Ncaa Vs Chl

Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by ktownhockey, Jul 7, 2004.

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  1. ktownhockey

    ktownhockey Registered User

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    I have been looking over statistics and draft positions in the last few years and to me it seems NCAA players are getting too much recognition.

    I believe its a more mature offensive brand of hockey, that is very competitive and exciting, but I do not feel that players should be getting drafted out of the NCAA nearly as much as they are.

    Here's my reasoning. For example a player such as Martin St Pierre (guelph storm) who put up an incredible amount of points in the OHL in his 4 years in th league was never drafted. Also look at Eric Himmelfarb not highly touted bu OHL standards but signs a free agent deal with Detroit and finishes the season in Grand rapids. Also the biggest example of all Nathan Robinson whom I know personally and is and has always been an amazing player. He led the OHL in scoring in the 2002-2003 season and in years previous he was not given any recognition when draft day came around (he was eligble starting 2000 draft).

    My point being that out of these three guys 2 of them played Junior A St.Pierre as a 16 year old and recorded 75 points, and Robinson as a 14/15, and 15/16 year old and he had 35 + goals in his rookie season if I can remember correctly. Either way if these guys would have decided on an NCAA scholarship they would have went to the "big" name schools ie Michigan, Wisconsin, Maine etc and they would have been looked at with scouts from all teams because they are older, and usually NCAA palyers get drafted at a later age due to the old rules.

    This makes no sense to me why guys under 5"10 who do very well in the OHL but by no means dominate it are not even getting considered to be drafted to the NHL and I see guys coming out of NCAA getting drafted that couldnt even play in the same rink as these guys growing up.

    It just goes to show that a scout wants to see maturity I guess. Lets draft a 20 year old who's 6"1 from the NCAA who has scored 6 goals.

    Smaller OHL players should be given a better chance to be drafted to the NHL.

    The NCAA is a great league but I feel that so many players playing on even the second lines in the OHL would up their draft status simply if they played in the NCAA... just my opinion (sorry this is so long) lol

    thanks ktownhockey

    I want feedback... :eek:
     
  2. LaLaLaprise

    LaLaLaprise lalalaprise -twitter

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    You also need to take into account drafting CHLers means youll need to sign them in 2 years. NCAA players or USHS players you can have them develop for 5-6 years no problem.

    Example: Draft a kid out of USHS, then track his progress through 4 years of NCAA hockey. You then get to sign him at an older age when he is more developed and less of a risk.
     
  3. degroat*

    degroat* Guest

    The players that get drafted are getting drafted because teams see something in them that they feel would translate into an NHL player and they don't see those things in your buddy [and the other examples you used] that didn't get drafted.

    And, if we're using stats again then Ovechkin shouldn't have been drafted #1.
     
  4. Douggy

    Douggy Registered User

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    If a player is good, he will find a way to make it to the highest levels whether he is drafted or not.
     
  5. LaLaLaprise

    LaLaLaprise lalalaprise -twitter

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    If you dont think Finance is involved you are sorely mistaken.
     
  6. Chainshot

    Chainshot Give 'em Enough Rope

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    Too much? How so? In many developmental leagues there are talented players who make little or no impact as professionals. The leading scorers of all three CHL leagues have been littered with players who have found no success against bigger, faster, and often as skilled players.

    Also, more players are taking the NCAA route as a legit development stage to get to the NHL than ever before. There is a bit of a prestige factor as well for those who stick out the full 4 years and walk away with a degree at 21 rather than being in their first (or second) year of CIAU schools at the same age. Merits of various collegiate educations aside, if I was at all in doubt of my skills in becoming a well-paid professional, I wouldn't mind having a university degree to fall back on at that young an age.

    Again, why not? Teams as mentioned get to watch the development process for up to a year after a player leaves school, especially now that the Van Ryn loophole has been closed. And that financial outlay, to see if someone is going to make a good pro, is something all hockey departments have to be watching.

    And guys like Brett Seguin, Jason Firth, Brian Sakic and others who lit up the CHL have carved out careers at the lower levels but not had any real success even in the AHL (or IHL) to speak of. Perhaps its because their dominance against leagues of players who mostly don't even go on to the professional ranks isn't enough to make them viable pro's where everyone is bigger, stronger, faster, and perhaps nearly as skilled.

    So a player should be judge for his performance at 14? Or 12? Or 10? Would it be fare to judge someone in the workforce based on their performance in 6th grade as compared to how they performed last week?

