Nikita Zadorov: The Almost Dynasty and The Future Travesty Part 1; The Squabble

[Oakstream]

As a Sabres fan I love Murrays moves. He could have sit idle for 5 years and let this team be another Edmonton. He speeds up the rebuild and makes us better. Myers and Zadorov hurts but we have Risto, Bogo, Mccabe and Pysyk left. The team needed Kane and ROR and he got them without gutting the team.

This thread is a joke. Zadorov is the difference in becoming a dynasty? Lol. You make it sound like we won Mcdavid and then gave him away for a couple of old mediocre veterans.

 

[Sabre Dance]

It's going to be fun. Murray planned the 2 year rebuild and it went too perfect.

I think there is anger that it worked.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

It's going to be fun. Murray planned the 2 year rebuild and it went too perfect.

I think there is anger that it worked.

I'd hold off on saying things like "it worked" until we see the on ice results.

Unless you mean that the acquisition of NHL proven talent, in which case, yes. Murray has seen success in that respect.

 

[Kcoyote3]

It's going to be fun. Murray planned the 2 year rebuild and it went too perfect.

I think there is anger that it worked.

All hail the conquering king!

Nothing has worked out yet. Nothing has gone too perfect. There hasn't been a season of hockey yet from it. Both your opinion on it being successful on paper and my opinion of it not being successful have yet to be proven.

 

[Sabre Dance]

All hail the conquering king!

Nothing has worked out yet. Nothing has gone too perfect. There hasn't been a season of hockey yet from it. Both your opinion on it being successful on paper and my opinion of it not being successful have yet to be proven.

I think the attention it's still getting from people proves otherwise.

The tank was a success. Very little I would change today. The only thing I would try to do different is get Kane without trading Myers. I'm not sold on Bogosian=Myers like some Sabres fans.

 

[CoachBadkitten]

I'm curious as to how much credit Sabres fans give to Regier? I know he wasn't looked on very highly near his departure, but I always liked a lot of what he did. He got some great returns on guys like Pominville, Vanek, Regehr, Leopold, and was the GM when they moved up in two dofferent drafts to get Girgensons(2012) and Myers(2008). He did a really nice job stockpiling prospects and young pieces.

 

[MayDay]

I'm curious as to how much credit Sabres fans give to Regier? I know he wasn't looked on very highly near his departure, but I always liked a lot of what he did. He got some great returns on guys like Pominville, Vanek, Regehr, Leopold, and was the GM when they moved up in two dofferent drafts to get Girgensons(2012) and Myers(2008). He did a really nice job stockpiling prospects and young pieces.

I think the general consensus on Regier was that he was very good at getting good value when selling assets, but pretty poor at acquiring assets and team-building, and overall pretty mediocre at drafting and player development.

I do give him credit for doing a good job in sell-mode during the tear-down part of the rebuild, and amassing a great wealth of picks.

 

[HP00]

I'm curious as to how much credit Sabres fans give to Regier? I know he wasn't looked on very highly near his departure, but I always liked a lot of what he did. He got some great returns on guys like Pominville, Vanek, Regehr, Leopold, and was the GM when they moved up in two dofferent drafts to get Girgensons(2012) and Myers(2008). He did a really nice job stockpiling prospects and young pieces.

Regier was a fantastic trader in my opinion, he knew how to get assets but where he struggled was maintaining those assets until it was too late. Unfortunately his huge mistake in 2007 is his legacy because it forced us to revert to a core that wasn't ready or even complete enough to compete outside of a couple early first round exits. Don't call him Darth Regier for nothin'

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

I'm curious as to how much credit Sabres fans give to Regier? I know he wasn't looked on very highly near his departure, but I always liked a lot of what he did. He got some great returns on guys like Pominville, Vanek, Regehr, Leopold, and was the GM when they moved up in two dofferent drafts to get Girgensons(2012) and Myers(2008). He did a really nice job stockpiling prospects and young pieces.

