Nikita Zadorov: The Almost Dynasty and The Future Travesty Part 1; The Squabble

[Moskau]

Agreed. I think the only tangible difference between Myers and Bogosian is that Myers can actually stay healthy for a season, whereas Bogosian can't.

Wait what?

Myers and Bogosian have missed nearly identical games to injury.

 

[TheStranger]

Won't ROR just be a 1st or 2nd line winger if everything works out as planned though (Eichel and Reinhart as the 1/2 centers)?

They better be careful with that. If O'Reilly isn't the #1 man in the house he gets a little pissy. He is afterall "the best all-round center in the last 25 years" as per his agent.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Wait what?

Myers and Bogosian have missed nearly identical games to injury.

I hadn't realized how many games Myers has missed recently. He started off pretty durable. Still, he's at least a bit better than Bogosian in that regard.

 

[Beerz]

Agree 100% with the OP.


Its hilarious reading how quickly so many sabres fans defend and even applaud the trades Murray has made.


Before the Evander Kane trade the Sabres fans common theme was "Myers is untouchable and if he's moved it'll take a mountain of assets, he's a big Top pairing Dman who's showing signs of being a #1" Now that he's not longer a Sabre(And coincidentally enough actually looking much better in Winnipeg), Sabres fans are singing the same song again "Myers was always nothing more than a good #3 for us and that's all he'll ever be, thank god we swapped him our for a Top 2 guy in Bogosian". Myers is significantly better than Bogosian, both now and in the future.


And the same thing applies for ROR and Zadorov. Before that trade half of the Sabres fan base wanted nothing to do with ROR and his overrated, soon to be overpaid ways and Zadorov was a big, monster Dman with #2 potential written all over him. Fast forward 2 weeks later, and ROR is an Elite 2 way center(Which is true admittedly) on a fantastic contract and will be a core pice for years. While Zadorov is a big question mark where a lot of things have to go right before he even comes close to reaching his potential.

Its hilarious. Buffalo would have been much better off making none of those trades(Instead moving the likes of Grigorenko, Lemieux, Armia out in smaller prospect swap trades instead). Drafting Eichel at #2, Colin White at #21, and Jeremy Roy at #24. Still having Myers, Zadorov, on the back end and build a core around:

Ennis, Eichel, Reinheart, Girgensons up front and Zadorov, Myers, Ristoalinen on Defense. A Forward core that already has 4/6 very good young future Top 6 forwards, and a D core that in 3 years is likely made up of 3 very good #2's at least, with Risto likely being a #1 himself. The most important part, is they would have had a tonne of good complimentary pieces in Roy, White, #31 Pick, Grigorenko/Lemieux/Armia swaps, Compher etc. to build around that core. Now, they've got a similarly skilled core as before, a little more proven but by no means is it better in 2-3 years. But they now lack the complimentary pieces like Compher, like a Jeremy Roy, like a Grigorenko, etc. that they would have had before these trades.

Couldn't disagree with this post any more.

Before the Evander Kane trade the Sabres fans common theme was "Myers is untouchable and if he's moved it'll take a mountain of assets, he's a big Top pairing Dman who's showing signs of being a #1" Now that he's not longer a Sabre(And coincidentally enough actually looking much better in Winnipeg), Sabres fans are singing the same song again "Myers was always nothing more than a good #3 for us and that's all he'll ever be, thank god we swapped him our for a Top 2 guy in Bogosian". Myers is significantly better than Bogosian, both now and in the future.

Can't have different views with changed circumstances? ... First off... vast majority of fans didn't want to trade Myers because he was seen as an insulator for the young guys (Risto, Zadorov, McCabe, Pysyk) .. Nobody was expecting a Myers deal in which we brought back a Dman who is equally capable and better in some regards in accomplishing that same task. I'm sure most ..like myself were expecting (if he was traded at all) a deal more centered around picks and prospects.

I really haven't seen any Sabre fan dog Myers.. I'm sure their may have been one or two but I haven't personally seen any. I always felt Myers was a solid #2 ... and still do. I just happen to like what Bogosian brings to this team a lot better than what Myers did. He'll most likely not put up the points Myers will but I am more than fine with that..he does so many other things that Myers just isn't capable of.

