Nikita Zadorov: The Almost Dynasty and The Future Travesty Part 1; The Squabble

[Ninja Hertl]

Honestly, I think that deal has aged worse than gotten better. You acquired Burns after three straight playoff exits because you couldn't stop a team's #1 scoring option. A season later he was playing forward.

I think you overrate points as a means of evaluating a defenseman's contribution to offense and overall game.

Wow, probably the worst assessment of a trade I've ever read on HF.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Wow, probably the worst assessment of a trade I've ever read on HF.

Sure, Brent Burns has aged better than the assets he was traded for.

He's also added nothing to the bottom line of a contending team with a closing window after costing them most of their asset pool.

 

[THE HOFF]

Buffalo had a philosophy. they obviously did not want to acquire top prospects and let them grow in a losing environment. The culture of winning comes from a fragile sense of pride within the organization which they weren't ready to let go for a long time. I believe that unlike other teams who let themselves go for years (ie : edmonton) or teams that failed their rebuilt miserably pressing the panic button too fast (ie: toronto) , the sabres went halfway and got good young core players to surround their top prospects. Adding veterans like gionta and gorges to the mix is not going to send them in the playoffs, but it'll get them closer while providing ''healthier'' conditions for young players to develop. Besides their handling of goalies, I think they are doing a great job flipping dead wood (myers, grigorenko) for decent contributors. Even if zadorov turns out to be fabulous, doesn't mean he would have flourished on a team knocking its head at the bottom of the barrel for 5 years. I guess its a question of perspective but Sabre's management clearly hasn't lost the plot.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Sure, Brent Burns has aged better than the assets he was traded for.

He's also added nothing to the bottom line of a contending team with a closing window after costing them most of their asset pool.

How has he added nothing? He's the defenseman who plays the most minutes and scores the most for us. I don't understand. He's not 38, he's recently 30. Even after Thornton and Marleau are gone, Burns could still be around unless he is traded. Probably still producing 45+ and leading the team in ice time.


Also if we traded Burns today, 4 years after the trade, we could get a better return than Coyle. So that should be pretty clear evidence on how good the trade was.

 

[7even]

Buffalo picked up a 1st line centre, a serviceable top 4 d, a 1st line winger, and a goalie with starting potential, all whom fit their age group, all at a cost they could afford with the absurd amount of young depth they had stockpiled in the previous 3 years. Oh, the humanity.

 

[obey86]

Buffalo picked up a 1st line centre, a serviceable top 4 d, a 1st line winger, and a goalie with starting potential, all whom fit their age group, all at a cost they could afford with the absurd amount of young depth they had stockpiled in the previous 3 years. Oh, the humanity.

Won't ROR just be a 1st or 2nd line winger if everything works out as planned though (Eichel and Reinhart as the 1/2 centers)?

 

[WTFetus]

Sure, Brent Burns has aged better than the assets he was traded for.

He's also added nothing to the bottom line of a contending team with a closing window after costing them most of their asset pool.

Ignoring what Doug Wilson did with the 2nd and the busted Phillips since both are irrelevant to the initial trade value, how did Burns + an early 2nd for Setoguchi + Coyle + a late 1st cost them most of their asset pool?

 

[Havok89]

Won't ROR just be a 1st or 2nd line winger if everything works out as planned though (Eichel and Reinhart as the 1/2 centers)?

Eventually, sure.

 

[The Red Helmet]

Buffalo had a philosophy. they obviously did not want to acquire top prospects and let them grow in a losing environment. The culture of winning comes from a fragile sense of pride within the organization which they weren't ready to let go for a long time. I believe that unlike other teams who let themselves go for years (ie : edmonton) or teams that failed their rebuilt miserably pressing the panic button too fast (ie: toronto) , the sabres went halfway and got good young core players to surround their top prospects. Adding veterans like gionta and gorges to the mix is not going to send them in the playoffs, but it'll get them closer while providing ''healthier'' conditions for young players to develop. Besides their handling of goalies, I think they are doing a great job flipping dead wood (myers, grigorenko) for decent contributors. Even if zadorov turns out to be fabulous, doesn't mean he would have flourished on a team knocking its head at the bottom of the barrel for 5 years. I guess its a question of perspective but Sabre's management clearly hasn't lost the plot.

