Nylander/Jokiharju Trade Talk 2

[bwana63]

Outside of all the good things Nylander did game one he didnt really do much...more as this story develops

lol. Yes, do keep us posted.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse and repeat the comments I've previously made about the trade, nor will I go and talk shit about Nylander (who I do like as a prospect).

What I will say is this narrative that the Hawks favored Mitchell over Jokiharju has to f***ing die already. It's completely unsubstantiated, and the only proof that we have of management preferring either of them is back during their draft, where Joki was selected first.

So just because we traded Joki doesn't mean management picked their preferred player. It could simply mean that Bowman wanted Nylander bad enough and the price for him was Joki; that Buffalo wouldn't settle for what they might have felt was a lesser asset in Mitchell. There is zero evidence one way or the other about why one is here and the other was traded away.

I expect this Mitchell>>>Joki narrative from Musto, but can only shake my head when others do it too. And I say this as a guy who actually really likes Mitchell's progression and his style of play.

 

[BobbyJet]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse and repeat the comments I've previously made about the trade, nor will I go and talk **** about Nylander (who I do like as a prospect).

What I will say is this narrative that the Hawks favored Mitchell over Jokiharju has to ****ing die already. It's completely unsubstantiated, and the only proof that we have of management preferring either of them is back during their draft, where Joki was selected first.

So just because we traded Joki doesn't mean management picked their preferred player. It could simply mean that Bowman wanted Nylander bad enough and the price for him was Joki; that Buffalo wouldn't settle for what they might have felt was a lesser asset in Mitchell. There is zero evidence one way or the other about why one is here and the other was traded away.

I expect this Mitchell>>>Joki narrative from Musto, but can only shake my head when others do it too. And I say this as a guy who actually really likes Mitchell's progression and his style of play.

Yeah, to be frank it's way too early for any of this speculation. I realize it's fun to predict players potential, but right now that is pretty much all there is to compare.

 

[BK]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse and repeat the comments I've previously made about the trade, nor will I go and talk **** about Nylander (who I do like as a prospect).

What I will say is this narrative that the Hawks favored Mitchell over Jokiharju has to ****ing die already. It's completely unsubstantiated, and the only proof that we have of management preferring either of them is back during their draft, where Joki was selected first.

So just because we traded Joki doesn't mean management picked their preferred player. It could simply mean that Bowman wanted Nylander bad enough and the price for him was Joki; that Buffalo wouldn't settle for what they might have felt was a lesser asset in Mitchell. There is zero evidence one way or the other about why one is here and the other was traded away.

I expect this Mitchell>>>Joki narrative from Musto, but can only shake my head when others do it too. And I say this as a guy who actually really likes Mitchell's progression and his style of play

I don't think it is an absurd idea to think the Hawks preferred Mitchell over Joker but I also think Joker had more value in the market compared to Mitchell. There are multiple factors to consider.

Draft position means very little as we are talking about picks that were 28 spots apart and we are 2-3 years removed from that draft. Development changes things.

Also, other than Musto who is saying Mitchell>>>>>Jesus>>>>Joker?

 

[bwana63]

I don't think it is an absurd idea to think the Hawks preferred Mitchell over Joker but I also think Joker had more value in the market compared to Mitchell. There are multiple factors to consider.

This. And that Joker is expansion draft eligible and Mitchell isn't.

 

[echlfreak]

Hawks were deep on D depth and weak on F depth. It was a chance to add depth to F using a disposable D. Simple as that.

Nylander has high-end potential and in playing with Kane and Toews that potential has a chance to shine.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I don't think it is an absurd idea to think the Hawks preferred Mitchell over Joker but I also think Joker had more value in the market compared to Mitchell. There are multiple factors to consider.

Draft position means very little as we are talking about picks that were 28 spots apart and we are 2-3 years removed from that draft. Development changes things.

Also, other than Musto who is saying Mitchell>>>>>Jesus>>>>Joker?

Plenty here have decided, since the trade, that Mitchell has surpassed Jokiharju. Only a few here thought more highly of IM at the time. The 'greater than' part was slightly hyperbole.

