Blue Jays Discussion: No longer the off-season. It's time for real baseball

[Blitzkrug]

If?

Well i mean, i don't like wishing injury on a player and i feel like saying he'll end up hurt again is enough to actually send him to the DL.

 

[ryno23]

The idea of Jansen bunting in extra innings wasn't a bad move. You already scored 1 run and now if Jansen moves him over to 3rd with 1 out now you have Semien up to cash him in for a 2 run lead. The problem is players don't practice it anymore. I would have told Jansen to hit the ball to the right side even a little dribbler moves him across to 3rd even swing late to slice it that way vs trying to bunt.

Managers need to know their personnel and who can handle the bat and who can't.

Moving Grichuk over with a bunt was an ok call cause now you have him at 3rd with less than 2 outs. You now have multiple ways to score him from 3rd. Pass ball, wild pitch, balk, error in the infield, base hit, sac fly vs being at 2B needing a basehit

The problem is today's hitter don't practice fundamental baseball anymore. With the 3 outcome game K, BB, or homer guys are always looking to do damage by trying to hit homers. There is no hitting the ball to the right side for a righty or a lefty pulling the ball thru the 3-4 hole. The spreadsheet and numbers now say you are better off swinging from your ass and trying to hit it out vs doing simple things to help win. More damage can be done on the swinging out of your ass than moving a runner along.

Look at Vlad's 1st AB. He wasn't swinging out of his ass and hit a rope back thru the box. His launch angle is a few degrees different on contact and that could have been extra bases or homer. He wasn't trying to kill the ball he let the velocity of the pitcher help with his exit velocity on that hit.

Imagine this was game 7 of the World Series and the same scenario happens. Maybe you are up 3 in the top of 9 and by doing the little things Jansen failed to do cost you that 4th run then the Dodgers come back and hit a walk-off grand slam to beat you hahahaha.

All seriousness teams should be getting hitters to work the whole field, learn situational hitting you never know when it means the difference between winning or losing.

Imagine being a great hitting team where you can beat teams with the long ball but also manufacture runs playing small ball. You avoid the long ball scoring droughts and are more consistentt in scoring

 

[Mad hatter]

Thanks. Is Barker on every game?

I’m sorry I wouldn’t know who does the shows now. I stopped listening because I really didn’t enjoy Mike Wilner .

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Dang, Merryweather looking sexy in relief. Can he go back to back though? I still think they should use him as an opener. Less stress on the shoulder.

Would have loved a healthy Yates, but we potentially have some nasty "young" arms in the bullpen going forward.

Romano RHP
Merryweather RHP
Murphy RHP
Mayza LHP
Borucki LHP
Bergen LHP
Thornton RHP
Payamps RHP
Castro RHP

 

[canucksfan]

The idea of Jansen bunting in extra innings wasn't a bad move. You already scored 1 run and now if Jansen moves him over to 3rd with 1 out now you have Semien up to cash him in for a 2 run lead. The problem is players don't practice it anymore. I would have told Jansen to hit the ball to the right side even a little dribbler moves him across to 3rd even swing late to slice it that way vs trying to bunt.

Managers need to know their personnel and who can handle the bat and who can't.

Moving Grichuk over with a bunt was an ok call cause now you have him at 3rd with less than 2 outs. You now have multiple ways to score him from 3rd. Pass ball, wild pitch, balk, error in the infield, base hit, sac fly vs being at 2B needing a basehit

The problem is today's hitter don't practice fundamental baseball anymore. With the 3 outcome game K, BB, or homer guys are always looking to do damage by trying to hit homers. There is no hitting the ball to the right side for a righty or a lefty pulling the ball thru the 3-4 hole. The spreadsheet and numbers now say you are better off swinging from your ass and trying to hit it out vs doing simple things to help win. More damage can be done on the swinging out of your ass than moving a runner along.