And the same thing applies for ROR and Zadorov. Before that trade half of the Sabres fan base wanted nothing to do with ROR and his overrated, soon to be overpaid ways and Zadorov was a big, monster Dman with #2 potential written all over him. Fast forward 2 weeks later, and ROR is an Elite 2 way center(Which is true admittedly) on a fantastic contract and will be a core pice for years. While Zadorov is a big question mark where a lot of things have to go right before he even comes close to reaching his potential.

I was totally against giving up Zadorov for ROR. Had nothing to do with ROR tho. Had to do with my uncertainty of ROR contract status. Zadorov still is a big monster dman with top pairing potential...but yeah.. he does have a lot of question marks. I'm not nervous about them tho' .. I think he's a shoe in for a top 4 Dman. If you don't believe Sabre fans weren't questioning Zadorov before the ROR trade .. go look at some threads... there was. I know. Because I was arguing against them.

Its hilarious. Buffalo would have been much better off making none of those trades(Instead moving the likes of Grigorenko, Lemieux, Armia out in smaller prospect swap trades instead). Drafting Eichel at #2, Colin White at #21, and Jeremy Roy at #24. Still having Myers, Zadorov, on the back end and build a core around:

Absolutely not. I'd rather have Bogosian, Risto and Zadorov for one. It sucks having to give up Zads...but what done is done. ROR signed an extension..I'm happy with that.

Ennis, Eichel, Reinheart, Girgensons up front and Zadorov, Myers, Ristoalinen on Defense. A Forward core that already has 4/6 very good young future Top 6 forwards, and a D core that in 3 years is likely made up of 3 very good #2's at least, with Risto likely being a #1 himself. The most important part, is they would have had a tonne of good complimentary pieces in Roy, White, #31 Pick, Grigorenko/Lemieux/Armia swaps, Compher etc. to build around that core. Now, they've got a similarly skilled core as before, a little more proven but by no means is it better in 2-3 years. But they now lack the complimentary pieces like Compher, like a Jeremy Roy, like a Grigorenko, etc. that they would have had before these trades.

We still have a ton of good depth prospects.

Compher doesn't hurt. I liked him as a prospect.

Grigprenko doesn't hurt. I liked him as a prospect.

Armia doesn't hurt. I was "meh" on him all along.

Lemieux hurt. I though what he brought to the table was a rare piece. An a-hole who has the ability to score.


We still have..

Hudson Fasching
Nick Baptiste
Justin Bailey
Johan Larsson
Jake McCabe
Anthony Florentino
Connor Hurley
Gustav Possler



Edit:

What I find hilarious is that people think that Sabre fans would be being homers about these moves after sitting thru 2 years of hell watching the tear down. If we didn't like the moves.. it would be voiced. No amount of homerism is going to stop that.

Some didn't like the Myers trade... they spoke up.

Some didn't like the ROR trade...they spoke up.

Some didn't like the Lehner trade... ALOT spoke up...including me.

 

[sjci]

With how Edmonton got lucky with winning 97 and now everyone thinks they'll be alright, what if Buffalo this year improves a decent amount, still bottom 10, but wins one of the 3 lotto spots and grabs Chychrun/Matthews/JP? But in this scenario will say its Chychrun since D is the main area of concern for your argument. The Sabres lineup (2 yrs from now) with him in it would then maybe be

ROR - Eichel - Ennis
Moulson - Reinhart -Fasching
Larsson - Girgensons - Gionta/Baptiste
Foligno - COR - Baptists/Gionta

Chychrun - Ristolainen
Pysyk - Bogosian
McCabe - UFA (Wiercioch, Krug, Ekholm, anybody, etc)
Weber

Lehner

Anything can happen, players can grow, some late draft pick flourishes, a surprise trade happens, you win the lottery, etc. Is the d-corps great right now, no. Could it have been better with Myers/Zadorov, maybe, but at the very least, can we at least wait and see ROR and Kane play 1 game for the Sabres before we say how terrible things are.

 

[Lemonlimey]

But seriously, there has been an astounding 180 on Zadorov. I could go find the poll from just a few weeks ago where Sabres fans voted by a large majority not to trade him for O'Reilly straight up. Now he is a lazy Russian headcase.

