.....ainec.

On whichever pairing you want to call it.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

I want Fleury. He's not paired with TvR.

Fleury has outplayed Jake this season and in the parlance of our times.....ainec.

On whichever pairing you want to call it.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Taking our feelings out of it, and any possible changes that may occur as camp progresses, if we only looked at today's pairings, who do we assume would be the third pair of the Gardiner and Fleury pairs? I'm not making a point, just curious if we think as it stands we'd feel they are leaning toward either pair just based on who was put together?

 

[bleedgreen]

Taking our feelings out of it, and any possible changes that may occur as camp progresses, if we only looked at today's pairings, who do we assume would be the third pair of the Gardiner and Fleury pairs? I'm not making a point, just curious if we think as it stands we'd feel they are leaning toward either pair just based on who was put together?

I think Rod really likes Edmunson, especially the snarl which we will need in the playoffs. TVR doesn’t have it and hasn’t had his best season.

Wouldn’t shock me to see Rod having Edmunson over TVR at this point.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Edmundson would be good against a heavy team.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I really really really wish Pesce was healthy enough to play this round but it is what it is. Can't take a risk on this gimmick of a playoffs but the D makes me nervous, especially the right side.

- Hamilton is coming off of injury so we don't know how he'll perform
- Vatanen is a complete mystery box: hasn't played a single game with us AND is coming off an injury
- Edmundson and TVR weren't great at various points this year
- Gardiner was terrible to start the year, but played much better in the last month
- Skej never got started with us and was super inconsistent which was to be expected in such a short time frame
- Fleury really stepped it up at the end of the year but how will the break affect that momentum?

It's a clean slate really. Will Gardiner finally be healthy and we can see him at or close to his peak? Will the break help or hurt guys who were playing well/poorly? We really don't know.

You go to camp, see how everyone is doing and go from there. You put out the best roster based on the information you have at the time. You're probably going to have to play some hunches on guys who maybe look a bit rusty but have a proven track record and hope that when things ramp up they can bring it.

Mrazek or Reimer? I think you go with Mrazek to start as he has the higher ceiling but it would be an incredibly short leash. Between the two of them you just hope that one of them is 'on' enough to bring some consistency and stability to the net.

 

[SlavinAway]

Edmundson would be good against a heavy team.

The Fleury-Edmundson pair is the best option in this regard.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

@tarheelhockey

REQUESTING PERMISSION TO POST THIS ON THE PUBLIC BOARD

 

[2Minutes4Surging]

Gardiner is just too slow. He cannot recover from the inevitable mistake and he chokes in big moments. He makes me nervous every time he is on the ice against the other team's top 6. Unless something has changed over the break, I do not feel comfortable with him in the line-up for the playoffs.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Gardiner is just too slow. He cannot recover from the inevitable mistake and he chokes in big moments. He makes me nervous every time he is on the ice against the other team's top 6. Unless something has changed over the break, I do not feel comfortable with him in the line-up for the playoffs.

I thought that his skating looked much closer to the Leafs version of Gardiner by the 2nd half. He was never a great skater in terms of speed, but he was always pretty mobile, particularly laterally, and was sort of like the defensive version of Nino where he's really strong on his feet (hence his possession metrics always being very high) but not super-fast. I think that a good vacation has been helpful for his back, so we'll see if that type of game comes back when the post-season starts.

 

[SlavinAway]

I thought that his skating looked much closer to the Leafs version of Gardiner by the 2nd half. He was never a great skater in terms of speed, but he was always pretty mobile, particularly laterally, and was sort of like the defensive version of Nino where he's really strong on his feet (hence his possession metrics always being very high) but not super-fast. I think that a good vacation has been helpful for his back, so we'll see if that type of game comes back when the post-season starts.

Yeah Gardiner has never been relatively quick/fast but I thought a lot of the criticism on his skating was overblown. He's very mobile and I'm excited to see how he looks at 100% if he's there now. I actually feel similar about Pesce in regards to speed he's just not out of position as often as Gardiner was.

I think we get spoiled watching Slavin who has an extremely rare ability to recover even against the likes of Crosby and McDavid.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Gardiner was tied for our 4th leading scorer with Slavin after Jan 1. He was also starting to look better and the mistakes weren't quite as bad. It may not always look pretty, and I know a lot of people seem to have stuck in their head how he played early in the season, but I think he was already an asset and I'm hopeful the time off will have done any potential nagging ailments some good.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I trust the staff to be able to take a realistic look at our players and put the best team on the ice on August 1. If Gardiner's in that group, given the number of defensemen we have at our disposal, it will be because he belongs there.

 

[Canes]

Gardiner was tied for our 4th leading scorer with Slavin after Jan 1. He was also starting to look better and the mistakes weren't quite as bad. It may not always look pretty, and I know a lot of people seem to have stuck in their head how he played early in the season, but I think he was already an asset and I'm hopeful the time off will have done any potential nagging ailments some good.

Yet he still has the same amount of ES points as Fleury despite almost twice the ES icetime. If we want him for the PP, then sit a forward and play 7 d-men because Gardiner is still much more of a liability than Fleury ever was for quite some time now.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Yet he still has the same amount of ES points as Fleury despite almost twice the ES icetime. If we want him for the PP, then sit a forward and play 7 d-men because Gardiner is still much more of a liability than Fleury ever was for quite some time now.