    Someone in particular? Why do teams draft lunks like Jim Sandlak, Alex Stonajov, Lindsey Vallis and others out of the CHL when all they really have going for them is size....?

    OHL and CHL players have been drafted for years. Perhaps the strength of recruitment coupled with elevated levels of play AND the financial aspect of what drafting an NCAA player affords an NHL team combine to make them more attractive than they were in the past. It's also bringing more quality NCAA developed players in the NHL than ever before.

    And perhaps smaller players in general should be given more consideration for the draft. But small and slow is a deadly combo to overcome at the AHL level, let alone as an NHLer.
     
  7. degroat*

    degroat* Guest

    If it is a factor, it's such a small one that it wouldn't come into effect unless teams have two players rated exactly the same. Teams don't pass up more talented players because they'll have additional time to sign the player unless there's a reason to believe he wouldn't sign.
     
  8. LaLaLaprise

    LaLaLaprise lalalaprise -twitter

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    Like you said teams WONT pass on a much more talented player but once it gets to late stages of the draft teams wil often take the NCAA or USHS kid over a CHL player whom they could invite to camp for nothing.
     
  9. eddy

    eddy Registered User

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    Agreed. Alot of these small guys who produce big numbers in the CHL though don't get drafted usually end up getting the same chance anyway, many of them get invited to NHL camps where there given just as much of a shot as anyone else. On the other hand I think the scouts are making size to big of a deal these days and should take alonger look at some of these smaller skilled guys, leading scorer in the NHL this year is what? 5'9....with skates on.
     
  10. ktownhockey

    ktownhockey Registered User

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    Awesome

    All of these are good views and that's what I wanted everyones opinion... I just don't like that fact that these kids COULD go to the NCAA and tear it up and get more recognition but they choose the CHL and because their small they dont get drafted. Their are always exceptions to the rule.

    Look at Marty St Louis for example... if he played in the Q when he was younger he would have most likely been a leading scorer... but he waited went to the NCAA and then became a prospect... whereas the Q would have probably only got him to an overage season CIAU career or ECHL... which i dont think is right...

    I also feel that alot of American kids who go to the NCAA get higher ratings than what they really should.... I don't mean their not good or shouldn't be drafted iam just saying I see guys like a couple years ago like Steckell and he can barely play.... and then you see guys getting drafted from thr CHL in the 9th round who this Steckell kid couldnyt even play on the same ice surface with.... either way this debate is opinionative...

    I enjoy the NCAA and the CHL they are both excellent development leagues... I just don't think it'ds fair to ruin a kids confidence and maybe take away something he COULD have been because he's smaller playing in the CHL getting mass amounts of points when guys in the NCAA that are the same size.. are doing the exact same thing....
     
  11. VOB

    VOB Registered User

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    Does it really matter? In the end the player that is drafted still has to make the team. Few players who are drafted after the 3rd round make the NHL anyway.

    The CHL has and will continue to have (due to more Americans choosing that route over the NCAA) more players drafted than the NCAA regardless of finances or "over rating" college players.

    In my opinion, however, those players drafted in the first or second round tend to deserve (for the most part) being drafted so high and where they come from matters little to the teams that are drafting them.

    I do agree with La La Laprise that finances does indeed play a large role but that will soon be rectified with the new CBA.
     
  12. db23

    db23 Guest

    TSN re-rated the 1999 draft recently (5 years on). They only did a top 15, but in the original drafted top 15 there was only one NCAA player taken (Jeff Jillson #14 overall). Actually Jillson wasn't even in the NCAA at the time, but was committed to Michigan. When they re-rated the draft as to how the players turned out, there were 7 NCAA players in the top 15. With Jillson still at #14 overall. So that blows your theory all to hell.

    Also, NCAA bound players are drafted at the same age as juniors now. Blake Wheeler, who is committed to Minnesota in 2005 was the youngest player drafted this year. As for St. Louis, he was never drafted. Even after setting scoring records at the Universtity of Vermont.

    Basically, you are 0 for however many points you tried to make in this post.
     
  13. Oilers Chick

    Oilers Chick Registered User

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    Excellent post Chainshot, couldn't have said it better myself. :handclap:

    I will add that it isn't just the Minnesotas, Michigans and Boston Colleges that are getting the cream of the crop coming into the NCAA, many of the Ivies (for example) have already begun to attract some fantastic players and with lesser known but improving programs at schools such as Colgate now offering scholarships, the level of talent coming in will likely continue to grow.