Couldn't agree more. Well said.

 

[crzymexicanbeer]

Sure, Brent Burns has aged better than the assets he was traded for.

He's also added nothing to the bottom line of a contending team with a closing window after costing them most of their asset pool.

I'm not sure if serious. So are you saying the sharks would be better if they had Coyle instead of Burns?

 

[sanitysrequiem]

That's an awful lot of incorrect/ignorant statements you managed to make about O'Reilly in a single post. Impressive.

I was wrong about the contract, 90% is in signing bonuses but they are staggered. My bad. And the contract does buy UFA years but it is still a large overpayment.

But I stand by the attitude problems, attitude doesn't only mean on-ice and dressing room attitude. It's the attitude that he comes before the team, and the inflated sense of self-worth. I can't remember any player who has had such a hard time signing contracts, just ask Avs fans. If you don't think that's contagious and harmful to the attitudes of other players, I don't know what to tell you.

It also definitely does set a precedent when the future comes and Buffalo's top young players need to be re-signed.

And lastly, O'Reilly was a 54 point player last year in nearly a full season. I'm not sure how you can dispute that. He may have gotten 60 points the year before but for all we know that was a career year. Watching him, he is not a go-to offensive player and played with some great linemates in Colorado. He is good defensively but for a 55-65 point player that doesn't drive offense, $7.5 million is steep.

Also something I didn't add which I should have, regarding Buffalo's offseason moves. Dan Bylsma is a pretty terrible coach, and I think that's another poor move by Murray. Combined with overpaying (slightly) asset wise, and (more significantly) cap-wise for talent which is proven but still has questions marks. I just think they sped it up too quickly and will pay for it in the future by failing to become a true Cup contender anytime soon.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Seems to me that Buffalo has really sacrificed LD. Granted, LD are more common than RD, but it doesn't do you any good if you don't have them...

 

[cgf]

I was wrong about the contract, 90% is in signing bonuses but they are staggered. My bad. And the contract does buy UFA years but it is still a large overpayment.

But I stand by the attitude problems, attitude doesn't only mean on-ice and dressing room attitude. It's the attitude that he comes before the team, and the inflated sense of self-worth. I can't remember any player who has had such a hard time signing contracts, just ask Avs fans. If you don't think that's contagious and harmful to the attitudes of other players, I don't know what to tell you.

It also definitely does set a precedent when the future comes and Buffalo's top young players need to be re-signed.

And lastly, O'Reilly was a 54 point player last year in nearly a full season. I'm not sure how you can dispute that. He may have gotten 60 points the year before but for all we know that was a career year. Watching him, he is not a go-to offensive player and played with some great linemates in Colorado. He is good defensively but for a 55-65 point player that doesn't drive offense, $7.5 million is steep.

Also something I didn't add which I should have, regarding Buffalo's offseason moves. Dan Bylsma is a pretty terrible coach, and I think that's another poor move by Murray. Combined with overpaying (slightly) asset wise, and (more significantly) cap-wise for talent which is proven but still has questions marks. I just think they sped it up too quickly and will pay for it in the future by failing to become a true Cup contender anytime soon.

KK, lemme go ask my fellow avs fans who have been following his career for 6 years now what we think...

You're really off the mark about ROR.

 

[wunderpanda]

I agree with the OP that we have attempted to upgrade the forwards ahead of the defense. Can also see how the trades can look like over payments or that Murray is just incapable of negotiating.

Can't agree that Zadorov is the tipping point tho. He wasn't NHL ready, should have been in juniors, could be in the AHL next season. Not unreasonable to think McCabe or a signing will be ahead of him in development by the time Zad is NHL ready.

