Ncaa Vs Chl

[Funkymoses]

Another thing I dont understand is that if someone puts up big totals in the NCAA it doesnt matter their size (Mike Cammalleri, Paul Kariya) and in the CHL if ur under 5"10 your labelled a CHL scorer and you are said to be going now where...

Well...
a) big numbers in junior don't mean as much as big numbers in the NCAA. There's more scoring in juniors and much less emphasis on defense.
b) players putting up big numbers in their freshman year (the only year most NCAA kids will be draft eligible) are doing it against players who are older, bigger, and stronger than them. Small players in the OHL aren't fighting those odds as much.
c) there have been plenty of big NCAA scorers who've been drafted quite low. Comrie tore it up as a freshman... 3rd rounder.

I said kessel made a cowardly choice. I never called him a coward.

And there's such a huge world of difference there.
What, exactly, is cowardly about playing on the U18 team next year, accelerating his schooling, and then playing against better competition in a league where his opponents will be on average 3 years older than him? I think the coward's way out would be to skip off to the no-D glorified 14-year-old boy's rec league that is the CHL.

 

[VOB]

And there's such a huge world of difference there.
What, exactly, is cowardly about playing on the U18 team next year, accelerating his schooling, and then playing against better competition in a league where his opponents will be on average 3 years older than him? I think the coward's way out would be to skip off to the no-D glorified 14-year-old boy's rec league that is the CHL.

Ahh spoken like a true myopic U.S.college hockey fan if I do say so myself!

That no D glorified 14 year old rec league consistantly produces more NHL players and stars than the "bigger tougher MANLY" NCAA.

As for the bigger and tougher, well thats the CHL not the NCAA.

Tell me Funky, what is the difference in a 16 year old player playing in a prime NHL developmental league against players two, three and four years older than he is, many of whom will soon be in the AHL/NHL as opposed to an 18 year old college freshman who is playing against players two, three and four years older than him but where not as many will soon be in the NHL/AHL and where the really good players leave after two season's anyway in order to keep pace with their CHL counterparts who are now in the widely superior AHL? You of course know all about this since Michigan loses one or two good players ever year, just like they will lose Montoya this year (yeah yeah I know I know funky, big RED says he'll come back...just like Comrie, Cammalleri, Jillson and everybody else....just like Danny Richmond who you swore and up and down last year, after calling me some heretic moron, that the son of an alumni would never leave the cherished program of Michigan to play in that no D glorifed 14 year old boy rec league....right funky?).

 

[stockwizard*]

I think the coward's way out would be to skip off to the no-D glorified 14-year-old boy's rec league that is the CHL.

This statement is beyond dumb.
I didn't know 14 year old's were playing Major Junior. Perhaps you could clarify this.

 

[chaachie12]

I said kessel made a cowardly choice. I never called him a coward.
I thought he was supposed to be supremely talented for a 16 year old. Crosby would never waste time in College.
Why not save that spot for someone who intends on finishing their degree?

well, now I know you just like the conflict...

I am done. You are wrong, and you know it, now you are just trying to push buttons. Pathetic really.

 

[Funkymoses]

I would also like to add that Canada is a country that is smelly and cold. No one likes it.

...I guess you guys can't take a joke.

VOB, I've never maintained that the CHL isn't a fine place to play. I just think that the chances of any one player making the NHL are 95% up to the player. Any small differences in the quality of program, practice time, games played, and coaching between the CHL and NCAA are insignificant, really. A player who will make the league will almost assuredly do so no matter which route he takes. So it's a matter of personal preference for the kid. The CHL will get theirs, the NCAA will get theirs. Some kids would like to sit on a bus driving across Canada, others would like to go to a nice college at 18 instead of 20 or 21.

You're the one always proclaiming the imminent plummeting of NCAA talent levels, but the first rounders keep on coming. How long have these magical OHL education packages been in place? They don't seem to be keeping talented players away from the NCAA. Maybe you should make them bigger.

Regarding Richmond: I was happy to see him sabotaging some other team's chances in the playoffs. I didn't think he was the type to cut and run because someone wanted him to play defense, but I guess I was wrong. London's loss.

I swear, one bad word about precious canadian hockey tradition and you guys go running for the rifles, flags, and anthems. You guys don't have to worry about the poor old NCAA taking all your good players, there will always be agents giving bad advice to kids.

 

[stockwizard*]

well, now I know you just like the conflict...

I am done. You are wrong, and you know it, now you are just trying to push buttons. Pathetic really.

I don't like conflict. What am I wrong about? It should be obvious to all that the CHL is the place to be if you are a supremely talented 16 year old. I thought most americans already knew this.

It is truly unique to have a pro style league available for 16 year olds. I don't know if they have this for any other sport.