Darcy gets the minimal amount of credit from me. Darcy's biggest flaw was that he overvalued his players. Darcy managed to receive good return on the players he overvalued, but at the end of the day he had a hard time giving up on players that weren't working. We had Tim Connolly on our team for far too many seasons because Darcy would not admit that the player would never meet his perceived potential.

Darcy hired a coach who was in over his head, without conducting a thorough coaching search. he was content to ice an nhl roster composed of young prospects and AHLers. He activated and burned off a year of Grigorenko's ELC and generally mishandled that prospect. It was clear that aside from selling players and acquiring assets, DR had no plan or direction.

Enter Tim Murray who took Darcy's assets and turned them into something that has potential. GMTM is at least building a roster and moving in a defined direction and he has a plan. I think this is the point that is lost on a lot of hockey fans and sabres fans. We may think GMTM is giving away too much in trades and losing quality prospects. I think GMTM is not afraid to take a risk and acquire the players he wants (who all happen to be under the age of 25 in regards to core players). There is still a decent stock of prospects.

Tim Murray is taking a risk and it might fail and he'll deserve to be fired if it does. I think he'll succeed and i don't think the sabres are in as bad a situation as this thread seems to suggest.

Edit - Don't bother pointing out that Tim Murray also iced an AHL roster on NHL ice, last year. I know that. Difference is, at least Tim Murray continued to add pieces and not just bring up the prospects from the ahl and stunting player development more than was necessary.

 

[Ice Crusher]

How clever and typical from HFBoards. 2 months ago, Zadorov was the untouchable piece that will never leave Buffalo which would clearly become the top-2D that will be right next to the top-1D in Risto.

Now, he's some D that seems to lack hockey IQ and speed that has not proven yet that he belongs as a top 4D in the league

Just a little advice Sabres fan, I know all you that has been posting in the Zadorov trade rumors. So try be a little less hypocrite about the matter.

 

[HP00]

How clever and typical from HFBoards. 2 months ago, Zadorov was the untouchable piece that will never leave Buffalo which would clearly become the top-2D that will be right next to the top-1D in Risto.

Now, he's some D that seems to lack hockey IQ and speed that has not proven yet that he belongs as a top 4D in the league

Just a little advice Sabres fan, I know all you that has been posting in the Zadorov trade rumors. So try be a little less hypocrite about the matter.

Nice generalizing you are doing, you want me to lump you in with the hard headed Avalanche fans too?

 

[Ice Crusher]

Nice generalizing you are doing, you want me to lump you in with the hard headed Avalanche fans too?

I'm only reffering to the people that knows who they are: which 2 months ago were saying Zadorov was the untouchable beast and now he has a lot of question marks. If you didn't, then you shouldn't be affected by this...

 

[Lemonlimey]

I'm only reffering to the people that knows who they are: which 2 months ago were saying Zadorov was the untouchable beast and now he has a lot of question marks. If you didn't, then you shouldn't be affected by this...

this really is incredibly prevalent. be happy both teams improved buffalo! you're my second favorite team now <3

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

I'm impartial about their moves to be honest. However if that is who they want to be their core, i just wonder how they plan on filling out that D core and at the expense of what assets.

 

[Jeremy2020]

I'm only reffering to the people that knows who they are: which 2 months ago were saying Zadorov was the untouchable beast and now he has a lot of question marks. If you didn't, then you shouldn't be affected by this...

A lot of these "Sabres Fans" you reference don't post very often on the Sabres forums and/or when they do they're laughing stock of the board.

 

[chet1926]

It's going to be fun. Murray planned the 2 year rebuild and it went too perfect.

I think there is anger that it worked.

Lol. I wouldn't say it "worked", the Sabres still have a bottom 10 roster in the league.

If you're expecting ROR to be the 1st line heavy lifter be prepared to be disappointed, both times ROR was given that opportunity in Colorado we failed to make the playoffs and finished with the 2nd overall pick and 10th overall pick respectively. The two times I'm referring to are in RORs 3rd season, Duchene got hurt so he was given 1st line duty, and last year when Roy figured out that ROR can't produce on his own so he gave him our best wingers Landeskog and MacKinnon and then Tanguay when MacK got hurt. And then gave Duchene who can produce on his own Iginla, and a rotating door of crap players including McCleod, Caron etc.