Won't be defending or criticizing Murray tho, I may not like the costs of his moves but can't say they are detrimental. ROR is great insurance if Reinhart or Eichel bust, but if he was worth his contract Colorado would have kept him. Every move he has made has a similar caveat built in. His aggressiveness could make him a genius or the worst GM since Milbury.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

I was wrong about the contract, 90% is in signing bonuses but they are staggered. My bad. And the contract does buy UFA years but it is still a large overpayment.

But I stand by the attitude problems, attitude doesn't only mean on-ice and dressing room attitude. It's the attitude that he comes before the team, and the inflated sense of self-worth. I can't remember any player who has had such a hard time signing contracts, just ask Avs fans. If you don't think that's contagious and harmful to the attitudes of other players, I don't know what to tell you.

It also definitely does set a precedent when the future comes and Buffalo's top young players need to be re-signed.

And lastly, O'Reilly was a 54 point player last year in nearly a full season. I'm not sure how you can dispute that. He may have gotten 60 points the year before but for all we know that was a career year. Watching him, he is not a go-to offensive player and played with some great linemates in Colorado. He is good defensively but for a 55-65 point player that doesn't drive offense, $7.5 million is steep.

Also something I didn't add which I should have, regarding Buffalo's offseason moves. Dan Bylsma is a pretty terrible coach, and I think that's another poor move by Murray. Combined with overpaying (slightly) asset wise, and (more significantly) cap-wise for talent which is proven but still has questions marks. I just think they sped it up too quickly and will pay for it in the future by failing to become a true Cup contender anytime soon.

Sabres seemed to sign him pretty easily.

Didn't the avs have a hard time signing him because they have too many stars and not enough cap to eventually sign them all? I don't think it was all about ROR, but more about managing cap space.

Not sure i see your point here.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Could you please shed some light on why in a matter of a few months you've changed your opinion here?

I was clearly referring to Armia and Grigoremko as not being elite prospects. Not once have I said Zadorov isn't a great prospect.

AFTER the trade:

Zadorov was the centerpiece and he's a great asset. He can be anywhere from a #4/5 dman all the way to a top pairing guy. He's 20 years old and even if he doesn't improve at all he's a proven NHL caliber dman. He is worth a lot.

I said right here in a response to someone saying we didn't trade a lot for RoR. I just said Zadorov is a great asset and has top pairing potential. And that no matter what, even if he doesn't progress that he is already a NHL caliber dman

You got a great return. Zadorov has a skillset that is very hard to come by. He will be a great #2. Compher is a very nice prospect. 31 will nab a first round caliber prospect. Grigs is an enigma. Has the tools but looks lost in the NHL. Hopefully RoR doesn't demand 8+ and will take 7 or 7.5. I like getting McGinn hopefully his back works out . I was never the biggest RoR fan but after reading what a lot of posters here say about him I guess I can't help but be excited.

Good luck with Zads he's a keeper.

What I said on the Avs board right after the trade. I have never once flipped my opinion on Zadorov. I said numerous times he can be a top pairing guy and is an elite prospect.

So again, you didn't even comprehend my post . When I said Buffalo traded non elite prospects I clearly meant Armia and Grigs because I singled them out right after I made that statement. I didn't say one word about Zadodov. So no my opinion has never changed on Zadorov. He's a top prospect who will be a top pairing dman. Almost assuredly a #2 dman on the top pairing with a scarce skillset. Not many good skating big strong dmen with offensive flair . He may even be a #1 but he never would have been that here because he isn't nearly as good as Ristolainen.... Which is something I said well before he was ever traded and was still a Sabre.

 

[wshahbaz]

So basically you say the Sabres rebuild is **** because we traded away 1 top 4 dman and 1 "future top 4" dman

And according to your theory the Sabres will prob finish bottom 10 again this year. Which means they could pick up another "future top 4 dman" exactly on par with Zadarovs skills. I don't know where people are getting all this info that Zad was such a gifted player. A player his caliber is not a hard find in the top 10.