Education is much more expensive in the U.S., but the quality of education in the U.S. and Canada are pretty similar. Most of the Americans can get scholarships to play University hockey in Canada if they are not drafted.

If I was trying to somehow protect Canada I would be saying the Americans should stay away from the CHL so more spots are available for Canadians. I am trying to give the Americans some helpful advice.

 

[VOB]

You're the one always proclaiming the imminent plummeting of NCAA talent levels, but the first rounders keep on coming. How long have these magical OHL education packages been in place? They don't seem to be keeping talented players away from the NCAA. Maybe you should make them bigger.
.

The OHL education packages became standard in 1998. They don't have to make them any bigger because there aren't a whole lot of kids in Ontario serously considering the NCAA anymore. The number of talented Americans taking the NCAA route is growing every year and will continue to do so.

Oh here is a little tidbit on Kessel Funky. Saginaw has not yet started their push for him, Mancini hasn't even talked to him yet. They will be sitting down with him in a week or so and will offer him more than just the standard OHL education package(if you know what I mean.) It may be an uphill battle to get him but those that I've talked to in the Saginaw orginization like their chances.

 

[college hockey]

I don't like conflict. What am I wrong about? It should be obvious to all that the CHL is the place to be if you are a supremely talented 16 year old. I thought most americans already knew this.

It is truly unique to have a pro style league available for 16 year olds. I don't know if they have this for any other sport.

Education is much more expensive in the U.S., but the quality of education in the U.S. and Canada are pretty similar. Most of the Americans can get scholarships to play University hockey in Canada if they are not drafted.

If I was trying to somehow protect Canada I would be saying the Americans should stay away from the CHL so more spots are available for Canadians. I am trying to give the Americans some helpful advice.

And how many supremely talented 16 year olds are out there other than Crosby? Why would a US kid want a scholarship to play hockey at a University in Canada...they might as well play in a beer league it's the same competition.

 

[stockwizard*]

And how many supremely talented 16 year olds are out there other than Crosby? Why would a US kid want a scholarship to play hockey at a University in Canada...they might as well play in a beer league it's the same competition.

So, I've got Americans insulting the caliber of play in the CHL and now the CIS. I never said the caliber of play in the CIS was so high, but many of you were so concerned about Education. To call it a beer league is ignorant.

If the NCAA is so great can anyone answer me why year after year CHL players dominate the NHL draft?

 

[college hockey]

So, I've got Americans insulting the caliber of play in the CHL and now the CIS. I never said the caliber of play in the CIS was so high, but many of you were so concerned about Education. To call it a beer league is ignorant.

If the NCAA is so great can anyone answer me why year after year CHL players dominate the NHL draft?

I personally have never insulted the caliber of play in the CHL and never will. Both the CHL and the NCAA are great leagues for what they do and both are successful. But the CIS is nothing more than a goon and a beer league. I'm a Maine fan who has seen most Maine games home and away the past 15 years and have been a fan 20+ years and have seen my fair share of CIS teams play against them. 6 or 7 years ago Maine played Acadia both were the number one teams in their respective countries at the time and Maine beat them 6-1 and it wasn't even that close. The only CIS team i've seen that wasn't a goon squad and had some skill was UNB 2 years ago,but for the most part they are washed up never were's who goon it up. I'm far from ignorant when it comes to college hockey and the CHL,but you seem to be.

 

[stockwizard*]

I personally have never insulted the caliber of play in the CHL and never will. Both the CHL and the NCAA are great leagues for what they do and both are successful. But the CIS is nothing more than a goon and a beer league. I'm a Maine fan who has seen most Maine games home and away the past 15 years and have been a fan 20+ years and have seen my fair share of CIS teams play against them. 6 or 7 years ago Maine played Acadia both were the number one teams in their respective countries at the time and Maine beat them 6-1 and it wasn't even that close. The only CIS team i've seen that wasn't a goon squad and had some skill was UNB 2 years ago,but for the most part they are washed up never were's who goon it up. I'm far from ignorant when it comes to college hockey and the CHL,but you seem to be.

Why am I ignorant? Because I don't think the CIS is a beer league. I never said it was better than NCAA. Most leagues in Canada has a lot of goonery including the CHL.

Obviously most of the talent in Canada goes to the CHL then goes to AHL and NHL. I don't know how many players from the CIS go on to the NHL, but I suspect it is very few. Most of the players there are just happy to get a free education. It is a pretty good worst case scenario though to play CIS if you are not drafted or don't play in Europe once your CHL career is over.

 

[college hockey]

Why am I ignorant? Because I don't think the CIS is a beer league. I never said it was better than NCAA. Most leagues in Canada has a lot of goonery including the CHL.

