Ncaa Vs Chl

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stockwizard*

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Postman said:
Oh give me a break. This is bordering on not just idiocy, but bigotry.

Canadian kids grow up watching CHL games and thus, naturally, they are more attracted to the CHL. American kids grow up watching the NCAA, thus, they too are more attracted to what they grew up watching. It really isn't anymore complicated than that.

For you to sit there and belittle Kessel and other 16/17/18 year old American prospects is just flat-out immature and moronic.
Well, surely the American kids growing up and watching the NCAA know that the CHL is the surest and quickest route to the NHL.
I can understand some marginal player going to the NCAA to work on their degree, but like I said, there is no excuse for a player like Kessel.
That is unless he isn't as good as people are saying. This perhaps is the case.
Most of the Americans with character choose the CHL.
 

Postman

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stockwizard said:
Well, surely the American kids growing up and watching the NCAA know that the CHL is the surest and quickest route to the NHL.
I can understand some marginal player going to the NCAA to work on their degree, but like I said, there is no excuse for a player like Kessel.

Kessel mentioned in an article posted on these boards a few days ago that he grew up watching the NCAA, he loves college, and always wanted to play in college. If he goes to college, does that mean he'll become any less of a player? He may not choose the route that's the quickest to the NHL, but the NCAA has gotten increasingly better as a development league over the years.

stockwizard said:
That is unless he isn't as good as people are saying. This perhaps is the case.

This is perhaps the case with 100% of the prospects on these boards. INCLUDING Crosby, Ovechkin, etc. who were all crowned gods of hockey long before their draft years even.

stockwizard said:
Most of the Americans with character choose the CHL.

Zach Parise has no character? Ryan Whitney, Mike Komisarek, Drew Stafford, Alvaro Montoya, Ryan Kesler, etc. all have no character?

I don't even know why I bother anymore.
 

stockwizard*

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I'm not saying if you play NCAA you have no character. Obviously I can't speak for those players.
I think it shows a players commitment to the game and his character if an American is willing to move to a foreign country and often a very small town.
The Americans that have made this choice are often my favorites in the NHL. Guys with character. Like Roenick.
 

db23

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So you don't think some kid growing up playing hockey in a small town in Idaho or Utah doesn't have to leave home to play in the NCAA? They just go to their Division I major hockey college down the street?

Mik Komisarek left home at 15 to go play Eastern Junior hockey in Conneticut, from there he went to Ann Arbor Michigan to the NTDP, and the U of M. Chris Higgins left home at 14 to play prep school hockey in Conneticut and then on to Yale. Their story is typical. They are no closer to home really than Michigan or N.Y. kids who go to play in the OHL. They leave at the saem time as well.

The only thing is they probably don't have to deal with as many DUMB REDNECKS if they don't cross the border. :shakehead
 

stockwizard*

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db23 said:
The only thing is they probably don't have to deal with as many DUMB REDNECKS if they don't cross the border. :shakehead

My friend, there is no need to insult the entire country of Canada because you don't agree.
Obviously it is a much bigger move for an American to play in the CHL than the NCAA. You have to play in tiny towns like Saskatoon, and Rimouski.
I get the feeling sometimes that the Americans who are good enough and don't come up are afraid of the intimidation of the CHL since it is considered a much tougher league. Tons of fighting.
It is almost like they are taking the easy way out.
 
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MN_Gopher

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I think the NCAA is the tougher league. The players are better, this does not mean they will be better. The players are older, more mature, more knowlege(they have played longer) and are in physical coordination with their bodies. Not much growing left if any. So on draft do u want a kid that plays with men, or a kid that plays with kids. I think that is why a guy like AO is really special. He is allready holding his own against the big boys. I think that is a trend that is becoming more common. You draft a guy and look at his numbers and sometimes ur like..OK... but you have to look at the league. Both Heatly and Gaborik had fewer points than Torres and Hartnell. And look who is putting up better numbers in the NHL. And who went higher.

I put it somewhere else on these boards. But if the NCAA was as scouted 10 years ago as it was now. Rob Blake does not go 70th overall, he had 13 pts in 43 games. Keith Tkcackuk does not go 19th overall 40 pts in 36 games. Amonte does not go 68th overall. Think he was drafted out of HS or a devolpmental league. Same with Shawn McEachern 110th overall. Bret Hull 117 overall. It used to be if u came from the NCAA and were from BU, BC, Mich, Mich ST, NoDak, WI and a couple of other top schools u could go high. If you came from a small market school or were drafted before college u went low. Now u see guys like Paul Martin MN HS going in the second and now that he turned out u see guys like Blake Wheeler(same league) going ever higher. Gary Suter 180 overall 22 pts in 35 games as a fresh at WI. Where as Ryan Suter goes 7th after putting up 19 pts in 39 games. This year the NCAA had 3 in the top 13, the CHL had 11 in the first round and the NCAA has 4 other commits that went in the first. I think that trend will continue. Still Lately Reinprect, a steady guy, Pock, Lessard and Sejna were all FAs. They may turn out they may not. But i would not have minded if i took them with any round pick. I do not think the NCAA will ever surpass the CHL in draft picks or in 1:1 talent. But i think it has been under appreciated and only the last 2-3 years has goten the respect for its players they deserve.
 

stockwizard*

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NCAA players are older so they may be more physically mature, but CHL players on average are way more talented.
Major Junior in Canada has alot more fighting and rough play than the NCAA. I think this is good for preparing players for the NHL.
 

