NHL to Seattle Volume XVI - It's Official. Seattle to join the league for 21-22 season.

[gstommylee]

I really don’t understand why you’re so gung-ho about that ONE TEAM since your team is going to be in the Pacific and wouldn’t be affected no matter what alignment there is.

What’s in the best interest of the league is what’s going to give them the best overall ticket sales in the markets they choose to be in. Having players spend an extra hour sitting on a charter flight playing Fortnite (unless you’re Vancouver) really isn’t the issue here.

Seattle gets impacted too depending on the alignment is. 2 more teams close to them or travel a longer more often to arizona and colorado.

 

[MNNumbers]

Seattle gets impacted too depending on the alignment is. 2 more teams close to them or travel a longer more often to arizona and colorado.

Tommy,

I just still suspect that you either.....

1- Don't want to be wrong so you keep preaching your opinion (as that's all it is) from every mountain top, or.....

2- Hate Arizona so bad that you can't stand the idea of being in their division, or.....

3- Can't wait for the Seattles to play Calgary and Edmonton. And, are soooo looking forward to that that you can't stand the thought of missing at most 3 such home games every year.

 

[gstommylee]

Tommy,

I just still suspect that you either.....

1- Don't want to be wrong so you keep preaching your opinion (as that's all it is) from every mountain top, or.....

2- Hate Arizona so bad that you can't stand the idea of being in their division, or.....

3- Can't wait for the Seattles to play Calgary and Edmonton. And, are soooo looking forward to that that you can't stand the thought of missing at most 3 such home games every year.

So Seatle should only play vancouver and the rest of the teams be southwestern teams int he pacific and nothing else?

Seattle is paying 650m for a team they should have a right to dictate who they want to play in their division.

 

[MNNumbers]

So Seatle should only play vancouver and the rest of the teams be southwestern teams int he pacific and nothing else?

Seattle is paying 650m for a team they should have a right to dictate who they want to play in their division.

Thank you for finally being honest.

So, the theory is that the NEW owners, who have paid to have a team (last I checked, the right to have a team didn't include the right to choose the alignment, but, whatever....) also get to choose their division-mates, because they paid 650M....

Hmmmm.....That's an interesting theory. How about this one? The other owners might just say.....
Hey, we gave you great expansion draft rules. Far better than any expansion except Vegas ever has had in any sport. And, now YOU want to dictate the alignment, too? Sorry. It's our league. You are the new guys. WE will tell YOU who plays in which division. If you wanted the right, too, maybe we should have charged you 750M for the team.

See how that works both ways?

Again, as I have said many times.....I'm not predicting. If I were forced to, I would guess Arizona moves, but NOT because of what Seattle says. Rather, because of what Calgary says.

But, either way, neither option is a major re-alignment. And, no one should be surprised at either.

Nor should anyone be surprised if either Calgary or Arizona move to Houston in the interim (sorry DOM - not a prediction, just pointing out the possibility).

 

[Killion]

Thank you for finally being honest.

So, the theory is that the NEW owners, who have paid to have a team (last I checked, the right to have a team didn't include the right to choose the alignment, but, whatever....) also get to choose their division-mates, because they paid 650M....

Hmmmm.....That's an interesting theory. How about this one? The other owners might just say.....
Hey, we gave you great expansion draft rules. Far better than any expansion except Vegas ever has had in any sport. And, now YOU want to dictate the alignment, too? Sorry. It's our league. You are the new guys. WE will tell YOU who plays in which division. If you wanted the right, too, maybe we should have charged you 750M for the team.

See how that works both ways?

Again, as I have said many times.....I'm not predicting. If I were forced to, I would guess Arizona moves, but NOT because of what Seattle says. Rather, because of what Calgary says.

But, either way, neither option is a major re-alignment. And, no one should be surprised at either.

Nor should anyone be surprised if either Calgary or Arizona move to Houston in the interim (sorry DOM - not a prediction, just pointing out the possibility).

Obviously no one gets to "dictate" the terms of engagement or for that matter "surrender" as Napolean did at Waterloo... and we saw how that turned out but still... this is a League that after sending the Original Ottawa Senators to Pennsylvania left them in the then called "Canadian Division" which saw the franchise incurring million in cost overruns on travel expenses resulting in the demise of the franchise.... in 67/68, nary a though to inter-continental travel, wear & tear on the players, costs... bye bye Seals etc.... on & on & on.... so sure, Tommy has every tight to be concerned. Critical Thought. Where is it? Uh? Morons make the same mistakes over & over & over & over again. Besides which, Damn Straight. $600M+++ not chicken feed for what is a 2 bit League. You got RIGHTS!