Obviously most of the talent in Canada goes to the CHL then goes to AHL and NHL. I don't know how many players from the CIS go on to the NHL, but I suspect it is very few. Most of the players there are just happy to get a free education. It is a pretty good worst case scenario though to play CIS if you are not drafted or don't play in Europe once your CHL career is over.

From what I've seen most of the washed up CHL players and never were's play in the CIS. Most of there rosters are 23-27 year olds who like to goon it up which is the same as a beer league. I'm sure they are happy to get a free education and I wouldn't blame them.
As far as the ignorance thing you're probably not,but you seem to be a little blind when it comes to the NCAA. Sure the CHL puts out more players,but the NCAA has put out their share of quality players in the last 15 years and I could give you a list if you'd like.
But as i said in the previous post both serve their purpose. The CHL is more game oriented and the NCAA has on general 5 practices a week plus 2 games and school. The NCAA has many more late bloomers than the CHL for sure,but has plenty of young talent as well and they are not all american kids. As I said I won't knock th CHL and I enjoy watching the Q team in Maine because I like all hockey,but you're the one who has been selling the NCAA short.

 

[chaachie12]

Why am I ignorant?

go back and re-read all your posts...it will become quite clear...

and why does the CHL "dominate" the draft? There are more canadian hockey players, no one is questioning that...doesn't mean anything about level of talent....

 

[stockwizard*]

From what I've seen most of the washed up CHL players and never were's play in the CIS. Most of there rosters are 23-27 year olds who like to goon it up which is the same as a beer league. I'm sure they are happy to get a free education and I wouldn't blame them.
As far as the ignorance thing you're probably not,but you seem to be a little blind when it comes to the NCAA. Sure the CHL puts out more players,but the NCAA has put out their share of quality players in the last 15 years and I could give you a list if you'd like.
But as i said in the previous post both serve their purpose. The CHL is more game oriented and the NCAA has on general 5 practices a week plus 2 games and school. The NCAA has many more late bloomers than the CHL for sure,but has plenty of young talent as well and they are not all american kids. As I said I won't knock th CHL and I enjoy watching the Q team in Maine because I like all hockey,but you're the one who has been selling the NCAA short.

Obviously if a player isn't ready to play Major Junior at the age of 16 or 17, the NCAA is a good alternative if someone is offered a scholarship.

And it is definetely true that players mature at different rates.
One guy might peak at 17, another might not come into his own until he is 21.

My whole point is if you are serious about making the NHL, and you have a very high skill level at a young age, like Kessel is supposed to, the CHL is the best choice.

I am not saying the NCAA skill level is weak, and believe me, life in the CHL is not easy. It is cut throat and kids are willing to do whatever it takes to get drafted. That is why there are so many fights. If a player has just average skill and scouts aren't paying much attention, if he suddenly develops a mean streak and shows he can fight he will suddenly appear on scouts radar screen.

You will notice with CHL players that they are super mature for their age.
I cannot think of any league in the world with a 16-20 age range that has a higher skill level.

 

[stockwizard*]

go back and re-read all your posts...it will become quite clear...

and why does the CHL "dominate" the draft? There are more canadian hockey players, no one is questioning that...doesn't mean anything about level of talent....

What are you talking about? Are you saying Canadians have a God given right to be drafted?
They are drafted not because they are Canadian, it is because for their age they are supremely talented. Like I said the average 18 year old in CHL is much greater than the average 18 year old in NCAA.
You think scouts and GM's say "well this guy is Canadian we better draft him!"

 

[college hockey]

My whole point is if you are serious about making the NHL, and you have a very high skill level at a young age, like Kessel is supposed to, the CHL is the best choice.

Kariya had a high skill level at that point and the NCAA hurt him how?

 

[stockwizard*]

Kariya had a high skill level at that point and the NCAA hurt him how?

It probably didn't slow him down, but since we can't go back in time and put him in the CHL instead I guess we will never know.

I'm well aware there has been some young talent to come out of the NCAA.

Why do you say the University of NB was skilled? Did they beat an NCAA team?

 

[college hockey]

It probably didn't slow him down, but since we can't go back in time and put him in the CHL instead I guess we will never know.

I'm well aware there has been some young talent to come out of the NCAA.

Why do you say the University of NB was skilled? Did they beat an NCAA team?

My point if a kid is skilled he'll thrive at any level. Kariya would have dominated at any level CHL and NCAA as would a player like Crosby etc. It doesn't really matter when a player is that skilled they will own whatever league they are in. I'm not sure if UNB beat any NCAA teams,but I've seen many CIS teams come through Maine. Dalhousie,Acadia,UNB,Alberta, etc and that was the best CIS team i've seen they actually played the game and were very competitive. They lost 2-1 yet held there own and didn't try any chep stuff.