Look at Vlad's 1st AB. He wasn't swinging out of his ass and hit a rope back thru the box. His launch angle is a few degrees different on contact and that could have been extra bases or homer. He wasn't trying to kill the ball he let the velocity of the pitcher help with his exit velocity on that hit.

Imagine this was game 7 of the World Series and the same scenario happens. Maybe you are up 3 in the top of 9 and by doing the little things Jansen failed to do cost you that 4th run then the Dodgers come back and hit a walk-off grand slam to beat you hahahaha.

All seriousness teams should be getting hitters to work the whole field, learn situational hitting you never know when it means the difference between winning or losing.

Imagine being a great hitting team where you can beat teams with the long ball but also manufacture runs playing small ball. You avoid the long ball scoring droughts and are more consistentt in scoring

Jansen had good at-bats and sacrifice bunting for the most part is a dumb move. Bunting when there are two strikes is extremely dumb unless the pitcher is batting. Jansen can move Grichuk over to third without bunting such as a flyball or hitting it to the right side.

Players struggle with bunting so I don't get the point of doing it especially when they suck at bunting.

 

[canucksfan]

Never knew or realized the difference in velocity between the changeup and FB is nuts.

 

[ryno23]

Jansen had good at-bats and sacrifice bunting for the most part is a dumb move. Bunting when there are two strikes is extremely dumb unless the pitcher is batting. Jansen can move Grichuk over to third without bunting such as a flyball or hitting it to the right side.

Players struggle with bunting so I don't get the point of doing it especially when they suck at bunting.

That's my point bunting is not taught in the minor leagues or even youth ball anymore as it's now all about launch angle and what the spreadsheet tells you what to do in each scenario or the odds of scoring based on circumstances.

If players were able to execute a simple play as a bunt which is one of the easiest things to do at the plate squaring around putting the bat on the ball without swinging but guys just can't do it anymore. It's not taught anymore cause the math wizards say you don't give up runs based on a formula.

Even worse is tons of righties can't hit the ball behind a runner to advance him to another base. The better play was Jansen moving the runner even with a week ground ball to the right side.

One day an organization is going back to teaching fundamentals in the minor leagues so players are more well-rounded at the plate and able to execute in all situations.

Bunting if frowned upon these days cause the next batter is not able to execute the next play in the sequence as again it's all about swinging without a purpose just trying to launch for a homer. Jansen does his job then all Semiens has to do is put the ball in play with a sac fly, basehit. The infield would have moved in giving Semien a better advantage to drive a ball thru the infield

 

[canucksfan]

That's my point bunting is not taught in the minor leagues or even youth ball anymore as it's now all about launch angle and what the spreadsheet tells you what to do in each scenario or the odds of scoring based on circumstances.

If players were able to execute a simple play as a bunt which is one of the easiest things to do at the plate squaring around putting the bat on the ball without swinging but guys just can't do it anymore. It's not taught anymore cause the math wizards say you don't give up runs based on a formula.

Even worse is tons of righties can't hit the ball behind a runner to advance him to another base. The better play was Jansen moving the runner even with a week ground ball to the right side.

One day an organization is going back to teaching fundamentals in the minor leagues so players are more well-rounded at the plate and able to execute in all situations.

Bunting if frowned upon these days cause the next batter is not able to execute the next play in the sequence as again it's all about swinging without a purpose just trying to launch for a homer. Jansen does his job then all Semiens has to do is put the ball in play with a sac fly, basehit. The infield would have moved in giving Semien a better advantage to drive a ball thru the infield

It's not based on a formula though, it's based on probability. I don't have the numbers but a team is more likely to score the runner on second with no outs than a runner that is on third with one out. Furthermore, a team has more of a chance of scoring more runs with a runner on second with no out than a runner on third with one out. This is assuming that the bunt actually is executed.

Teams won't focus on bunting because, for the most part, sacrifice bunting is not the smart move.

 

[Morgs]

Bunting is outdated and stupid, save for pitchers (who shouldn't be hitting anyway) and for using exaggerated shifts to your advantage.