It's possible that management became higher on Mitchell since the 2017 draft, but there is zero evidence one way or the other. My point in the previous comment was that there is no way of knowing how the Hawks really felt about the two and I was criticizing those posters here who speak in absolutes about it.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Plenty here have decided, since the trade, that Mitchell has surpassed Jokiharju. Only a few here thought more highly of I'm at the time. The 'greater than' part was slightly hyperbole.

It's possible that management became higher on Mitchell since the 2017 draft, but there is zero evidence one way or the other. My point in the previous comment was that there is no way of knowing how the Hawks really felt about the two and I was criticizing those posters here who speak in absolutes about it.

The fact Mitchell is still in the organization and Joker isn't provided some evidence, in itself, that they were higher on Mitchell, though. Plus other factors, like they would have had to make Joker available in the expansion draft.

 

[CallMeShaft]

The fact Mitchell is still in the organization and Joker isn't provided some evidence, in itself, that they were higher on Mitchell, though. Plus other factors, like they would have had to make Joker available in the expansion draft.

That's not evidence of anything other than Joki was someone Buffalo asked for. You saying the Hawks management preferred Mitchell is purely conjecture at this point.

 

[Blackhawks]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse and repeat the comments I've previously made about the trade, nor will I go and talk **** about Nylander (who I do like as a prospect).

What I will say is this narrative that the Hawks favored Mitchell over Jokiharju has to ****ing die already. It's completely unsubstantiated, and the only proof that we have of management preferring either of them is back during their draft, where Joki was selected first.

So just because we traded Joki doesn't mean management picked their preferred player. It could simply mean that Bowman wanted Nylander bad enough and the price for him was Joki; that Buffalo wouldn't settle for what they might have felt was a lesser asset in Mitchell. There is zero evidence one way or the other about why one is here and the other was traded away.

I expect this Mitchell>>>Joki narrative from Musto, but can only shake my head when others do it too. And I say this as a guy who actually really likes Mitchell's progression and his style of play.

If a theory(lie) is repeated long enough it becomes accepted as reality eventually

 

[ChiHawks10]

That's not evidence of anything other than Joki was someone Buffalo asked for. You saying the Hawks management preferred Mitchell is purely conjecture at this point.

I have no stake in this. I'm not someone who has said they were higher on Mitchell. I'm just throwing out shit that could provide some evidence. If they were higher on Joker in comparison to Mitchell, Joker would probably still be here. Just my opinion. Plus the other factors that impacted the decision, like expansion draft eligibility, so maybe he wouldn't have been, either way. I don't know.

And you're right, it is conjecture, but it's not like it's an opinion formed on the basis of nothing.

 

[Kevin Musto]

I love that we've been talking about Mitchell a lot today

 

[Blackhawks]

I have no stake in this. I'm not someone who has said they were higher on Mitchell. I'm just throwing out **** that could provide some evidence. If they were higher on Joker in comparison to Mitchell, Joker would probably still be here. Just my opinion. Plus the other factors that impacted the decision, like expansion draft eligibility, so maybe he wouldn't have been, either way. I don't know.

And you're right, it is conjecture, but it's not like it's an opinion formed on the basis of nothing.

Trading Joker doesn’t mean they preferred Mitchell over him, it means they preferred Nylander over him... These theories are just someone’s wild imagination, there is zero logic behind them. Many here were saying that the Hawks preferred Schmaltz over TT, that was another mind boggling one, as why not have both? Or the theory of that the only way to move Bickel was TT and only TT, TT was the only move done or the Hawks would gavevforfitted the season, zero other avenues, NONE!

If you dig a little deep as to why these theories arise it’s not that hard to see it’s simple tactics for the fans to make them selves feel better about potential bad moves at the time to keep their faith in management, because otherwise some of these moves just look idiotic.

 

[BK]

Trading Joker doesn’t mean they preferred Mitchell over him, it means they preferred Nylander over him... These theories are just someone’s wild imagination, there is zero logic behind them. Many here were saying that the Hawks preferred Schmaltz over TT, that was another mind boggling one, as why not have both? Or the theory of that the only way to move Bickel was TT and only TT, TT was the only move done or the Hawks would gavevforfitted the season, zero other avenues, NONE!

If you dig a little deep as to why these theories arise it’s not that hard to see it’s simple tactics for the fans to make them selves feel better about potential bad moves at the time to keep their faith in management, because otherwise some of these moves just look idiotic.