Eichel is a kid, if you're expecting a 70+ pts year from him next year you will be disappointed. NHL teams will figure him out, just like they do every other player in the league. He'll have a nice rookie year but I don't expect him to come in and be a top 15 player in the league, and for your reference I don't expect McDavid to be there this year either. 2-3 years from now totally different story.

The defense that used to be scary, is not so much anymore with the losses of Myers and Zadorov. Buffalo's D is easily bottom 10 in the league right now. They are too young, they'll get better but next year will be a struggle especially if you're relying on Risto to be your top pairing guy. Most guys his age are learning the game as a 2nd/3rd pairing guy, asking him to be a top pairing guy is a ton especially since he doesn't have a workhorse #1 carrying him like Weber or Suter etc.

We are also talking about a team where the leading scorer from last year scored all of 46 pts. You added some nice pieces but, I don't think they'll magically transform the team into a credible offense force. ROR is a 50-60 pts guy, Kane is a 30 goal guy IF he is healthy and actually cares to put forth any effort, Eichel will probably end somewhere between 50-65 pts

Then you come to goalie and to be quite frank, I think you all made a terrible mistake trading a 1st for Lehner. Minimal experience, OK numbers. I think he'll be a big let down for you all. I wouldn't have given up more than a 2nd or 3rd for him. Much like the Talbot return from Edmonton.

Overall, I think Murray upgraded the team, but to say he pulled off a two year rebuild is pretty ridiculous. I fully expect Buffalo to be picking top 7 again next season. If everything goes perfect for Buffalo they may be picking in the 11-15 range. I don't think playoffs is reachable, unless everything goes perfect for them and some other teams don't play to their capabilities or have major injury issues.

 

[Sickbones]

You're right, because generational prospects shouldn't be given the chance to succeed. They should be put on worse lines with less ice time.

He's a generational player. Is an 18 year old McDavid getting the #1 center next year? You bet he is. Did Crosby and Ovechkin get 1st line minutes when they were drafted? Yup. Kane? Hall? RNH? Landeskog?

I don't think they'll start him on the #1 line.. at least not to start off the season. Who knows, haha.

 

[MayDay]

I'm impartial about their moves to be honest. However if that is who they want to be their core, i just wonder how they plan on filling out that D core and at the expense of what assets.

I think this is overblown

Risto - XXX
Pysyk - Bogosian
Gorges - Weber/McCabe

extra: Colaiacovo, Ruhwedel, Donovan, Sanguinetti

Basically they need one top 4 defenseman. Maybe they try to trade for one, or maybe they wait until the draft next year. Maybe McCabe develops into that guy. The Sabres just drafted 4 defensemen last month - maybe one of them turns out to be a gem.

In any case, I'm not too worried about the future of the defense. They basically need to add just one guy at some point in the next few years, whether that guy comes from a trade or prospect development they'll get him somehow.

 

[ChrisWinsor]

I don't even know where to begin. I stopped reading when you said an 18 year old Eichel should be the #1 center to start next year.

It didn't get much better after that

 

[Kcoyote3]

It didn't get much better after that

Then either the hype surrounding Eichel has been overblown or the precedent set by players of his caliber that have played 1st line minutes and succeeded is apparently too ludicrous to remember.

 

[Royal Thunder]

Then either the hype surrounding Eichel has been overblown or the precedent set by players of his caliber that have played 1st line minutes and succeeded is apparently too ludicrous to remember.

The Oilers brass has said RNH will be used to shelter McDavid to start out too. Does that mean McDavid sucks? No, it's just what happens in the NHL.

 

[Dogewow]

Then either the hype surrounding Eichel has been overblown or the precedent set by players of his caliber that have played 1st line minutes and succeeded is apparently too ludicrous to remember.

I'm of the opinion that no matter how good a player is, they don't start off their NHL career getting something like that handed to them. You should have to earn ice time based on play and work for it, not have it handed to you. Eichel probably could step into a topline role and so could McDavid, for example. But I'd think it would be a mistake to send either player or the team the message "You guys are above this and we're gonna give you the top spot on the team". Even if it only takes ten games, just put them through the paces and then give them the spot.