Avs fans have been mostly complimentary about ROR! Lets all lighten up, its a win/win.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Avs fans are perfect and complimentary and Sabres fans are dirty dirty homers. K.

 

[Beerz]

But seriously, there has been an astounding 180 on Zadorov. I could go find the poll from just a few weeks ago where Sabres fans voted by a large majority not to trade him for O'Reilly straight up. Now he is a lazy Russian headcase.

Avs fans have been mostly complimentary about ROR! Lets all lighten up, its a win/win.

Because ROR was a pending UFA !! Who the hell wants to trade a prospect with Zadorovs potential for a pending UFA who you aren't sure if he wants to go to UFA... Timm Murray put his balls on the table and got it done. Good for him. He'll get burned one day I'm sure tho.

The lazy Russian headcase theme was on the Sabre boars long before ROR came into the fold.

 

[Lemonlimey]

The re-signing issue I feel has been overblown the last week. I know its easy to say that in hindsight, especially with Ryan's agent proving one tough customer over the years. But Murray is a great GM so far imo...he was always going to get him signed, even if it meant biting some kind of bullet (which turned out to be the weird structure)

 

[Kcoyote3]

Agree 100% with the OP.


Its hilarious reading how quickly so many sabres fans defend and even applaud the trades Murray has made.


Before the Evander Kane trade the Sabres fans common theme was "Myers is untouchable and if he's moved it'll take a mountain of assets, he's a big Top pairing Dman who's showing signs of being a #1" Now that he's not longer a Sabre(And coincidentally enough actually looking much better in Winnipeg), Sabres fans are singing the same song again "Myers was always nothing more than a good #3 for us and that's all he'll ever be, thank god we swapped him our for a Top 2 guy in Bogosian". Myers is significantly better than Bogosian, both now and in the future.


And the same thing applies for ROR and Zadorov. Before that trade half of the Sabres fan base wanted nothing to do with ROR and his overrated, soon to be overpaid ways and Zadorov was a big, monster Dman with #2 potential written all over him. Fast forward 2 weeks later, and ROR is an Elite 2 way center(Which is true admittedly) on a fantastic contract and will be a core pice for years. While Zadorov is a big question mark where a lot of things have to go right before he even comes close to reaching his potential.

Its hilarious. Buffalo would have been much better off making none of those trades(Instead moving the likes of Grigorenko, Lemieux, Armia out in smaller prospect swap trades instead). Drafting Eichel at #2, Colin White at #21, and Jeremy Roy at #24. Still having Myers, Zadorov, on the back end and build a core around:

Ennis, Eichel, Reinheart, Girgensons up front and Zadorov, Myers, Ristoalinen on Defense. A Forward core that already has 4/6 very good young future Top 6 forwards, and a D core that in 3 years is likely made up of 3 very good #2's at least, with Risto likely being a #1 himself. The most important part, is they would have had a tonne of good complimentary pieces in Roy, White, #31 Pick, Grigorenko/Lemieux/Armia swaps, Compher etc. to build around that core. Now, they've got a similarly skilled core as before, a little more proven but by no means is it better in 2-3 years. But they now lack the complimentary pieces like Compher, like a Jeremy Roy, like a Grigorenko, etc. that they would have had before these trades.

Good to know I'm not the only one who shares this opinion. Defense first. Trade offensive prospects for offensive proven players. Keep your defense at a high potential throughout the process. Make damn sure you don't end up like Edmonton or Toronto and more like the Kings or Chicago.

 

[TalkingProuder]

The re-signing issue I feel has been overblown the last week. I know its easy to say that in hindsight, especially with Ryan's agent proving one tough customer over the years. But Murray is a great GM so far imo...he was always going to get him signed, even if it meant biting some kind of bullet (which turned out to be the weird structure)

Well Tim Murray obviously knew he could get it done. Sabres fans on a message board had no such information so we didn't want to give up Zadorov for a pending UFA. Most said they would do the deal, even with Zadorov, if we had a deal in place before the trade.

Listen, I hate losing Zadorov. He was one of my favorite prospects and he is going to be a beast sooner than later. But look at the Winnipeg-Buffalo trade. Both fanbases are happy. Hopefully the Colorado-Buffalo will help both teams as well.