Bold: This is no where close accurate. There is a lot of logic there. Please show where logic was not used (minus Musto when he goes Musto). You are the one who rarely uses logic and just spouts gibberish. This is another example.

Schmatlz was coming off of a great college season in which they won a nation championship and was a huge contributor. He was a highly regarded prospect who was also a 1st round pick. With that being said, TT was coming off a decent season and a good playoff. It was pretty well reported that the Cane demanded TT in order to take Bickell. This is not some wild rumor like you claim it is. You also have zero proof that there were other deals to be made. You literally have never provide a single piece of proof backing up your "theory". To the shock of no one, you can't cite or showcase anything backing up your claim.

The last part is just gibberish.

 

[BK]

If a theory(lie) is repeated long enough it becomes accepted as reality eventually

Please cite the said lies.

Spoiler

Oh wait you can't.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I have no stake in this. I'm not someone who has said they were higher on Mitchell. I'm just throwing out **** that could provide some evidence. If they were higher on Joker in comparison to Mitchell, Joker would probably still be here. Just my opinion. Plus the other factors that impacted the decision, like expansion draft eligibility, so maybe he wouldn't have been, either way. I don't know.

And you're right, it is conjecture, but it's not like it's an opinion formed on the basis of nothing.

The way I view it is in one of two ways.

1. The Hawks liked Mitchell more. Maybe they thought he had more skill than Jokiharju, maybe they thought it was about even, but liked the fact they wouldn't need to protect Mitchell in the expansion draft. Either way, they preferred Ian.

2. Buffalo wasn't willing to part with Nylander for Mitchell. It takes two to tango, and if they weren't interested in Mitchell, then Bowman would've had to have parted ways with something they did want, which'd be Joki.

Nobody here knows the full truth. Given that Joki had some success at an early age in the NHL, compared to Joki who had merely good numbers in the NCAA (granted, his team last year seemed lackluster), I'd imagine Joki had more perceived value by just about every GM in the league over Mitchell; not to mention one was a 1st round pick and the other a 2nd round pick just two years before the trade (which isn't a ton of time for ones' stock to rise so much, especially compared to a guy who has NHL experience). Of course, who the hell knows the truth. It just gets annoying seeing so many pumping up the tires of a current prospect who we mostly all agreed was less impressive to a former prospect just a few months ago.

And again, to clear the air before someone tries replying to this comment, I liked both guys. Preferred Joki, but have always been high on Mitchell too. Hell, I'm starting to like Nylander, even though I still question the value somewhat.

 

[AmericanDream]

Trading Joker doesn’t mean they preferred Mitchell over him, it means they preferred Nylander over him... These theories are just someone’s wild imagination, there is zero logic behind them. Many here were saying that the Hawks preferred Schmaltz over TT, that was another mind boggling one, as why not have both? Or the theory of that the only way to move Bickel was TT and only TT, TT was the only move done or the Hawks would gavevforfitted the season, zero other avenues, NONE!

If you dig a little deep as to why these theories arise it’s not that hard to see it’s simple tactics for the fans to make them selves feel better about potential bad moves at the time to keep their faith in management, because otherwise some of these moves just look idiotic.

this is just one big pile of nonsense...holy hell man, go back on your hiatus - we will see ya come playoff time.

 

[BK]

The way I view it is in one of two ways.

1. The Hawks liked Mitchell more. Maybe they thought he had more skill than Jokiharju, maybe they thought it was about even, but liked the fact they wouldn't need to protect Mitchell in the expansion draft. Either way, they preferred Ian.

2. Buffalo wasn't willing to part with Nylander for Mitchell. It takes two to tango, and if they weren't interested in Mitchell, then Bowman would've had to have parted ways with something they did want, which'd be Joki.

Nobody here knows the full truth. Given that Joki had some success at an early age in the NHL, compared to Joki who had merely good numbers in the NCAA (granted, his team last year seemed lackluster), I'd imagine Joki had more perceived value by just about every GM in the league over Mitchell; not to mention one was a 1st round pick and the other a 2nd round pick just two years before the trade (which isn't a ton of time for ones' stock to rise so much, especially compared to a guy who has NHL experience). Of course, who the hell knows the truth. It just gets annoying seeing so many pumping up the tires of a current prospect who we mostly all agreed was less impressive to a former prospect just a few months ago.