Rod would sooner skip leg day than go with 7 defenseman if he wasn’t forced into it by a depleted roster.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Yet he still has the same amount of ES points as Fleury despite almost twice the ES icetime. If we want him for the PP, then sit a forward and play 7 d-men because Gardiner is still much more of a liability than Fleury ever was for quite some time now.

I didn't even bring up Fleury for this point. Sit TVR and Edmundson for all I care. I think Gardiner was better than he's getting credit for.

 

[WreckingCrew]

I trust the staff to be able to take a realistic look at our players and put the best team on the ice on August 1. If Gardiner's in that group, given the number of defensemen we have at our disposal, it will be because he belongs there.

*PTSD flashbacks of TVR as 1RD*
Well, at least I would say that's mostly the case...granted there was no good option for 1RD when Pesce & Hamilton went down, but he was pretty brutal there. I want to say Edmundson could have done a little better there, maybe? Rod does have his "favorites" and tendencies towards leaning on vets, but yea I agree, in a group of 6 with healthy manpower (sans Pesce), you'd be hard pressed to have anyone there that didn't mostly earn it. You've got Gardiner, Fleury, Edmundson, & TVR battling for the bottom 2 spots

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I think Skjei and Vatanen are talented enough to be on the 2nd pair. At the same time, I would prefer to pair them with defenders that know the system.

Fleury-Vatanen
Skjei-TVR

 

[GoldiFox]

I think Skjei and Vatanen are talented enough to be on the 2nd pair. At the same time, I would prefer to pair them with defenders that know the system.

Fleury-Vatanen
Skjei-TVR

As someone said previously, with last change advantage Rod could stick that pair primarily with McGinn-Staal-Williams and roll all 5 mostly positionless. More offense would probably come from Skjei-Vatanen than the forwards.

 

[tarheelhockey]

1. Teravainen has taken just as many shots this year as the past two. He had 23 and 21 goals with shot% of 12.4 and 12.6. His shot selection may be 30% worse this year or it could be a degree of puck luck.
2. Per game, Teravainen was on the ice 39 seconds more at even strength and 3 seconds of power play time more than Svechnikov. Less than one shift per game. Svech took 320 shots Teravainen 317.
3. Shooting more frequently would mean passing less often and/or not holding the puck looking for a better option. Aho's shooting % was 18.4 and Svech's was 13.1. The sound argument is to say those strong numbers are partly due to Teravainen's ability to pass.
4. Other playmaking wingers seldom have shooting % above 11%. Voracek hasn't been above 10% in 7 years. Wheeler was under 11% for the previous 5 years, though he was above 12% this year. Even Gaudreau, who is definitely more of a shooter, has only been above 11% once in the past 4 seasons. Marner's career % is exactly 11%. In his 4 years as a Cane, TT's % is 10.5.
5. The "better" shot point is really chicken/egg. It is easy to remember when he passed up what looked like a really good shot. His mentality is to look for better options, which makes him, and arguably his line mates, more effective.

It would be terrific if Teravainen could become like Panarin and score 30+ goals while being near the top of the league in assists. However, he has been (and likely will continue to be) more like Wheeler. That being the case, he is shooting close to the rate he needs.

1. And everybody seemed to be on the same page in past years that he needed to shoot more. This is not new.

2. 39 seconds a game is a big difference over 82 games. Nearly an entire 60-minute game's worth of ice time. Having fewer shots over that time is a large distinction.

3. Nobody is saying TT should shoot when there's a great pass to be made. The issue is his reluctance to shoot when the shot is the correct choice.

4. It's understood that shooting percentages are going to go up and down. The issue isn't that TT doesn't shoot efficiently enough, it's that he passes on high-percentage shots.

5. TT himself has acknowledged that he needs to shoot more, and that Rod is telling him to shoot more, and that his teammates tell him to shoot more. That doesn't sound like chicken/egg, that sounds like a guy who recognizes he needs to shoot more.

It may very well be that he simply is what he is, and will never get around to improving this aspect of his game. But it most definitely is a weakness he is aware of and says he's working on.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

As someone said previously, with last change advantage Rod could stick that pair primarily with McGinn-Staal-Williams and roll all 5 mostly positionless. More offense would probably come from Skjei-Vatanen than the forwards.

the point is valid but, do there know where their forwards are for outlet passes and starting the transition to the O zone? Also, do either know where their are to be in support of the either? Seems like a lot of oops possibilities.

 

[HisIceness]

What concerns me about Gardiner is this, how many teams saw his gaffes against Boston in the playoffs and will now specifically target him because they know he's prone to f***-up? I mean, I watched the dude drop pass to a Bruin behind his own net in last years game 7. I guess you could say part of that was just another Leafs implosion in a game 7 at TD Garden but I also think that's just who Gardiner is. We all saw Ovechkin "target" Dougie last Spring, I have little doubt that Gards will be a "target" himself going forward.

I know CDH was and is injury-prone, but I also thought he was solid in his own end and did the little things that led to scoring chances. In other words, I trusted him more than I do Gardiner.