 

[stockwizard*]

My point if a kid is skilled he'll thrive at any level. Kariya would have dominated at any level CHL and NCAA as would a player like Crosby etc. It doesn't really matter when a player is that skilled they will own whatever league they are in. I'm not sure if UNB beat any NCAA teams,but I've seen many CIS teams come through Maine. Dalhousie,Acadia,UNB,Alberta, etc and that was the best CIS team i've seen they actually played the game and were very competitive. They lost 2-1 yet held there own and didn't try any chep stuff.

I think you are partially right.
If you are that skilled at a young age you will eventually find your way to the NHL. It will take longer though. I guy like Parise still isn't in the NHL because he stunted his development playing three years at Shattuck.

 

[college hockey]

I think you are partially right.
If you are that skilled at a young age you will eventually find your way to the NHL. It will take longer though. Parise still isn't in the NHL and Kariya didn't play until he was 21.

Kariya didn't play until he was 20 because he played for th Olympic team the year before. When he was 21 he had 50 goals in the NHL. Parise is 20 I think and isn't even in the same stratosphere that Kariya was at that point.

 

[stockwizard*]

Kariya didn't play until he was 20 because he played for th Olympic team the year before. When he was 21 he had 50 goals in the NHL. Parise is 20 I think and isn't even in the same stratosphere that Kariya was at that point.

Yeah, I edited Kariya out because it was a bad example.
Parise after his first year at Shattuck as a 16 year old was clearly one of the best players. To me it would have made alot more sense for him to go to the CHL at this point.

Crosby had well over 160 points as a 15 year old at Shattuck, and the next best guy on the team was a grade twelve student with around 110. IMO Parise should have made the same decision Crosby did. Had he done this he would probably be in the NHL right now.

 

[VOB]

From what I've seen most of the washed up CHL players and never were's play in the CIS. Most of there rosters are 23-27 year olds who like to goon it up which is the same as a beer league. I'm sure they are happy to get a free education and I wouldn't blame them.
.

Actually the CIS has made major strides in the past five years. While it still is not on par with the NCAA, it is improving, as you are probably aware of after witnessing Maine's hard fought win against UNB two seasons ago.

The reason for their improvement is simple, more CHL players are deciding to take that option for a few years rather than embark immediately on a pro career. While there are not many players jumping to the NHL yet, there are quite a few who are begining to land AHL and European contracts.

Teams from out east, such UNB and St Francis X and from out west, such Alberta, can now more than hold their own against NCAA teams without "gooning it up".

 

[chaachie12]

What are you talking about? Are you saying Canadians have a God given right to be drafted?
They are drafted not because they are Canadian, it is because for their age they are supremely talented. Like I said the average 18 year old in CHL is much greater than the average 18 year old in NCAA.
You think scouts and GM's say "well this guy is Canadian we better draft him!"

it's called math there genius...

100 Canadians
25 Americans

125 Draft picks...which country is going to have more draft picks? Maybe the education levels aren't that close after all.... :lol

 

[VOB]

it's called math there genius...

100 Canadians
25 Americans

125 Draft picks...which country is going to have more draft picks? Maybe the education levels aren't that close after all.... :lol

Not quite sure where you came up with those numbers. In this year's draft there were 125 players taken from Canada and 64 from the U.S.

By your resoning, since most Canadians do tend to play in the CHL, then doesn't that say something about the talent level in the CHL?

 

[MN_Gopher]

Zack Parise played for Andy Murray an NHL coach, and for Dean Blais a future NHL coach. Think of all knowlege and skill and intangebles he got from those two. I doubt that hurt his devolpment too much.

And my points about stats. I know the NCAA players are older, some by 3-4 years. So when u look back at a guy like Zack Parise,(I know my WCHA so i will continue to use them) Paul Martin held his own for the most part in NJ. Played against Parise when he was a fresh. Parise shot on Wade Dooby who led the AHL in goaltending. Parise goes up against Tom Pressing. Noah Clarke top 3 scorer in AHL as a rookie. And list goes on of guys who had success in the next level of play after the NCAA. Parise was a dominant player when he was just 18. Not 23 like the others. So when i compare stats and players some are older and it should be obvious that they are having more success early in their next years of hockey. But when the draft age guys are doing it too. They should not be punished for putting up less points against better players. Parise plays in the CHL i bet he goes over 100pts and goes 5-10. Instead he falls IMO based partly on size and low points. Even though he was in a tougher league.
My basic point is that NCAA seniors are better equiped to play AHL or NHL. So when they play against fresh, the fresh get better looks. So draft age NCAA players who hold there own should get more respect than CHL players who old their own against people their same age.
The CHL has better talent, top to bottom. Canada puts out way more players than the US. In general when the ages all cycle to each other CHL players are better, plus there are more. But at the same point in the carees( not age) when they play CHL and NCAA. The NCAA is tougher.