    Also, if you look at many of the GMs, coaches and/or scouts around the NHL, many of them have NCAA ties as well. I know that Tim Burke, who scouts for the San Jose Sharks, is from the Boston-area and heavily scouts in that region. So it shouldn't come as much of a surprise to people that the Sharks have a good number of current and former Hockey East and ECAC players among their group of prospects.
     
  14. LaLaLaprise

    LaLaLaprise lalalaprise -twitter

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    Why dont you do it for ALL draft years instead of using a year that suits your arguement.
     
  15. db23

    db23 Guest

    That happened to be the year that TSN re-rated. Their basis is that you have to wait 5 years to see how the players pan out. If they do other draft years, I'm confident the ratio will hold up. Without even going through the details, it seems to me that there is more likelyhood of late round pick out of the NCAA surprising than a CHL player. If anything, the truth is the exact opposite of what the poster stated. NCAA products are much underrated on draft day, overall, and CHL products are much overrated on draft day overall. Euros are somewhere in between.
     
  16. LaLaLaprise

    LaLaLaprise lalalaprise -twitter

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    Ok lets do 1998:

    1. Vincent Lecavalier - CHL (QMJHL)
    2. Brad Richards - CHL (QMJHL)
    3. Alex Tanguay - CHL (QMJHL)
    4. Pavel Datsyuk - Russia
    5. Brad Stuart - CHL (WHL)
    6. Simon Gagne - CHL (QMJHL)
    7. Scott Gomez - CHL (WHL)
    8. Andrew Raycroft - CHL (OHL)
    9. Robyn Regher - CHL (WHL)
    10. Dmitiri Kalinin - Russia
    11. Michael Ryder - CHL (QMJHL)
    12. Mike Riberio - CHL (QMJHL)
    13. David Legwand - CHL (OHL)
    14. Tyler Arnason - USHL
    15. Andrei Markov - Russia

    WOW look at all those NCAA players.

    The best NCAA player would probably be Erik Cole.

    Out of the 15

    11 - CHL
    3 - Europe
    1 - USHL

    Good job db23
     
  17. db23

    db23 Guest

    I won't bother addressing "your" re-rating of the draft. You have an obvious bias as to how you want to see things. Leave it to an independant source without a giant carrot up their butt.
     
  18. LaLaLaprise

    LaLaLaprise lalalaprise -twitter

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    Ok do you own:

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1998e.html

    If you dont do one and respond back we all know that you are full of ****.
     
  19. db23

    db23 Guest

  20. LaLaLaprise

    LaLaLaprise lalalaprise -twitter

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    LOL then we all know what your take on CHL vs. NCAA is.

    Youre pathetic.
     
  21. ktownhockey

    ktownhockey Registered User

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    what are you talking about

    I don;t care about Jeff Jillson , or the 1999 draft.... my point was that smaller players who tear up the CHL don't get drafted as high as players of the same caliber in NCAA.....

    its true and you know it.....
    so your 0 for 0 as always
     
  22. db23

    db23 Guest

    I got the impression that you were saying that NCAA players are overrated compared to CHL players. The TSN thing and a look back at any draft year will show that if anything CHL players are much overated on draft day compared to NCAA players. In terms of Martin St.Louis, he was never drafted despite his success in the NCAA. Mike Comrie was a 3rd round pick. Mike York and Chris Drury were 6th rounders I think. Himelfarb was a 4th or 5th round pick by Montreal, but he never improved so they didn't bother to sign him.
     
  23. markov`

    markov` Registered User

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    Enough said.
     
  24. stockwizard*

    stockwizard* Guest

    Personally, I don't see how any promising young kid with hopes of making the NHL would choose the NCAA over the CHL.
    I know everyone will start saying, "oh but they can get their Bachelor degree".
    They can also do that after they are 20 and their CHL careers don't work out. What difference does it make if it takes them a few extra years longer to get their degree, if it gives them a better opportunity to make the NHL.
    Phil Kessel is a fool if he doesn't choose the CHL, which he probably won't.
    Makes me think he is scared to leave home. A "true" Phenom like Crosby knew where he should go.
    Roenick and Chelios knew what was best also.
    Any American kid with any balls at all will come to the CHL.
     
  25. Postman

    Postman Registered User

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    Oh give me a break. This is bordering on not just idiocy, but bigotry.

    Canadian kids grow up watching CHL games and thus, naturally, they are more attracted to the CHL. American kids grow up watching the NCAA, thus, they too are more attracted to what they grew up watching. It really isn't anymore complicated than that.

    For you to sit there and belittle Kessel and other 16/17/18 year old American prospects is just flat-out immature and moronic.
     
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