Theres no place in baseball to bunt a guy from 2nd to 3rd to waste an out. If a hit is the only thing that's going to score him from 3rd, he's likely going to score from 2nd as well.

 

[hoc123]

Also keep in mind with the rise of strikeouts, bunting for sacrifice is less likely to work out, since the next hitter needs to hit the ball in play for the sacrifice to be worthwhile.

 

[The Nemesis]

Bunting is outdated and stupid, save for pitchers (who shouldn't be hitting anyway) and for using exaggerated shifts to your advantage.

Theres no place in baseball to bunt a guy from 2nd to 3rd to waste an out. If a hit is the only thing that's going to score him from 3rd, he's likely going to score from 2nd as well.

The only other time bunting has value is when you're only playing for a single run (so basically 9th inning and beyond in a tie game as the home team or trailing by a single run in a similar situation as either home or away). If it's vitally important to get a run and just one run then go ahead and bunt.

Otherwise yeah, history shows that trading an out for 90 feet of baserunner advancement is a bad deal. And that's what all this is, history. It's not evil math made up by nerds who never played the game and plug formulas into spreadsheets. It's the totality of occurrences in baseball that demonstrate likely outcomes. It's just that it's taken math to realize this because human beings are a lot crappier at seeing and correctly interpreting patterns than they like to believe they are.

 

[Scotianhab]

Bunting is outdated and stupid, save for pitchers (who shouldn't be hitting anyway) and for using exaggerated shifts to your advantage.

Theres no place in baseball to bunt a guy from 2nd to 3rd to waste an out. If a hit is the only thing that's going to score him from 3rd, he's likely going to score from 2nd as well.

Well if a runner is on 3rd a wild pitch or passed ball will score him without needing a hit. Will also draw the infield in as well. There’s pros and cons and personally I hate bunting but I get some of the reasoning.

 

[ryno23]

The only other time bunting has value is when you're only playing for a single run (so basically 9th inning and beyond in a tie game as the home team or trailing by a single run in a similar situation as either home or away). If it's vitally important to get a run and just one run then go ahead and bunt.

Otherwise yeah, history shows that trading an out for 90 feet of baserunner advancement is a bad deal. And that's what all this is, history. It's not evil math made up by nerds who never played the game and plug formulas into spreadsheets. It's the totality of occurrences in baseball that demonstrate likely outcomes. It's just that it's taken math to realize this because human beings are a lot crappier at seeing and correctly interpreting patterns than they like to believe they are.

Of course, bunting in the 1st inning is not smart but late in a game 8th if you are the home team, 9th or later if you are the away team can make sense. Bunting in the bottom of the 5th with runners on 1st and 2nd no out makes no sense.

The rise of the swing and miss has lead to bunting being viewed as dumb because fewer balls are put into play now with guys swinging for the fence with launch angles and such.

I know this board is full of younger posters but you go back and look at 80's baseball and bunting did work cause the next batter was able to execute what was needed to score a run. No front office had a math geek to tell them about probabilities and discourage fundamental baseball. 80's Cards used the stolen base and bunting to win a world series. This reliance on math came in during the late 90's and has gotten worse the past 5 years. You can argue baseball lost its footing as America's favorite sport when math took over the game. The game is simply boring now, takes too long as managers are making pitching changes running 4-5 bullpen guys deep each game so they can come in throw 99 strikeouts the side, and the next guy comes in and does the same.

Again different game now with the batter not concerned about striking out anymore and more worried about launch angle and hitting for power hence why you see fewer balls in play and guys hitting .200 but with 30 homers and that is good nowadays. Rob Deer hitting lol

Bunting still has a place in the game in the right situations and with the right people doing it and the right guy coming up next who can execute his part of the equation.

The international rule of a guy starting on 2nd in the 10th will lead to more debate as to if done properly it almost assures you of a run if you can teach the guys to execute properly.

