Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 8

[26Mats]

What's the Kovalchuk obsession? He had 5 good games and then was pretty invisible most of the time.
He'll be 38 next season...I rather we focus on getting Suzuki a good winger he'll be able to grow with, not one who should retire.

I would take Dadonov or Hoofnsn ahead of Kovalchuk - if they actually come here, which would entail MB actually being the highest bidder.

But I would still also take Kovalchuk - if he actually came back, which is also unlikely now that he's gotten a taste of playing on a good team.

But Suzuki definitely needs good wingers. Would help his development.

MB's already missed out on a ton that were avalable for cheap or nothing. What's your package?

 

[cphabs]

He said not hitting 80 points would be a disappointment , meaning 90-100 points isn't out of the question in his prime, or are we saying that if someone doesn't hit their absolute ceiling they're a disappointment? I was clearly demonstrating how ridiculous that statement was especially considering Montreal never produces or acquires point per game players (only one 80 point player in nearly 3 decades).

I dont see us having a 90 point player with the current front office.

 

[CauZuki]

I dont see us having a 90 point player with the current front office.

I tend to agree especially with how we've been trending based on 2.5 decades of data but who knows we may get lucky.
It's important that people understand when they say things like Suzuki would be a disappointment if he doesn't hit 80 points per season how rare it is to consistently produce those type of numbers and the systems/chemistry required to achieve such a thing. Suzuki as a 2 way beast and 60-70 point seems a lot more realistic to me...

 

[Habs Icing]

He said not hitting 80 points would be a disappointment , meaning 90-100 points isn't out of the question in his prime, or are we saying that if someone doesn't hit their absolute ceiling they're a disappointment? I was clearly demonstrating how ridiculous that statement was especially considering Montreal never produces or acquires point per game players (only one 80 point player in nearly 3 decades).

Words and meaning matter , whether you care or not.

He didn't say hitting 80 points would be mildly pleasant but hitting 90-100 would be awesome.

He simply made mention of the 80 point mark. You went to the trouble of listing the 90+ players. Why? Why not mention the 80+ players? I think we all know why?

 

[cphabs]

I tend to agree especially with how we've been trending based on 2.5 decades of data but who knows we may get lucky.
It's important that people understand when they say things like Suzuki would be a disappointment if he doesn't hit 80 points per season how rare it is to consistently produce those type of numbers and the systems/chemistry required to achieve such a thing. Suzuki as a 2 way beast and 60-70 point seems a lot more realistic to me...

Man our front office is bad.

 

[Kriss E]

I would take Dadonov or Hoofnsn ahead of Kovalchuk - if they actually come here, which would entail MB actually being the highest bidder.

But I would still also take Kovalchuk - if he actually came back, which is also unlikely now that he's gotten a taste of playing on a good team.

But Suzuki definitely needs good wingers. Would help his development.

MB's already missed out on a ton that were avalable for cheap or nothing. What's your package?

Poehling, Brook, Fleury, Byron, Mete, Evans, draft picks, they're all in play.

I dont want Kovalchuk, he's done or at best has a year or two at a decent~mediocre level.
If they can't get Dadonov or the likes via free agency, then make a trade.

 

[OldCraig71]

A pass through guys battling in front and landing on an outside teammate...ya...never been done before.
Guess you started watching hockey 3 days ago.

Despite the fact that it might be done in beer league I highly doubt that many beer league guys can pull off that type of pass against NHL competition. I am a career beer leaguer with a "few" years experience.

 

[CauZuki]

He didn't say hitting 80 points would be mildly pleasant but hitting 90-100 would be awesome.

He simply made mention of the 80 point mark. (This is incorrect please read the post I quoted) You went to the trouble of listing the 90+ players. Why? Why not mention the 80+ players? I think we all know why?

Before you go into a tangent , understand what I am saying before you start formulating your rebuttal. It's really not as black/white as you mention , as he said not hitting 80 points would be a disappointment.