 

[EichHart]

UFA ROR is not worth a lot. However, A signed ROR is worth a ****load.

 

[Lemonlimey]

UFA ROR is not worth a lot. However, A signed ROR is worth a ****load.

Agreed. Murray traded assets closer to locked-up ROR value than a pending UFA one though, which to me was always the tell a re-signing was guaranteed.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

How has he added nothing? He's the defenseman who plays the most minutes and scores the most for us. I don't understand. He's not 38, he's recently 30. Even after Thornton and Marleau are gone, Burns could still be around unless he is traded. Probably still producing 45+ and leading the team in ice time.

I said "added nothing to the bottom line," not "added nothing." Obviously Brent Burns brings offense from the backend and the ability to log minutes. His overall game, however, just doesn't correlate to winning hockey games.

Also if we traded Burns today, 4 years after the trade, we could get a better return than Coyle. So that should be pretty clear evidence on how good the trade was.

Targeting Brent Burns as the player to put your contending team over the top after repeatedly allowing PPG+ series to other team's #1 scoring options is still not something you want to do.

Ignoring what Doug Wilson did with the 2nd and the busted Phillips since both are irrelevant to the initial trade value, how did Burns + an early 2nd for Setoguchi + Coyle + a late 1st cost them most of their asset pool?

I think that some combination of Moore/Kennedy/Stuart/etc or Havlat via salary dump being the most significant players they've acquired since is kind of self-evident here.

I'm not sure if serious. So are you saying the sharks would be better if they had Coyle instead of Burns?

No, I'm saying the Sharks spent the most valuable of a limited asset pool to acquire a player who didn't and hasn't really made them better.

See "trading for Brad Stuart" as another example of Wilson overrating players who look the part instead of players who do the job.

Okay, back to Sabres stuff. If you want to continue this, I'll mosey over to the Sharks board, just lemme know.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Make damn sure you don't end up like Edmonton or Toronto and more like the Kings or Chicago.

*Looks at Edmonton/Toronto's center situation since 2010*
*Looks at Chicago/LA's*

I think I know which one Buffalo is trending towards!

 

[TalkingProuder]

*Looks at Edmonton/Toronto's center situation since 2010*
*Looks at Chicago/LA's*

I think I know which one Buffalo is trending towards!

I think you better clarify what you mean by Edmonton. They seem to have a few centers...

Maybe you meant they played #1 overall RNH with no help to start his career?

 

[tsujimoto74]

I think you better clarify what you mean by Edmonton. They seem to have a few centers...

Maybe you meant they played #1 overall RNH with no help to start his career?

You should double check what they had there besides RNH prior to winning the McSweepstakes.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I dont like how they tanked their way to Eichel - teams have proven you can rebuild without requiring a losing culture, it is just sad that teams take that route.

Cant wait for the draft system to change even moreso.

Teams have done it since the beginning of the "Entry draft" when players weren't bound by their passport.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think you better clarify what you mean by Edmonton. They seem to have a few centers...

Maybe you meant they played #1 overall RNH with no help to start his career?

How many of them have made an impact like a Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares...etc?

0, that's how many. It's why they tanked better than anyone else for the "McSweepstakes" as people call it.

In any case, Buffalo is unique in the sense that they purged the previous GM's trash and what didn't work and quickly added a ton of new faces that aren't just crap. I mean people can say what they want but Eichel will be surrounded by some pretty damn decent support to start his career with - ROR, Kane, Moulson, Gionta (leadership), and Ennis. They also have a more intriguing group of young forwards now and are trending towards a solid core that has a mix of things to win.

Their defense, ok so they moved a few guys, in regards to Zadorov, I heard more negative things about that kid than positive.

They still have Risto, Bogo, and some solid kids in McCabe as well as a very solid reliable guy in Gorges being the leader on the blueline.

They also sorted their goalie situation, so far it seems anyway, quicker than the Oilers.

 

[MayDay]

How many of them have made an impact like a Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares...etc?

0, that's how many. It's why they tanked better than anyone else for the "McSweepstakes" as people call it.

