Nikita Zadorov: The Almost Dynasty and The Future Travesty Part 1; The Squabble

[MayDay]

The Sabres didn't rebuild to win in 2015.

As of today the plan worked. Now how do we turn these pieces into a winner is the next step.

To me at least I got what I wanted out of the 2 year "tank". This is exactly how we were told it would go and it was almost flawless.

First of all, it's isn't a 2 year rebuild.

The Sabres' current rebuild started when we started selling off the old core for high picks and prospects, and the first one of those moves was trading Paul Gaustad to Nashville for a 1st rounder in February 2012. That pick we got in return was traded up to a higher 1st, with which we selected Zemgus Girgensons, the first major piece of the new core.

So by my reckoning, the rebuild started in Feb. 2012 when we traded Gaustad (old core) for a pick that turned into Girgensons (new core). We are about 3.5 years into the rebuild at this point.

 

[7 11 14]

On HFBoards, young potential talent always trumps young established talent.

ALWAYS

 

[Zman5778]

I'm only reffering to the people that knows who they are: which 2 months ago were saying Zadorov was the untouchable beast and now he has a lot of question marks. If you didn't, then you shouldn't be affected by this...

Go back and read that thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1896795

I'd say half of the "no" votes were actually "No, I don't want to trade Zadorov for an unextended ROR" and half were "No, period" (and I think half of the "no, period" people were also thinking "ROR isn't re-signing here, he wants to test UFA).

Only a handful did a drastic turnaround like you say....and sadly, they're vocal about it

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

I don't know how I missed this thread for so long. But it is an interesting thread, due to differing philosophy's of team building that interests me. I think it's a wait and see thing right now to see if Buffalo made the right decisions but it's really interesting none the less.

 

[Sabre Dance]

First of all, it's isn't a 2 year rebuild.

The Sabres' current rebuild started when we started selling off the old core for high picks and prospects, and the first one of those moves was trading Paul Gaustad to Nashville for a 1st rounder in February 2012. That pick we got in return was traded up to a higher 1st, with which we selected Zemgus Girgensons, the first major piece of the new core.

So by my reckoning, the rebuild started in Feb. 2012 when we traded Gaustad (old core) for a pick that turned into Girgensons (new core). We are about 3.5 years into the rebuild at this point.

Getting a 1st for Gaustad was a great Regier trade, but I wasnt thinking tank after that trade. Regier can say all he wants that it started then. It started when it was decided Vanek, Pominville, and Miller would not re-sign. Tank started in April 2013 when they traded Pominville and Regehr.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Go back and read that thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1896795

I'd say half of the "no" votes were actually "No, I don't want to trade Zadorov for an unextended ROR" and half were "No, period" (and I think half of the "no, period" people were also thinking "ROR isn't re-signing here, he wants to test UFA).

Only a handful did a drastic turnaround like you say....and sadly, they're vocal about it

Trading Zadorov hurts the Sabrres chances of developing a #1 defenseman. I have confidence in Risto, but its all on his shoulders now. Tough spot for him.

Its why I didnt want Myers traded also. If Murray could have kept 1 of Myers or Zads I would say the tank was flawless.

 

[rsg87]

Lol. I wouldn't say it "worked", the Sabres still have a bottom 10 roster in the league.

If you're expecting ROR to be the 1st line heavy lifter be prepared to be disappointed, both times ROR was given that opportunity in Colorado we failed to make the playoffs and finished with the 2nd overall pick and 10th overall pick respectively. The two times I'm referring to are in RORs 3rd season, Duchene got hurt so he was given 1st line duty, and last year when Roy figured out that ROR can't produce on his own so he gave him our best wingers Landeskog and MacKinnon and then Tanguay when MacK got hurt. And then gave Duchene who can produce on his own Iginla, and a rotating door of crap players including McCleod, Caron etc.

Eichel is a kid, if you're expecting a 70+ pts year from him next year you will be disappointed. NHL teams will figure him out, just like they do every other player in the league. He'll have a nice rookie year but I don't expect him to come in and be a top 15 player in the league, and for your reference I don't expect McDavid to be there this year either. 2-3 years from now totally different story.

The defense that used to be scary, is not so much anymore with the losses of Myers and Zadorov. Buffalo's D is easily bottom 10 in the league right now. They are too young, they'll get better but next year will be a struggle especially if you're relying on Risto to be your top pairing guy. Most guys his age are learning the game as a 2nd/3rd pairing guy, asking him to be a top pairing guy is a ton especially since he doesn't have a workhorse #1 carrying him like Weber or Suter etc.

We are also talking about a team where the leading scorer from last year scored all of 46 pts. You added some nice pieces but, I don't think they'll magically transform the team into a credible offense force. ROR is a 50-60 pts guy, Kane is a 30 goal guy IF he is healthy and actually cares to put forth any effort, Eichel will probably end somewhere between 50-65 pts

Then you come to goalie and to be quite frank, I think you all made a terrible mistake trading a 1st for Lehner. Minimal experience, OK numbers. I think he'll be a big let down for you all. I wouldn't have given up more than a 2nd or 3rd for him. Much like the Talbot return from Edmonton.

