Speculation: New Arena/Management Update

[MIGs Dog]

The problem is that those light rail extensions and lines only serve a very limited portion of the metro population

True, but the rail lines are expanding, and when you use one you don't necessarily take it end to end. I went to a game at Fenway once. We drove from outside the city to a parking lot where we dropped the car and hopped on the train which delivered us very close to the stadium. The trains don't necessarily eliminate car travel, but reduce the number of cars driving to the stadium.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I did not wanted to post this, because it had not that much to do with hockey, but i simply don't get it that some people are against subways or stuff like that.

In Arizona, it's because of taxes and the citizens' utter loathing thereof. Not to mention that building a truly competent metro system in greater Phoenix would take at least a decade and would badly disrupt the metro area (see Boston's "Big Dig," but on a much larger scale). So most people (not me) feel like it'd be a waste of time, money, and effort.

I even made up my mind about creating a subway system for phoenix (yeah i have a lot of time at the moment, university starts again in february).
View attachment 175383

Very similar to some sketches I have made over the past 30-some years (although the central station would be closer to downtown proper and some of the routing would be different). Mine were based on how the Boston and Washington metro networks are laid out but they follow the same hub-and-spoke pattern.

I had to driven to the next city to catch my train [7:30 (managed by the worst company ever, the Deutsche Bahn)] and then get in a subway and drive for 7 minutes to my high school (Bielefeld). I liked it, better than being in traffic all the time. And the subway was very clean, and shiny. Bielefeld developed their own trains.

Anyone who's ever used a good metro system loves the efficiency and convenience. I've used metro systems in Boston, Washington, D.C., Mexico City, and Moscow, and all of them were enormous time-savers (although the Moscow system was so overloaded that it wasn't nearly as pleasant as the other three to use). Particularly in Boston - I lived in New Hampshire and simply drove to the metro station just over the border from Nashua, parked for the day, and took the train in to my job, or to Fenway for a Sox game, or downtown for sightseeing. My wife would take it every week to go into the city with my then-toddler daughters to see the sights. It was fantastic.

There are so many easy ways to build a subway-system.

Unfortunately, not here. The most basic problem is that the ground is simply too hard to easily tunnel a metro system - it'd cost a lot of money to go underground. The alternate option would be to do an elevated train/monorail system (cue Simpsons gag here), which, if solar powered, could be an interesting green alternative - but I don't know whether any metro cities have an appetite to have something like that running through their towns.

Hmm the quatar football stadiums are open and they installed a coling device that keeps the cold air inside somehow.
And also that open roof would be more for late night games in the summer or concerts or other events.
just an idea.

Football stadiums are significantly different than ice hockey arenas. We have two convertible-roof stadiums already in Arizona - Chase Field and State Farm Stadium - and both have massive air-conditioning systems to help keep the fans relatively cool. But the coolest they get with the roofs open is around 78-80 degrees Fahrenheit; in contrast, a hockey arena needs to be in the low 60s to keep the ice at a manageable temperature and consistency for gameplay. We already get complaints from teams around the league that we have some of the worst ice in the NHL because we have problems keeping the arena cool enough (although I'm sure our ice plant is partially to blame for that as well).

It's an interesting idea if someone could get it to work, but we don't have Qatar's budget...

 

[The Feckless Puck]

True, but the rail lines are expanding, and when you use one you don't necessarily take it end to end. I went to a game at Fenway once. We drove from outside the city to a parking lot where we dropped the car and hopped on the train which delivered us very close to the stadium. The trains don't necessarily eliminate car travel, but reduce the number of cars driving to the stadium.

I did the same in Boston, and it worked great. But if I have to drive from Peoria to downtown Phoenix just to catch light rail, then how much time and effort do I save? It'd be like driving from Mesa to Metrocenter in order to catch a ride to Westgate - it's just not enough of an incentive. There'd need to be a mix of commuter rail from the outlying suburbs to connect to the light rail system (a la Utah's FrontRunner trains, which I must say are really amazingly cool and work fantastically).

 

[MIGs Dog]

I did the same in Boston, and it worked great. But if I have to drive from Peoria to downtown Phoenix just to catch light rail, then how much time and effort do I save? It'd be like driving from Mesa to Metrocenter in order to catch a ride to Westgate - it's just not enough of an incentive. There'd need to be a mix of commuter rail from the outlying suburbs to connect to the light rail system (a la Utah's FrontRunner trains, which I must say are really amazingly cool and work fantastically).

Right...it's a process. Gonna take time. Also possible that autonomous cars will become ubiquitous enough to reduce traffic congestion and the monotony of driving across the city. That might squash future rail plans.

 

[Art.Vandelay]

If it’s on the Rez, they should embrace that culture as much as humanly possible.

Did they do anything like this at Salt River Fields?