Synonyms for disappointment

• dismay,
• dissatisfaction,
• frustration,
• letdown

So you agree with the statement that if he would have a career of 65-75 points per year that would make him a disappointment?

The reason I listed the players I did was to show those players that also have normally hit 80 points and are now hitting 90-100 points in their prime.
Meaning I don't think it's realistic to put Suzuki in the same category as players that are expected to hit 80+ points (or it would really be a dissapointment for the team that drafted them 1st overall in many cases).

Hitting 80 points in today's NHL is certainly not a given and we certainly don't have a system conducive for such a thing to happen (see: Our last 25 years of top point producers).
My point stands as there is simply no bearing to make such a statement , saying that anything under 80 points is a disappointment means that 90-100 is within reason during his prime.
Do you understand my logic? If I owned a business and say that it would be a disappointment if my CEO had 80% of last year's revenue , then I would expect that if they fulfilled their potential it wouldn't be 81,82,83% , it would be significantly higher. The line between disappointment and great success isn't a couple points and that's why words matter and that's my issue with this type of statement.

 

[Habs Icing]

Before you go into a tangent , understand what I am saying before you start formulating your rebuttal. It's really not as black/white as you mention , as he said not hitting 80 points would be a disappointment.

Synonyms for disappointment

• dismay,
• dissatisfaction,
• frustration,
• letdown

So you agree with the statement that if he would have a career of 65-75 points per year that would make him a disappointment?

The reason I listed the players I did was to show those players that also have normally hit 80 points and are now hitting 90-100 points in their prime.
Meaning I don't think it's realistic to put Suzuki in the same category as players that are expected to hit 80+ points (or it would really be a dissapointment for the team that drafted them 1st overall in many cases).

Hitting 80 points in today's NHL is certainly not a given and we certainly don't have a system conducive for such a thing to happen (see: Our last 25 years of top point producers).
My point stands as there is simply no bearing to make such a statement , saying that anything under 80 points is a disappointment means that 90-100 is within reason during his prime.
Do you understand my logic? If I owned a business and say that it would be a disappointment if my CEO had 80% of last year's revenue , then I would expect that if they fulfilled their potential it wouldn't be 81,82,83% , it would be significantly higher. The line between disappointment and great success isn't a couple points and that's why words matter and that's my issue with this type of statement.

What I read from his post was he expected Suzuki to be at least an 80 point player. He made no mention of 90+ points. If you wanted to show he was wrong you would have posted a list of players who hit 80 and shown what sort of player hits 80 points. You didn't do that. You made a list of 90 point players. You're not debating honestly when you do that.

BTW, you may be right about suzuki. I don't know. You just presented a poor argument.

 

[26Mats]

Poehling, Brook, Fleury, Byron, Mete, Evans, draft picks, they're all in play.

I dont want Kovalchuk, he's done or at best has a year or two at a decent~mediocre level.
If they can't get Dadonov or the likes via free agency, then make a trade.

We can agree to disagree on Kovalchuk. This isn't the place to discuss, and we a li ready know each other's positions and evidence to back them up.

While does this package (Poehling, Brook, Fleury, Byron, Mete, Evans, draft picks) get you?

 

[Kriss E]

We can agree to disagree on Kovalchuk. This isn't the place to discuss, and we a li ready know each other's positions and evidence to back them up.

While does this package (Poehling, Brook, Fleury, Byron, Mete, Evans, draft picks) get you?

I couldn't tell you, I'm not one to participate in trade proposal as anybody can always say no they wouldn't accept. Point is, we have enough interesting assets to dangle and get a legit top 6 back.

 

[CauZuki]

What I read from his post was he expected Suzuki to be at least an 80 point player. He made no mention of 90+ points. If you wanted to show he was wrong you would have posted a list of players who hit 80 and shown what sort of player hits 80 points. You didn't do that. You made a list of 90 point players. You're not debating honestly when you do that.