Overall, I think Murray upgraded the team, but to say he pulled off a two year rebuild is pretty ridiculous. I fully expect Buffalo to be picking top 7 again next season. If everything goes perfect for Buffalo they may be picking in the 11-15 range. I don't think playoffs is reachable, unless everything goes perfect for them and some other teams don't play to their capabilities or have major injury issues.

Some of your arguments appear to contradict each other. On one hand, you argue Risto should be learning the game as a 2nd/3rd pairing guy but criticize us for trading for ROR in order to shelter a younger Eichel. Second, you make the point that our defense is too young while at the same time criticizing us for trading Zadorov who would make our defense even younger.

Overall, I hate that we had to trade Zadorov but I understand it. We wanted a guy that could take the pressure off Eichel who is likely the face and future of the franchise. ROR will take the defensive zone face offs and give us a chance to have Eichel start in the offensive zone more. I think Zadorov will develop into a great #2 defenseman in the mold of Seabrook. He's a little immature but who isn't at his age and while has some red flags, I think he will be great.

 

[Dogewow]

People are so set on Zadorov being this #1 dman and make comparisons to great NHL defenseman of the past. Does he have potential? I don't think anyone is denying that, but I think people should temper their expectations and not be surprised if the kid is on the second paring next year or two. Or even possibly a career top 4.

Apparently any defenseman who is over 6'3 and knows how to skate halfway decent is the second coming of Chris Pronger.

 

[chet1926]

Some of your arguments appear to contradict each other. On one hand, you argue Risto should be learning the game as a 2nd/3rd pairing guy but criticize us for trading for ROR in order to shelter a younger Eichel. Second, you make the point that our defense is too young while at the same time criticizing us for trading Zadorov who would make our defense even younger.

Overall, I hate that we had to trade Zadorov but I understand it. We wanted a guy that could take the pressure off Eichel who is likely the face and future of the franchise. ROR will take the defensive zone face offs and give us a chance to have Eichel start in the offensive zone more. I think Zadorov will develop into a great #2 defenseman in the mold of Seabrook. He's a little immature but who isn't at his age and while has some red flags, I think he will be great.

It's not contradictory. I like the move to get ROR, as he will take pressure off Eichel on the defensive side of things by taking harder matchups. But I see many Sabres fans thinking he is this stud 1st line center, capable of doing all this heavy lifting both offense and defense. Which is just not the case. Ideally he is a 2C capable of 50-60pts. In 2 years ROR will be a nice fit behind Eichel. But this year could be interesting as ROR is not the "guy" on offense.

Also I didn't like them giving up Zadorov or Myers. They should have just stayed the course on defense or at maximum traded only 1 probably Zadorov as Myers had the experience, they gave up way too much of a very solid promising defense. Yes they would have struggled through some growing pains but they could have had one of the best defenses in the league in a few years.

 

[threeVo]

Have ROR to shelter Eichel and Samson is exponentially more important for this team than having Zadorov to take some "pressure" of Ristos shoulders. Zadorov is a complementary piece to a puzzle, ROR and Risto are the major peices that puzzle rests on

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

When will people move on about Myers? Bogosian is a much better fit then he was here and is a better DEFENSEman. It's refreshing having a dman who uses his body and is physical and a rock defensively. Myers almost every single time on the ice had about half a foot and 20+ pounds bigger then every single player on the ice yet played like he was 5'8 instead of 6'8. He was soft as butter. He was a #2/3 at best. And no, don't try and say I am saying this only because he isn't a Sabre anymore. I've been praying for a Myers trade and extremely vocal about my disdain for him years before he was actually traded. Myers peaked as a rookie. He will never be as good as he was his first year and hasn't even been close to it. Ristolainen is better then Myers at every single aspect and Bogo brings the physicality and snarl that Risto and Myers don't bring.

Risto+Bogo>>>Myers+Risto.


The Sabres need a #2 LHD and that's it. Once that is filled and Eichel and Reinhart become established then they are ready to be contenders. They will be cup contenders by 2018 if not sooner. Guaranteed playoffs by 16-17. Division title the year after.

 

[chet1926]

When will people move on about Myers? Bogosian is a much better fit then he was here and is a better DEFENSEman. It's refreshing having a dman who uses his body and is physical and a rock defensively. Myers almost every single time on the ice had about half a foot and 20+ pounds bigger then every single player on the ice yet played like he was 5'8 instead of 6'8. He was soft as butter. He was a #2/3 at best. And no, don't try and say I am saying this only because he isn't a Sabre anymore. I've been praying for a Myers trade and extremely vocal about my disdain for him years before he was actually traded. Myers peaked as a rookie. He will never be as good as he was his first year and hasn't even been close to it. Ristolainen is better then Myers at every single aspect and Bogo brings the physicality and snarl that Risto and Myers don't bring.

Risto+Bogo>>>Myers+Risto.


The Sabres need a #2 LHD and that's it. Once that is filled and Eichel and Reinhart become established then they are ready to be contenders. They will be cup contenders by 2018 if not sooner. Guaranteed playoffs by 16-17. Division title the year after.