 

[LAIslanderFan]

I did the same in Boston, and it worked great. But if I have to drive from Peoria to downtown Phoenix just to catch light rail, then how much time and effort do I save? It'd be like driving from Mesa to Metrocenter in order to catch a ride to Westgate - it's just not enough of an incentive. There'd need to be a mix of commuter rail from the outlying suburbs to connect to the light rail system (a la Utah's FrontRunner trains, which I must say are really amazingly cool and work fantastically).

Thought I'd chime in. I have a house in Surprise, and when I go into Phoenix proper, I like to
park my car at the 19th and Montebello station and take the light rail in. I've done that for Dback games
as well as a Comic Convention at the convention center last may. It will help you avoid downtown traffic and also saves you the stress of looking for parking.
By the way, side note, they wanted to extend the light rail to downtown Glendale, but the dopes
in the Glendale City Council voted it down. That will put a plug on any chances the light rail makes it
out to the west valley.

 

[Sinurgy]

I think most people are ok with higher taxes for infrastructure, the problem is the complete breakdown in our social trust contracts. No one trusts those in charge to do what they claim they will much less do it with even a modicum of efficiency.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Will the new overlords bring Tim Hortons back?

ick

 

[Bonsai Tree]

In Arizona, it's because of taxes and the citizens' utter loathing thereof. Not to mention that building a truly competent metro system in greater Phoenix would take at least a decade and would badly disrupt the metro area (see Boston's "Big Dig," but on a much larger scale). So most people (not me) feel like it'd be a waste of time, money, and effort.



Very similar to some sketches I have made over the past 30-some years (although the central station would be closer to downtown proper and some of the routing would be different). Mine were based on how the Boston and Washington metro networks are laid out but they follow the same hub-and-spoke pattern.



Anyone who's ever used a good metro system loves the efficiency and convenience. I've used metro systems in Boston, Washington, D.C., Mexico City, and Moscow, and all of them were enormous time-savers (although the Moscow system was so overloaded that it wasn't nearly as pleasant as the other three to use). Particularly in Boston - I lived in New Hampshire and simply drove to the metro station just over the border from Nashua, parked for the day, and took the train in to my job, or to Fenway for a Sox game, or downtown for sightseeing. My wife would take it every week to go into the city with my then-toddler daughters to see the sights. It was fantastic.



Unfortunately, not here. The most basic problem is that the ground is simply too hard to easily tunnel a metro system - it'd cost a lot of money to go underground. The alternate option would be to do an elevated train/monorail system (cue Simpsons gag here), which, if solar powered, could be an interesting green alternative - but I don't know whether any metro cities have an appetite to have something like that running through their towns.



Football stadiums are significantly different than ice hockey arenas. We have two convertible-roof stadiums already in Arizona - Chase Field and State Farm Stadium - and both have massive air-conditioning systems to help keep the fans relatively cool. But the coolest they get with the roofs open is around 78-80 degrees Fahrenheit; in contrast, a hockey arena needs to be in the low 60s to keep the ice at a manageable temperature and consistency for gameplay. We already get complaints from teams around the league that we have some of the worst ice in the NHL because we have problems keeping the arena cool enough (although I'm sure our ice plant is partially to blame for that as well).

It's an interesting idea if someone could get it to work, but we don't have Qatar's budget...

The ring line is a sight to see. Museums for stations. Also, have you ever seen steeper, faster escalators than in Moscow?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

The future of metro transportation is above, not below. An automated air car control would require less infrastructure than a subway, requiring landing stations and communication towers. The technology is a few decades away, but in order to quadruple (at least) the metro transportation capacity you have to go up, not down.

 

[lanky]

As soon as you take control away from the drivers, with their questionable decisions, delayed reactions and limited ability to communicate with other vehicles, then capacity of the roads goes way up.

 

[Jakey53]

I think most people are ok with higher taxes for infrastructure, the problem is the complete breakdown in our social trust contracts. No one trusts those in charge to do what they claim they will much less do it with even a modicum of efficiency.

The governments take enough taxes already. They want everyone else to cut back, but themselves. Complete breakdown in trust is saying it lightly. People complain about the elected, but we are the dumb a---- who vote them in. Mind you, when you only have dumb and dumber to vote for causes a problem.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Also, have you ever seen steeper, faster escalators than in Moscow?

Nope - although there were a couple of escalators in DC that gave me a little bit of the vertigo I felt in Russia. But in Moscow, you feel like you're headed on the fast track into the bowels of hell. And I don't know if they have upgraded since I was there, but that impression didn't go away once you got on the car and got stuck in standing-room-only with a factory worker with Jurassic-era B.O.

The future of metro transportation is above, not below. An automated air car control would require less infrastructure than a subway, requiring landing stations and communication towers. The technology is a few decades away, but in order to quadruple (at least) the metro transportation capacity you have to go up, not down.