BTW, you may be right about suzuki. I don't know. You just presented a poor argument.

Unfortunately you don't understand the emphasis on language, saying not hitting 80 points would be a disappointment means that you expect him to hit more than that on average. Words matters , your interpretation of his comment is incorrect in my opinion.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Give him Tatar and Gally.

 

[DangerDave]

A pass through guys battling in front and landing on an outside teammate...ya...never been done before.
Guess you started watching hockey 3 days ago.

Ya I guess the Hong Kong beer league is really an up and comer eh. Heard theirs a couple guys who used to play select in Canada there.

The fact that you didn't even see the subtle move he made to freeze the defense tells me you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. But I already knew that.

 

[Habs Icing]

Unfortunately you don't understand the emphasis on language, saying not hitting 80 points would be a disappointment means that you expect him to hit more than that on average. Words matters , your interpretation of his comment is incorrect in my opinion.

Let's agree to disagree.

81 is more than 80 but less than 90. So is 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89 but you jumped straight to 90. It's not an emphasis on language that's in question.

 

[domiwroze]

A Laffy - Suzuki - Gallagher next year might get us close to a 80pts

 

[Kriss E]

Ya I guess the Hong Kong beer league is really an up and comer eh. Heard theirs a couple guys who used to play select in Canada there.

The fact that you didn't even see the subtle move he made to freeze the defense tells me you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. But I already knew that.

I dont know what I'm talking about? Good one.
Coming from the guy who thinks only about 5 guys can make this OMFG amazing play..
Crosby, McDavid, MacKinnon, Kane, Marner, Tavares, Malkin, Rantanen, and the list goes on of players who can easily also make this play. Maybe watch other teams play, you'll notice this isn't such an uncommon occurrence.
I get it, you're excited about finally having some talent here. No need to go over the top with it.

PS: The Beer leagues in Hong Kong are filled with Canadian expats who played at a high junior level and semi pro. You can't just join the team, you need to go to a camp and prove yourself. The cost of renting ice in HK is extremely expensive so they take their league very seriously. So you can make fun of it all you want but you're only speaking out of ignorance.
And I didn't play there, I was referring to my time here. Also, I left Hong Kong last November.

 

[The Great Weal]

that's the way I see it, I would be disappointed if in his prime he's not putting up 70ish pts every year.

If he shoots the puck more, he can be an 80 point player. Hes got a great shot that he needs to use more. Otherwise, I see him being a 60-70 point player.

 

[26Mats]

I couldn't tell you, I'm not one to participate in trade proposal as anybody can always say no they wouldn't accept. Point is, we have enough interesting assets to dangle and get a legit top 6 back.

We do have the assets. It's just that teams will want good young assets - mainly our first.

Would you trade a 1st for a vet? I don't see teams trading a young top 6 winger with loads of potential for a 1st.

Poehling. Fleury, Brook, and Mete don't have all that much trade value in their own. Same with Byron. They'd have to be packaged with a 1st.

 

[26Mats]

Give him Tatar and Gally.

Would be nice.

But when Julien is ready to split up the Danault line, I wouldn't mind Tatar and Gally each helping out their own lines, with Suzuki centering one of them and Domi or KK centering the other.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I dont know what I'm talking about? Good one.
Coming from the guy who thinks only about 5 guys can make this OMFG amazing play..
Crosby, McDavid, MacKinnon, Kane, Marner, Tavares, Malkin, Rantanen, and the list goes on of players who can easily also make this play. Maybe watch other teams play, you'll notice this isn't such an uncommon occurrence.
I get it, you're excited about finally having some talent here. No need to go over the top with it.

it's probably worth the effort to expand that list to make your point a bit better I think.

You could expand it to 25 players and that's still great company. To be honest I'm not sure 25 players have his ability to sell fakes the way he does. Those 2 fakes he pulled where he completely sold the Laffs D in pretty quick succession is indeed quite rare. I see the best of the best pull fakes that do very little. In basketball it happens all the time. Much harder to do in hockey.