You realize these don't just grow on trees right? You pretty much have to draft them, as they rarely get traded or make it to free agency. The Avs have been looking for a top pairing left D for like 6+ seasons.

 

[TalkingProuder]

You realize these don't just grow on trees right? You pretty much have to draft them, as they rarely get traded or make it to free agency. The Avs have been looking for a top pairing left D for like 6+ seasons.

Apparently the Sabres drafted two top pairing potential D within the last 2 years. Wasn't that hard for us...

 

[Kcoyote3]

I don't know how I missed this thread for so long. But it is an interesting thread, due to differing philosophy's of team building that interests me. I think it's a wait and see thing right now to see if Buffalo made the right decisions but it's really interesting none the less.

Glad you like it. I'll do another one around the progress of all relevant pieces next offseason.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

Go back and read that thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1896795

I'd say half of the "no" votes were actually "No, I don't want to trade Zadorov for an unextended ROR" and half were "No, period" (and I think half of the "no, period" people were also thinking "ROR isn't re-signing here, he wants to test UFA).

Only a handful did a drastic turnaround like you say....and sadly, they're vocal about it

Interesting. I voted "Not Willing" in that poll and now I am perfectly comfortable with the trade. Not because i think Zadarov will be a bust, but because we managed to re-sign ROR.

We will be hurting on defense a little bit next year, but it's not like we have no back end talent. Pysyk will be serviceable, McCabe will be ready soon, Risto is already a stud and Bogo is criminally underrated. I am not worried about our defense. we have another year to shore that up.

 

[chet1926]

Apparently the Sabres drafted two top pairing potential D within the last 2 years. Wasn't that hard for us...

It's easier when you have two high end 1st round picks, but even those aren't a guarantee that they'll pan out. They can just as easily bust.

 

[TalkingProuder]

It's easier when you have two high end 1st round picks, but even those aren't a guarantee that they'll pan out. They can just as easily bust.

And yet that potential bust we just traded for ROR, a proven commodity, and got this thread saying we are not paying attention to our defense.

Not that I think that Zadorov is a bust but there seems to be a lot of contradictions here. Also, Zadorov was not a high end pick, he was a middle 1st rounder. He has nice talent and could have went higher but players like him will be available again.


In any case, I am confident that Tim Murray will find a defenseman with a likely top ten pick this year as well as other avenues we can explore such as trade or FA.

 

[Lemonlimey]

It is as I feared. Avs and Sabres fans have been baited into a pissing contest over the trade. Both teams improved in a rare win/win.

 

[threeVo]

2016 1st rounder = top 4 Dman

 

[tripleX]

It is as I feared. Avs and Sabres fans have been baited into a pissing contest over the trade. Both teams improved in a rare win/win.

It's actually pretty funny. Except few hard-headed fans from both sides, most Avs and Sabres fans are happy with this trade and get along well. But there are fans from other teams keep trying to bait them into a pissing match. It's almost like others want Avs and Sabres fans to fight but fail every time.

 

[buffalocupcrazy*]

I actually agree with you here. They have not excercised great asset management in the least. Hell, they probably should have just kept Michal Neuvirth instead of trading him to the Islanders for Chad Johnson and a 3rd round pick. He had a .918 save percentage in 27 games. I would be surprised if Lehner plays as well. Then they wouldn't have had to trade a 1st round pick for Lehner. Murray was worried he was playing TOO WELL and was putting his tank plans at risk

you're damn right he was. what if he kept it up and cost buffalo eichel? the last three years would've been literally pointless

also, his save percentage is not that impressive when you consider the number of shots he faced on a daily night due to the ineptitude of the defense in front of him. a lot of goalies would have high save %

 

[Dogewow]

It's actually pretty funny. Except few hard-headed fans from both sides, most Avs and Sabres fans are happy with this trade and get along well. But there are fans from other teams keep trying to bait them into a pissing match. It's almost like others want Avs and Sabres fans to fight but fail every time.

It is because at least one person out there has to have the mindset that one team has to loose a trade, which is really obnoxious if you ask me. Not every trade has to have a loser, yet this mindset runs rampant here on HF.

For example with the Evander Kane trade, I would say both teams got good pieces and what they needed out of the trade. Pretty even in my eyes unless someone involved in the trade gets injured or has a random drop off in play. Yet there's people out there that insist that the Sabres got hosed and it makes me laugh.

 

[TOML]

It was done because the Avs could really use a player like Zadorov.

 

[BFLO]

I didn't read all the 21 pages. Did anyone mention Zadorov eloped this summer at the ripe age of 20?

I was all aboard the Zadorov train, ignoring the warning signs that he might be an immature headcase, what with his team suspensions and all. Then it was announced he had eloped and I hopped off the train. I knew the kid was trouble 100% after that.

 

[wunderpanda]

I didn't read all the 21 pages. Did anyone mention Zadorov eloped this summer at the ripe age of 20?

I was all aboard the Zadorov train, ignoring the warning signs that he might be an immature headcase, what with his team suspensions and all. Then it was announced he had eloped and I hopped off the train. I knew the kid was trouble 100% after that.

I don't follow your thinking here. Why is eloping a sign of trouble? Just curious