In any case, Buffalo is unique in the sense that they purged the previous GM's trash and what didn't work and quickly added a ton of new faces that aren't just crap. I mean people can say what they want but Eichel will be surrounded by some pretty damn decent support to start his career with - ROR, Kane, Moulson, Gionta (leadership), and Ennis. They also have a more intriguing group of young forwards now and are trending towards a solid core that has a mix of things to win.

Their defense, ok so they moved a few guys, in regards to Zadorov, I heard more negative things about that kid than positive.

They still have Risto, Bogo, and some solid kids in McCabe as well as a very solid reliable guy in Gorges being the leader on the blueline.

They also sorted their goalie situation, so far it seems anyway, quicker than the Oilers.

You didn't even mention Pysyk.

Between Risto, Bogo, and Pysyk, the Sabres already have 3 of their top 4 d-spots set with young talent for a long time.

Yes, they need one more top pairing D to contend. That's one hole. Maybe that hole doesn't get filled until next year or so - there's no reason that Murray has to put together every last piece of this puzzle this summer, considering the core is young and won't be ready to really contend for a couple years.

 

[MayDay]

Also, there's no way that the Sabres could have just held on to all their prospects, AND used all their 1sts and 2nds this year, AND their high picks next year.

There's a 50 contract limit. You try to stockpile prospects too much, you're going to wind up losing good prospects for nothing because of that limit.

Better to package a few prospects with value for a young established NHLer.

I don't advocate selling off the farm or anything. But the Sabres still have good prospects I'm excited about (like Fasching and McCabe and Ullmark) and more high picks coming up, so I'm not too concerned. I don't think the pipeline is going to dry up. You just can't stockpile too much, is all.

 

[Lemonlimey]

in regards to Zadorov, I heard more negative things about that kid than positive.

When will it end!

 

[TalkingProuder]

Also, there's no way that the Sabres could have just held on to all their prospects, AND used all their 1sts and 2nds this year, AND their high picks next year.

There's a 50 contract limit. You try to stockpile prospects too much, you're going to wind up losing good prospects for nothing because of that limit.

Better to package a few prospects with value for a young established NHLer.

I don't advocate selling off the farm or anything. But the Sabres still have good prospects I'm excited about (like Fasching and McCabe and Ullmark) and more high picks coming up, so I'm not too concerned. I don't think the pipeline is going to dry up. You just can't stockpile too much, is all.

The Sabres had stockpiled so many prospects and picks that they were near the limit on contracts and spots for development. All of their blue chip prospects were kept other than Zadorov. Their cupboard is not empty and will be overflowing again shortly.

Right now, assuming Jack Eichel and Sam Reinhart graduate this year:

Jake McCabe (top 4 Dman within 1 year)
Justin Bailey (top 6 potential)
Hudson Fasching (top 6 potential)
Nick Baptiste (top 6 potential)
Brenadan Guhle (top 4 D potential)
Connor Hurley
Karabacek
Eric Cornel
Brycen Martin
Andrey Makarov
Anthony Florentino
William Carrier
William Borgen
etc

Plenty of guys to develop in Rochester and to restock the cupboard. They also have a bunch of picks next year including another likely top ten pick.

 

[SabreDr]

You mean like Tyler Myers and Zadorov?

If you knew anything about Tyler Myers' game you would know he wasn't a strong or creative PP point man. He was on the NHL's worst team's #2 unit. He was a terrible outlet passer and was weak in his own end. Zadorov played his first year in the NHL last year when it should have been in the AHL but he couldn't play there due to hs age and the Sabres kept him up instead of sending him back to juniors due to unfounded KHL threats. Anyway, when you can get a player like ROR for him you do it and laugh, then draft or trade for a replacement much easier than you will ever get a chance at a player like ROR. How's that

 

[SlapJack]

Good to know I'm not the only one who shares this opinion. Defense first. Trade offensive prospects for offensive proven players. Keep your defense at a high potential throughout the process. Make damn sure you don't end up like Edmonton or Toronto and more like the Kings or Chicago.

Yup. Defense first. They made moves like they're gong to contend imminently. They're not.

Yes, they had to move some of those pieces to acquire NHL talent, but it should have been done differently. It's like Murray was this guy who had been poor his whole life and then won a ton of cash so he went out and giddily spent it all.