 

[Eram]

Overall, I think Murray upgraded the team, but to say he pulled off a two year rebuild is pretty ridiculous. I fully expect Buffalo to be picking top 7 again next season. If everything goes perfect for Buffalo they may be picking in the 11-15 range. I don't think playoffs is reachable, unless everything goes perfect for them and some other teams don't play to their capabilities or have major injury issues.

I think most Sabres fans are in this boat. Not bottom 5 bad, but not a playoff team. Ideally we could grab someone equivalent to Provorov or Werenski in the 7-13 range next year.

Also, I understand what the OP is getting at, but what's overlooked is that Buffalo CAN be a bit silly with overpaying to get ROR/Kane. In a 4 year span, 2012-2015, the Sabres have possessed a total of 18 first or second round picks. That's 9 years worth of drafting in 4. Some of the picks/players have since been traded, but the big selloff almost required some bodies to be moved out simply for roster space. That's a crazy number. The next comparables are CHI in 04-07 had 14, DAL in 02-05 had 14, EDM 01-04 had 14, and WAS 04-07 had 15. No other team since 2000 has had more.

So yes, there was some overpayment, but lets not act like trading away some of those picks to have "only" 12 first and seconds over four years, including Eichel.

 

[Boxscore]

Ristolainen will be a beaut.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Lol. I wouldn't say it "worked", the Sabres still have a bottom 10 roster in the league.

If you're expecting ROR to be the 1st line heavy lifter be prepared to be disappointed, both times ROR was given that opportunity in Colorado we failed to make the playoffs and finished with the 2nd overall pick and 10th overall pick respectively. The two times I'm referring to are in RORs 3rd season, Duchene got hurt so he was given 1st line duty, and last year when Roy figured out that ROR can't produce on his own so he gave him our best wingers Landeskog and MacKinnon and then Tanguay when MacK got hurt. And then gave Duchene who can produce on his own Iginla, and a rotating door of crap players including McCleod, Caron etc.

Eichel is a kid, if you're expecting a 70+ pts year from him next year you will be disappointed. NHL teams will figure him out, just like they do every other player in the league. He'll have a nice rookie year but I don't expect him to come in and be a top 15 player in the league, and for your reference I don't expect McDavid to be there this year either. 2-3 years from now totally different story.

The defense that used to be scary, is not so much anymore with the losses of Myers and Zadorov. Buffalo's D is easily bottom 10 in the league right now. They are too young, they'll get better but next year will be a struggle especially if you're relying on Risto to be your top pairing guy. Most guys his age are learning the game as a 2nd/3rd pairing guy, asking him to be a top pairing guy is a ton especially since he doesn't have a workhorse #1 carrying him like Weber or Suter etc.

We are also talking about a team where the leading scorer from last year scored all of 46 pts. You added some nice pieces but, I don't think they'll magically transform the team into a credible offense force. ROR is a 50-60 pts guy, Kane is a 30 goal guy IF he is healthy and actually cares to put forth any effort, Eichel will probably end somewhere between 50-65 pts

Then you come to goalie and to be quite frank, I think you all made a terrible mistake trading a 1st for Lehner. Minimal experience, OK numbers. I think he'll be a big let down for you all. I wouldn't have given up more than a 2nd or 3rd for him. Much like the Talbot return from Edmonton.

Overall, I think Murray upgraded the team, but to say he pulled off a two year rebuild is pretty ridiculous. I fully expect Buffalo to be picking top 7 again next season. If everything goes perfect for Buffalo they may be picking in the 11-15 range. I don't think playoffs is reachable, unless everything goes perfect for them and some other teams don't play to their capabilities or have major injury issues.

The Sabres didn't rebuild to win in 2015.

As of today the plan worked. Now how do we turn these pieces into a winner is the next step.

To me at least I got what I wanted out of the 2 year "tank". This is exactly how we were told it would go and it was almost flawless.