If you think like 50 players can do that in an NHL game then no. They don't exist. Whether we think it's 5-10 players rare or it's 25 players rare (can't concede much more than that) the fact is at the end of the day that's still a rare skill.

 

[montreal]

If he shoots the puck more, he can be an 80 point player. Hes got a great shot that he needs to use more. Otherwise, I see him being a 60-70 point player.

I would think he will as he gets more comfortable out there but also depending on linemates in the future, if he has our best shooters on his line perhaps he won't shoot as much as he should since his shot is so deadly, but if he's with guys like Drouin or Domi, guys who are better at moving the puck then shooting it, perhaps it will force him to start shooting more once he's more comfortable.

 

[Kriss E]

it's probably worth the effort to expand that list to make your point a bit better I think.

You could expand it to 25 players and that's still great company. To be honest I'm not sure 25 players have his ability to sell fakes the way he does. Those 2 fakes he pulled where he completely sold the Laffs D in pretty quick succession is indeed quite rare. I see the best of the best pull fakes that do very little. In basketball it happens all the time. Much harder to do in hockey.

If you think like 50 players can do that in an NHL game then no. They don't exist. Whether we think it's 5-10 players rare or it's 25 players rare (can't concede much more than that) the fact is at the end of the day that's still a rare skill.

I don't think I have to write up a list of players who can do this. If someone needs me to do it, then I just assume they know very little about other players in the NHL.
But wait, you think not 50 players could make this play?
Why don't you look at the list of the 50 best scorers in 19-20, tell me who in there you think can't do such plays?
NHL.com Stats
For the sake of the argument, take away the few defensemen if you want, tell me with a straight face guys like Petterson, Barkov, Kopitar, O'Reilly, Toews, Stone, can't do this. If you think that then you simply haven't watched those guy play all that much.

It was a nice play from Suzuki. That's all there is to it. No it's not rare.

 

[Kriss E]

We do have the assets. It's just that teams will want good young assets - mainly our first.

Would you trade a 1st for a vet? I don't see teams trading a young top 6 winger with loads of potential for a 1st.

Poehling. Fleury, Brook, and Mete don't have all that much trade value in their own. Same with Byron. They'd have to be packaged with a 1st.

Obviously if we end up with the 1st overall I wouldn't do it. A 9th? Ya, I would, assuming whoever comes in is talented.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I don't think I have to write up a list of players who can do this. If someone needs me to do it, then I just assume they know very little about other players in the NHL.
But wait, you think not 50 players could make this play?
Why don't you look at the list of the 50 best scorers in 19-20, tell me who in there you think can't do such plays?
NHL.com Stats
For the sake of the argument, take away the few defensemen if you want, tell me with a straight face guys like Petterson, Barkov, Kopitar, O'Reilly, Toews, Stone, can't do this. If you think that then you simply haven't watched those guy play all that much.

It was a nice play from Suzuki. That's all there is to it. No it's not rare.

I'll admit I don't really want to comb through all that footage to see. Unless you do since you think it's pretty easy to find.

I think you're concentrating on the pass itself too much here. Sure that pass can happen from many.

It's really the TWO fakes that open up that pass. And those Leaf players bit pretty hard on BOTH and they happened within seconds of each other. P. Kane can do that. Not so sure Toews can. He might.

I'd re-watch those Laff players on BOTH fakes. Again, it's not about how many players can make that pass but how many players are that good at telegraphing one way and having defenders bite as hard as they do.

It's the whole sequence and how effortlessly and smooth it was done as well. Maybe 50 players have done that exact play but I'm not sure they all could've done it as well as he did. That's the point too.

I think it's rare. You don't.

I'll just agree to disagree. Really no way to prove one's right or the other's wrong unless you want to dig out some highlight reels.