Sabres NEEDED offense. Do you even realize how bleak the sabres top 6 would be if we kept Myers and Zad? Eichel, our supposed franchise savior, would almost be carrying the team all by himself for the first 2 years.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

The biggest reason the Sabres were so bad was their offense or lack thereof. The Sabres finished last back to back years not only in the standings but in goals for. They didn't even average 2 goals a game the last two years! In 13-14 they were THIRTY NINE goals behind 29th. This past year they were 9 behind Arizona for 29th but that's because Arizona was also tanking unlike 13-14 where teams didn't bother to because the prize wasn't nearly as good as McEichel.

Removing the only net loss on D in Zadorov to add RoR and Kane up front (along with Eichel and Reinhart as internal additions) will automatically make the Sabres far better . In fact the Sabres go from having the worst offense since 2013 to one of the more intriguing forward groups.

Kane-RoR-Ennis
Moulson-Eichel-Girgensons

Is a pretty nice top 6. And that's not counting Reinhart who may very well put up 40-50 points this year. Or he may start in Rochester. Regardless, the Sabres have a very good top 6 no matter what contribution Reinhart gives us. Ennis is a proven 20 goal scorer, Girgensons scored 15 last year in a shortened season and was on pace for 20, Moulson is a 3x 30 goal scorer, Kane should be good for 20-25 goals if healthy and RoR will likely score 20-25. And then we have Eichel. He may struggle at the start and could finish with 40 points, or he could come in and excel and lead the team in scoring. In the end, the top 6 of the Sabres will score almost as many goals as the whole roster did last year.

 

[duffy9748]

I am a fan of what Buffalo is doing, but I think they would have been better off not doing the Myers trade. Not saying they got ripped off or anything, the value was pretty equal, but having Eichel/Reinhart/O'Reilly/Girgensons up front along with Myers and Ristolainen anchoring two pairs would be a fantastic foundation.

 

[Royal Thunder]

I am a fan of what Buffalo is doing, but I think they would have been better off not doing the Myers trade. Not saying they got ripped off or anything, the value was pretty equal, but having Eichel/Reinhart/O'Reilly/Girgensons up front along with Myers and Ristolainen anchoring two pairs would be a fantastic foundation.

If you read through the thread, there are 50+ posts by Sabres fans saying Bogosian played better for us than Myers. It's almost a consensus that for us, Bogosian is at worst a wash compared to Myers, and many think he is much more suited to the playoffs and playing hard minutes against top competition.

Getting Kane along with it makes that trade a no brainer without giving up any prime assets

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Agree 100% with the OP.


Its hilarious reading how quickly so many sabres fans defend and even applaud the trades Murray has made.


Before the Evander Kane trade the Sabres fans common theme was "Myers is untouchable and if he's moved it'll take a mountain of assets, he's a big Top pairing Dman who's showing signs of being a #1" Now that he's not longer a Sabre(And coincidentally enough actually looking much better in Winnipeg), Sabres fans are singing the same song again "Myers was always nothing more than a good #3 for us and that's all he'll ever be, thank god we swapped him our for a Top 2 guy in Bogosian". Myers is significantly better than Bogosian, both now and in the future.


And the same thing applies for ROR and Zadorov. Before that trade half of the Sabres fan base wanted nothing to do with ROR and his overrated, soon to be overpaid ways and Zadorov was a big, monster Dman with #2 potential written all over him. Fast forward 2 weeks later, and ROR is an Elite 2 way center(Which is true admittedly) on a fantastic contract and will be a core pice for years. While Zadorov is a big question mark where a lot of things have to go right before he even comes close to reaching his potential.