 

[MNNumbers]

Well, now Killion, you are getting into a different subject, which is.....

How in the world can an expansion NHL team be worth 650M, when the median franchise value from Forbes is less than that? Answer: The BOG continue to be extortionists.....

As for Seattle, I'm merely pointing out that Seattle only has as much say as any other team in the league (and maybe less depending - for example, Foley isn't getting a cut of the Seattle expansion fee because he's the new guy - they make it hard on the new guy).

And, contrary to Seattle having a strong say or a valued vote.....What is Barroway in Arizona says, "Hey, you guys sold 35,000 partial season ticket commitments in 12 minutes. You've got a full house promised you no matter who comes to play at the new Seattle Arena." That's a strong argument.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Nor should anyone be surprised if either Calgary or Arizona move to Houston in the interim (sorry DOM - not a prediction, just pointing out the possibility).

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised...just like I wouldn't be surprised if I was playing holdem on a flush draw getting 8:1 pot odds that I hit my 4:1 against draw. Will it happen? Probably not, but if it does I would not be "surprised". (Which is about my assessment of being moved in the next 10 years, btw. 20%)

 

[Seattle Totems]

Kinda like when you put Florida teams in a division with Canadian ones.

The NHL put florida teams in a northern division because of all the cdn snowbirds in that state. Probably not a coincidence that the lightning and Panthers respectively dress up as the Leafs and Canadians either.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

So Seatle should only play vancouver and the rest of the teams be southwestern teams int he pacific and nothing else?

Seattle is paying 650m for a team they should have a right to dictate who they want to play in their division.

They already get to dictate who gets to be on their team from other teams.

 

[KevFu]

The NHL put florida teams in a northern division because of all the cdn snowbirds in that state. Probably not a coincidence that the lightning and Panthers respectively dress up as the Leafs and Canadians either.

It was fool hardy to think that you could take four new teams with zero history and put them into a division together with one team (that at the time had never won the Cup and wasn't very good) and expect fans to come out in droves to watch these teams they'd hardly heard of.

Splitting up TB/FLA from CAR and putting them with 6 or 7 northern teams makes more sense. Both from a business perspective and making their fans feel part of the NHL.

 

[MNNumbers]

In regard to the Florida thing...

The Florida teams were either going to end up the Northeast corridor, or with the NY/PA group. Either way, it would be good for them, because they get put with established, old-style hockey clubs and their fans. And, like KevFu said, that's far better economics than a division with Carolina, Tampa and Miami among 5 teams. The NHL got by with that ONCE, with the 67 expansion, and in those days, crowds were around 10,000. Totally different time.

But, in reality, comparing the Florida teams and where they played with the CGY/EDM or COL/ARZ situation is really fool hardy. The economics behind the 2 are vastly different. The only thing that is similar is that both cases have an element of north/south travel involved. And, as been stated here, north/south travel is NOT the problem.

To re-iterate....The reason for the present alignment is time zones....not time of travel. Time zones matter because of local TV exposure when a team is on the road. It would make NO sense, for example, for Dallas to be in a division with LAK, ANA, ARZ and VGK. Every division road game starts at 9:00 Dallas time. It makes it difficult for fans who are not completely immersed in hockey culture to stay connected to the team. The other reason for the present alignment is traditional rivalries. For example, even though Detroit as a city is near Chicago, and not far from Minneapolis, Detroit's fans are much more closely in tune with hating the Leafs. Thus, it makes better sense for local revenue to have the Wings play the Leafs more often.

Putting those things together:

Time Zones:
If COL/ARZ are in the Central: Arizona is inconvenienced for its local TV fans when they are on the road. I'm not sure how big a deal this actually is. The extra games in PTZ for Central teams would be few enough that it wouldn't matter. Except that playoff travel has the potential to become worse here.
If EDM/CGY are in the Central, everything is good for start times for everyone.