Yeah. There are a lot of practical reasons why you can't tunnel in metro Phoenix anyway, but the advent of automated taxis and self-driving cars will make intercity rail more or less obsolete. Air taxis, though, are a pipe dream - the airspace and current ATC are already so overloaded that trying to find a niche among all the general, military, and commercial aviation traffic is going to take decades at least.

 

[MIGs Dog]

As soon as you take control away from the drivers, with their questionable decisions, delayed reactions and limited ability to communicate with other vehicles, then capacity of the roads goes way up.

Since the adoption of self-driving will not occur all at once, I wonder if cities will designate "autonomous lanes."

 

[Tom Polakis]

The future of metro transportation is above, not below. An automated air car control would require less infrastructure than a subway, requiring landing stations and communication towers. The technology is a few decades away, but in order to quadruple (at least) the metro transportation capacity you have to go up, not down.

Maybe so. The gap in the plot is narrowing.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Since the adoption of self-driving will not occur all at once, I wonder if cities will designate "autonomous lanes."

Wouldn't be surprised to see them incentivize HOV lanes that way.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Maybe so. The gap in the plot is narrowing.

Just because you don't have one doesn't mean they are not here.

On a serious note, current technology allows hundreds of drones to fly in very tight patterns, even crossing each others path, without colliding. This could remove one of the big safety fears around flying cars that they are very dangerous. If the flying car was also autonomous, much of the crash likelihood could be removed.

I still don't see wide adoption due to cost, but the technology exists to implement them today. All you need now is the government to allow them.

Cool video demonstrates "barrier certificates"

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Cool video demonstrates "barrier certificates"

One pictures that's sorta how flocks of birds work...which makes one wonder if birds ever mess with each other while migrating "hey, Chirpie, check this out; watch what happens when I take the air off of Mr. Feathers' wing"...

 

[DaBadGuy7]

Not that this is relevant to the Coyotes, but Suns get their arena renovations deal:

 

[rt]

Not that this is relevant to the Coyotes, but Suns get their arena renovations deal:

Dumb. Shoulda thrown em out.

 

[RABBIT]

I love how their ownership and relocation woes lasted like 2 seconds and ours like 12 years and counting

 

[Scott MS]

Suns renovations deal was approved and I see that as a good thing for the Coyotes because the Suns will stay downtown. Sarver was never going to share an arena with the Coyotes.

The Coyotes need to work with Talking Stick and build an arena by Salt River Fields and the Talking Stick Resort. That entire area is continuing to grow as an entertainment district. Build an arena across from the hotel and attract the entire Scottsdale crowd.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The Coyotes need to work with Talking Stick and build an arena by Salt River Fields and the Talking Stick Resort. That entire area is continuing to grow as an entertainment district. Build an arena across from the hotel and attract the entire Scottsdale crowd.

I've been saying this for (*checks calendar*) actual years now. From what I understand, this actually had a brief chance of happening, but negotiations fell through because of some sort of subsidy ask (don't recall who asked for it - the team, or the tribal family that owns that section of the reservation) that the Indian Authority turned down. So right now the focus is on the southern Scottsdale corridor by Tempe. Far less ideal, IMO, and a lot farther away from the money and amenities everyone attaches to Scottsdale, but still in the East Valley. We'll see if anything comes of it - the rumored negotiations that started this thread in the first place have either not gone anywhere or aren't progressed enough to report on.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I've been saying this for (*checks calendar*) actual years now. From what I understand, this actually had a brief chance of happening, but negotiations fell through because of some sort of subsidy ask (don't recall who asked for it - the team, or the tribal family that owns that section of the reservation) that the Indian Authority turned down. So right now the focus is on the southern Scottsdale corridor by Tempe. Far less ideal, IMO, and a lot farther away from the money and amenities everyone attaches to Scottsdale, but still in the East Valley. We'll see if anything comes of it - the rumored negotiations that started this thread in the first place have either not gone anywhere or aren't progressed enough to report on.

Or hopefully both sides understand what has happened in the past announcing things before they have happened. I feel like this ownership group is much more professional, and once there is news to report the will. I think if what started this fell through we would know about it by now. I'm going with no news is good news.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Or hopefully both sides understand what has happened in the past announcing things before they have happened. I feel like this ownership group is much more professional, and once there is news to report the will. I think if what started this fell through we would know about it by now. I'm going with no news is good news.

I understand why you might feel that way about the theorized new ownership group - but does anyone really know anything about them at all, other than a hint that Shane Doan is somehow involved? The only halfway credible intel I have heard to date is that there have been several attempts to do something on tribal land plots with various tribal groups, and that none of those proposals were 100% privately financed. I've also heard that the subsidy ask (via either public money or Indian Authority financing) is what has crippled or killed the prior negotiations. Other than that, I'm completely in the dark about what might be going on.

I think that we could say that they're more professional than IceArizona was, but that's a pretty low bar.