One day the game will come back to its roots and bring more action to a game. It will take one or 2 teams to buck the math trend and reverse the math.

Nothing against the math but man it has sucked the life out of baseball and it's hard to watch a 3 hour game with barely any action on either side of the ball.

 

[ryno23]

Bunting is outdated and stupid, save for pitchers (who shouldn't be hitting anyway) and for using exaggerated shifts to your advantage.

Theres no place in baseball to bunt a guy from 2nd to 3rd to waste an out. If a hit is the only thing that's going to score him from 3rd, he's likely going to score from 2nd as well.

He can score from 3rd via wild pitch, pass ball, balk, infield error and infield hit. 5 ways to score from 3rd you can't score from 2nd. You also got a chance to get thrown out at the plate with a hit to the outfield if you were on 2nd unless you have a Shannon Stewart, Juan Pierre or Ben Revere trying to throw you out lol.

 

[The Nemesis]

Well if a runner is on 3rd a wild pitch or passed ball will score him without needing a hit. Will also draw the infield in as well. There’s pros and cons and personally I hate bunting but I get some of the reasoning.

I wouldn't be counting on wild pitches or passed balls as an impetus to make any sort of decision. I don't want to drown in all the representative math, but the way I figure it the chances of seeing a wild pitch are like maybe half a percent for any given pitch. You might as well be not bunting and hoping that the pitcher ends up walking a run in.

 

[Maestro84]

He can score from 3rd via wild pitch, pass ball, balk, infield error and infield hit. 5 ways to score from 3rd you can't score from 2nd. You also got a chance to get thrown out at the plate with a hit to the outfield if you were on 2nd unless you have a Shannon Stewart, Juan Pierre or Ben Revere trying to throw you out lol.

Juan Pierre slander will not be tolerated here or anywhere

 

[Maestro84]

Other than health, the starting pitching really needs improvement. Hitting and defense is there, bullpen seems to be there (losing Yates sucks but snagging quality relief arms prior to the deadline is not a difficult task), and this very young team is getting more experience which is always valuable.

Having Stripling, Roark and Ray starting every 5 days simply isn't good enough. Hopefully Shatkins can address this issue as the season progresses

 

[SDig14]

Very impressed with the entire infield defense today.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Maplebeasts]

April fools?

 

[hoglund]

Dang, Merryweather looking sexy in relief. Can he go back to back though? I still think they should use him as an opener. Less stress on the shoulder.

Would have loved a healthy Yates, but we potentially have some nasty "young" arms in the bullpen going forward.

Romano RHP
Merryweather RHP
Murphy RHP
Mayza LHP
Borucki LHP
Bergen LHP
Thornton RHP
Payamps RHP
Castro RHP

I think that they could use Merryweather back to back, Henke did it many times and he threw hard.

 

[Bjindaho]

1) Buck was literally fired for sac bunting. Throwing away outs is stupid. Asking more guys to steal is a better play.

2) As much as there are more ways to score, the Yanks weren't throwing the ball low which ruled out most of them

 

[Anthrax442]

 

[Da Cool Rula]

The only other time bunting has value is when you're only playing for a single run (so basically 9th inning and beyond in a tie game as the home team or trailing by a single run in a similar situation as either home or away). If it's vitally important to get a run and just one run then go ahead and bunt.

Otherwise yeah, history shows that trading an out for 90 feet of baserunner advancement is a bad deal. And that's what all this is, history. It's not evil math made up by nerds who never played the game and plug formulas into spreadsheets. It's the totality of occurrences in baseball that demonstrate likely outcomes. It's just that it's taken math to realize this because human beings are a lot crappier at seeing and correctly interpreting patterns than they like to believe they are.

There's something very "Dr.Strange" about this post.

 

[Bjindaho]

If this is the worst decision he makes, we are in for a good year.

It's nowhere near as egregious as the lineup and match-up mistakes last year.

Everyone was where they should be for game 1.