Rivals:
If COL/ARZ move to the Central, then the ARZ fans have to start all over hating someone. This could be a difficult situation, right after they have begun to improve, and perhaps even made a playoff round or tow.
If EDM/CGY move, then they lose Vancouver, but they gain Winnipeg. Calgary fans, I know, much prefer Vancouver.

That's the equation. Has been from the time the Seattle thing started until now. It won't change.

 

[gstommylee]

 

[PanthersHockey1]

Do we have a sense of timeline? When do we think Seattle NHL team would be up and running? 2020-2021 season?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Do we have a sense of timeline? When do we think Seattle NHL team would be up and running? 2020-2021 season?

yes, it has to be ready when the arena renovations are completed

 

[Melrose Munch]

It was fool hardy to think that you could take four new teams with zero history and put them into a division together with one team (that at the time had never won the Cup and wasn't very good) and expect fans to come out in droves to watch these teams they'd hardly heard of.

Splitting up TB/FLA from CAR and putting them with 6 or 7 northern teams makes more sense. Both from a business perspective and making their fans feel part of the NHL.

How do you feel a part of the NHL based on division.

 

[Grudy0]

The NHL put florida teams in a northern division because of all the cdn snowbirds in that state. Probably not a coincidence that the lightning and Panthers respectively dress up as the Leafs and Canadians either.

In regard to the Florida thing...

The Florida teams were either going to end up the Northeast corridor, or with the NY/PA group. Either way, it would be good for them, because they get put with established, old-style hockey clubs and their fans. And, like KevFu said, that's far better economics than a division with Carolina, Tampa and Miami among 5 teams. The NHL got by with that ONCE, with the 67 expansion, and in those days, crowds were around 10,000. Totally different time.

But, in reality, comparing the Florida teams and where they played with the CGY/EDM or COL/ARZ situation is really fool hardy. The economics behind the 2 are vastly different. The only thing that is similar is that both cases have an element of north/south travel involved. And, as been stated here, north/south travel is NOT the problem.

No, the NHL put the Florida teams in the "northern" division because the compact "Patrick" division had no room a the inn.

At one time there was a report at the beginning of realignment scenarios in 2011 that had Pittsburgh and Philadelphia in separate divisions - the Flyers would have been with the three New York-area teams, Washington, Carolina and the two teams in Florida. Both Pittsburgh and Philadelphia lobbied to stay in the same division - which would require splitting someone else up in the geography. Of course, that's precisely what happened, as the NHL approved realignment ended up with 14 teams in the East - the current alignment minus Detroit in the Atlantic and Columbus in the Metro. And when the NHLPA refused to approve the realignment, we ended up with the current alignment with Detroit and Columbus in the East.
No, the NHL put the Florida teams in the "northern" division because the compact "Patrick" division had no room a the inn.

To re-iterate....The reason for the present alignment is time zones....not time of travel. Time zones matter because of local TV exposure when a team is on the road. It would make NO sense, for example, for Dallas to be in a division with LAK, ANA, ARZ and VGK. Every division road game starts at 9:00 Dallas time. It makes it difficult for fans who are not completely immersed in hockey culture to stay connected to the team. The other reason for the present alignment is traditional rivalries. For example, even though Detroit as a city is near Chicago, and not far from Minneapolis, Detroit's fans are much more closely in tune with hating the Leafs. Thus, it makes better sense for local revenue to have the Wings play the Leafs more often.

Putting those things together:

Time Zones:
If COL/ARZ are in the Central: Arizona is inconvenienced for its local TV fans when they are on the road. I'm not sure how big a deal this actually is. The extra games in PTZ for Central teams would be few enough that it wouldn't matter. Except that playoff travel has the potential to become worse here.
If EDM/CGY are in the Central, everything is good for start times for everyone.

Rivals:
If COL/ARZ move to the Central, then the ARZ fans have to start all over hating someone. This could be a difficult situation, right after they have begun to improve, and perhaps even made a playoff round or tow.
If EDM/CGY move, then they lose Vancouver, but they gain Winnipeg. Calgary fans, I know, much prefer Vancouver.

That's the equation. Has been from the time the Seattle thing started until now. It won't change.

I can make this simple: moving the Coyotes creates an issue for the first and last month of the regular season, and moreso specifically with respect to playoffs. Unless the Coyotes meet up with the Avs in any round, every Coyotes non-wild card, divisional round will have a two-timezone span. It's the precise reason why the playoffs were updated in the first place. There could potentially be two first round Western Conference matchups where teams are based two time zones apart instead of one.