And again, to clear the air before someone tries replying to this comment, I liked both guys. Preferred Joki, but have always been high on Mitchell too. Hell, I'm starting to like Nylander, even though I still question the value somewhat.

Both views are logic based and most likely have some truth to them. I mentioned similar thoughts earlier.

I am a fan of both prospects. Joker has the higher floor and Mitchell has the higher ceiling to me.

 

[CallMeShaft]

Bold: This is no where close accurate. There is a lot of logic there. Please show where logic was not used (minus Musto when he goes Musto).

Schmatlz was coming off of a great college season in which they won a nation championship and was a huge contributor. He was a highly regarded prospect who was also a 1st round pick. With that being said, TT was coming off a decent season and a good playoff. It was pretty well reported that the Cane demanded TT in order to take Bickell. This is not some wild rumor like you claim it is. You also have zero proof that there were other deals to be made. You literally have never provide a single piece of proof backing up your "theory". To the shock of no one, you can't cite or showcase anything backing up your claim.

The last part is just gibberish.

I do also recall that Canes asked for TT. Maybe one could make the argument that the Hawks should've tried waiting for another team to make a less ridiculous counter offer, but it was true that at that time, Canes would only do it for Teravainen.

I do think you are wrong, however, about the last part being gibberish. The first paragraph of his post consisted of the word "gavevforfitted", which is so much gibberish it'd make Fiddy and the current President envious. So if anything, all of it was gibberish.

 

[AmericanDream]

it's pretty f***ing obvious to me the Hawks were higher on Mitchell than Joker..I also do not think the expansion draft 2 years away was a "big" factor but possibly extra insurance though. I also don't think the Hawks were enamored with Joker's handling of his demotion/his comments/his attitude. I said likely immaturity and no big deal, but there could be more that was said that we were not aware of that raised more red flags..

#1. Hawks are higher on Mitchell than Joker - common sense.

#2. Haws are higher on Nylander than Joker - common sense

#3. I am still a believer in Joker as a legit top 4 dman, actually watching him right now in the CBJ vs Buff game...Joker hasn't been good nor bad, just meh tonight...but the kid still has as much potential to be a top 4 dman over there as Nylander does of being a top 6 winger here.

 

[BK]

I do also recall that Canes asked for TT. Maybe one could make the argument that the Hawks should've tried waiting for another team to make a less ridiculous counter offer, but it was true that at that time, Canes would only do it for Teravainen.

I do think you are wrong, however, about the last part being gibberish. The first paragraph of his post consisted of the word "gavevforfitted", which is so much gibberish it'd make Fiddy and the current President envious. So if anything, all of it was gibberish.

"Deflection from a lack of substance" would be a better choice of words. Either way it lacks anything of substance is just his typical lazy narrative. I am using gibberish the sense that it was meaningless speech.

 

[CallMeShaft]

it's pretty ****ing obvious to me the Hawks were higher on Mitchell than Joker..I also do not think the expansion draft 2 years away was a "big" factor but possibly extra insurance though. I also don't think the Hawks were enamored with Joker's handling of his demotion/his comments/his attitude. I said likely immaturity and no big deal, but there could be more that was said that we were not aware of that raised more red flags..

#1. Hawks are higher on Mitchell than Joker - common sense.

#2. Haws are higher on Nylander than Joker - common sense

#3. I am still a believer in Joker as a legit top 4 dman, actually watching him right now in the CBJ vs Buff game...Joker hasn't been good nor bad, just meh tonight...but the kid still has as much potential to be a top 4 dman over there as Nylander does of being a top 6 winger here.

Wait, aren't you banned from comparing Finns to Americans?!?

 

[BK]

Wait, aren't you banned from comparing Finns to Americans?!?

I lol'd.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I lol'd.

I did too when I typed that. Sometimes I crack myself up.

 

[AmericanDream]

Wait, aren't you banned from comparing Finns to Americans?!?

I am, no Americans being compared here lol....Mitchell is a CANADIAN...America's drunk ugly cousin...