Its hilarious. Buffalo would have been much better off making none of those trades(Instead moving the likes of Grigorenko, Lemieux, Armia out in smaller prospect swap trades instead). Drafting Eichel at #2, Colin White at #21, and Jeremy Roy at #24. Still having Myers, Zadorov, on the back end and build a core around:

Ennis, Eichel, Reinheart, Girgensons up front and Zadorov, Myers, Ristoalinen on Defense. A Forward core that already has 4/6 very good young future Top 6 forwards, and a D core that in 3 years is likely made up of 3 very good #2's at least, with Risto likely being a #1 himself. The most important part, is they would have had a tonne of good complimentary pieces in Roy, White, #31 Pick, Grigorenko/Lemieux/Armia swaps, Compher etc. to build around that core. Now, they've got a similarly skilled core as before, a little more proven but by no means is it better in 2-3 years. But they now lack the complimentary pieces like Compher, like a Jeremy Roy, like a Grigorenko, etc. that they would have had before these trades.

 

[Syckle78]

The only move I question is adding an unneeded headache like Kane to such a young impressionable team.

 

[Moskau]

The only move I question is adding an unneeded headache like Kane to such a young impressionable team.

Outside of being annoying on Twitter Evander Kane hasn't really done much. And almost every team mate that has talked about him say that he's very humble away from the spotlight.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

You act as if Bogosian is chopped liver. I would view Myers for Bogosian as a slight downgrade so the lose is not as big as you think

Agreed. I think the only tangible difference between Myers and Bogosian is that Myers can actually stay healthy for a season, whereas Bogosian can't.

 

[TalkingProuder]

Agree 100% with the OP.


Its hilarious reading how quickly so many sabres fans defend and even applaud the trades Murray has made.


Before the Evander Kane trade the Sabres fans common theme was "Myers is untouchable and if he's moved it'll take a mountain of assets, he's a big Top pairing Dman who's showing signs of being a #1" Now that he's not longer a Sabre(And coincidentally enough actually looking much better in Winnipeg), Sabres fans are singing the same song again "Myers was always nothing more than a good #3 for us and that's all he'll ever be, thank god we swapped him our for a Top 2 guy in Bogosian". Myers is significantly better than Bogosian, both now and in the future.


And the same thing applies for ROR and Zadorov. Before that trade half of the Sabres fan base wanted nothing to do with ROR and his overrated, soon to be overpaid ways and Zadorov was a big, monster Dman with #2 potential written all over him. Fast forward 2 weeks later, and ROR is an Elite 2 way center(Which is true admittedly) on a fantastic contract and will be a core pice for years. While Zadorov is a big question mark where a lot of things have to go right before he even comes close to reaching his potential.

Its hilarious. Buffalo would have been much better off making none of those trades(Instead moving the likes of Grigorenko, Lemieux, Armia out in smaller prospect swap trades instead). Drafting Eichel at #2, Colin White at #21, and Jeremy Roy at #24. Still having Myers, Zadorov, on the back end and build a core around:

Ennis, Eichel, Reinheart, Girgensons up front and Zadorov, Myers, Ristoalinen on Defense. A Forward core that already has 4/6 very good young future Top 6 forwards, and a D core that in 3 years is likely made up of 3 very good #2's at least, with Risto likely being a #1 himself. The most important part, is they would have had a tonne of good complimentary pieces in Roy, White, #31 Pick, Grigorenko/Lemieux/Armia swaps, Compher etc. to build around that core. Now, they've got a similarly skilled core as before, a little more proven but by no means is it better in 2-3 years. But they now lack the complimentary pieces like Compher, like a Jeremy Roy, like a Grigorenko, etc. that they would have had before these trades.

What you're proposing was the route Edmonton took. Draft prospects and have them carry the load in the NHL. I'm sorry but Buffalo had no interest in doing that.

ROR, Evander Kane, Bogosian, Lehner, McGinn are better complimentary pieces than what they lost. All 25 and younger, only McGinn is ufa after the year.