All this to keep Calgary and Edmonton with Vancouver? And possibly Seattle?

 

[Melrose Munch]

No, the NHL put the Florida teams in the "northern" division because the compact "Patrick" division had no room a the inn.

At one time there was a report at the beginning of realignment scenarios in 2011 that had Pittsburgh and Philadelphia in separate divisions - the Flyers would have been with the three New York-area teams, Washington, Carolina and the two teams in Florida. Both Pittsburgh and Philadelphia lobbied to stay in the same division - which would require splitting someone else up in the geography. Of course, that's precisely what happened, as the NHL approved realignment ended up with 14 teams in the East - the current alignment minus Detroit in the Atlantic and Columbus in the Metro. And when the NHLPA refused to approve the realignment, we ended up with the current alignment with Detroit and Columbus in the East.
No, the NHL put the Florida teams in the "northern" division because the compact "Patrick" division had no room a the inn.
I can make this simple: moving the Coyotes creates an issue for the first and last month of the regular season, and moreso specifically with respect to playoffs. Unless the Coyotes meet up with the Avs in any round, every Coyotes non-wild card, divisional round will have a two-timezone span. It's the precise reason why the playoffs were updated in the first place. There could potentially be two first round Western Conference matchups where teams are based two time zones apart instead of one.

All this to keep Calgary and Edmonton with Vancouver? And possibly Seattle?

The current alignment has that flaw. Pittsburgh and Columbus should be with the Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, etc. If you look at the map, Tampa Bay and Miami should be with the BosWash teams.

 

[rojac]

The current alignment has that flaw. Pittsburgh and Columbus should be with the Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, etc. If you look at the map, Tampa Bay and Miami should be with the BosWash teams.

Because it takes a 3/4 BoG vote to approve realignment, I’ve always thought there was a good possibility that the current Metropolitan division formed a voting block and vetoed any possible alignment that didn’t have them together. Remember any NHL alignment is likely to be a compromise that 3/4 of the owners can live with.

 

[tony d]

Yeah, 2020-2021 will be when we see Seattle start play. I expect an official announcement in January or February that they're getting a team.

 

[MNNumbers]

Alignment. I think this way:
The following groups would not want to be separated:
Mon/Bos
Det/Tor/Buf/Ott
NYR/NYI/NJD
Pit/Phi

Leaving: Was, Car, Cmb, and the 2 teams in Florida.
Now, you put that together so you have 2 groups of 8.....
Columbus fits ok with Pit/Phi, and then you have Was/Car and Flo/TB. No matter which way you do that, you have groups working across each other on the map.

The thing that really messes up the possibility of a clean Eastern alignment is actually the Montreal/Boston thing. If not for that:

Great Lakes: Montreal, Ott, Tor, Buf, Det, Phi, Pit, Cmb
Atlantic: Bos, NYR, NYI, NJD, Was, Car, Tb, Flo

And, economically, that would work just fine.

Working from that as a start, you could swap Bos for Phi, and leave the names the same, and it also works, but Pit and Phil were strongly against anything that split them up.

So, the result is that it ends up the way it is, because Columbus, Carolina, and Washington want to be as close as possible to their division-mates, and so Tampa and Florida end up out in the cold.

 

[gstommylee]

Yeah, 2020-2021 will be when we see Seattle start play. I expect an official announcement in January or February that they're getting a team.

Announcement is coming in December. NHL is not going to hold back the vote after a positive recommendation by the exec committee. An announcement in January or February delays the start of construction which will put the team back a year that is not going to happen.

 

[MNNumbers]

Announcement is coming in December. NHL is not going to hold back the vote after a positive recommendation by the exec committee. An announcement in January or February delays the start of construction which will put the team back a year that is not going to happen.

I thought construction was already started.

 

[gstommylee]

I thought construction was already started.

Pre-demolition is going on. Full demo won't happen until team is awarded. There is a lot of work to do before demolition can even begin.

 

[canuckfan75]

Victor Di Bonus is a huge hire for Seattle. Really good with the business deals

 

[gstommylee]

Victor Di Bonus is a huge hire for Seattle. Really good with the business deals

That is the intent by Seattle is to get this done right with FO and what not.