MN_Gopher

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I like how people say the CHL is tougher it has fighting. Wow. I like hockey were all the guys on the ice have talent. IMO fighting only takes away spots from skill players who are replaced with goons. I love Alex Henry and Moose but they are not on the wild to play hockey. I guess the NCAA is just about hockey.


Guys like AJ Thelen last played in his homwtown in Minny when he was 15. Keith Ballard and Jon Waibel left as a HS sophmores to play on devolpmental teams. Drew Stafford leaves to play at Shattucks. Trot Riddle, Matt Koalska, Matt Demarchi, Gino Guyer, Barry Tallackson, Grant Potulny, Ryan Potulny, Thomas Vanek leaves his whole country, Dany Irman, and u know a bunch of other gophs all left there nice small town and their state or their country to play in the USHL. And it is the norm in the NCAA to play USHL before coming up. Almost every D-1 player leaves to play hockey. And the almighty Sidney Crosby(bow ur head in respect) went to the same prep school as Parise, Stafford, Hirsh and Parise the goalie. So why dont they get the same respect for going to hockey school to leaarn and better their game?
 

stockwizard*

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Intimidation will always be a part of hockey. Fighting adds to the game IMO.

I have no doubt they have some great midget programs in the U.S.
The great Phenom Sidney Crosby was too huge in his home town so he decided to attend Shattuck, and from what I hear it is a great hockey program.

If you ask guys like Chelios they will tell you that the experience and knowledge they aquired from playing CHL hockey was irreplacable.

All I am saying that if I was from the U.S. and I was serious about making the NHL, I would come up and play CHL. If I was more serious about getting a degree I would go NCAA.

To me Kessel made a cowardly choice.
It is his own fault if he is punished come draft day.
 

SpaceGhost79

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I guess Andrew Cogliano is a fool for dissing St. Mike's and going the college route next year, too :shakehead

I don't see all the benefits of Kessel going to major juniors. Look at how Crosby, as a 16 year old, destroyed the league. In 59 games he posted 135 points. How, exactly, does that help one's development when obviously he's already too good for the place? Apparently there's a lack of defense in the league. I'm not saying that Kessel is going to put up similar numbers because Crosby is an extremely special player, but if he's as good as everyone's making him out to be I'd expect him to upt up quite a few points. But it's almost as if he'd just be going there to pad his stats.

If Kessel goes to college, he'll be playing against more of a mix of some good young talent his age and some older, more mature players (and some goons). I don't find that bad at all seeing as whenever he makes the jump to the pros he'll be in the same situation facing younger and older players (and not all of whom are as talented, either). And I certainly don't expect him to be putting up 130 points in college, either.

Don't underestimate the skill level of college hockey, either. 10 years ago you had a team like Michigan destroying everyone in the CCHA with 10-1 scores. Today there's a lot intense 2-1 and 3-2 battles from the top to bottom of each league with the occasional blowout of certain bottomfeeders. But the amount of talent in the NCAA is vastly improved all across the board from where it was a decade ago. And there's a lot of top Canadian talent crossing the border to play.

Kessel may play half the amount of games college, though I don't think that'll hurt him. It didn't hurt Dany Heatley playing at Wisconsin for two years and he was picked #2 overall in the draft. It also didn't hurt several other of the afforementioned college players who have gone on to great pro careers. And who really cares where he is drafted? Mike Comrie was a 3rd round pick and he's better than a lot of the 1st round picks from that year. Just because someone is drafted high doesn't mean they will make the pros. Every year there's a lot of first round busts.

As Kessel said, he grew up watching college hockey and it's the way he wants to go. So what's wrong with that? His cousin David Moss plays for Michigan and has absolutely loved the experience, so it's not like he's going into this blind, either.

Every player chooses a path. College isn't for everyone, major juniors isn't for everyone. Each league has its benefits, and each one can get you to the big dance. My belief has always been it doesn't matter which path you choose, if you're good enough, you will make it.
 

chaachie12

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stockwizard said:
If you ask guys like Chelios they will tell you that the experience and knowledge they aquired from playing CHL hockey was irreplacable.

All I am saying that if I was from the U.S. and I was serious about making the NHL, I would come up and play CHL. If I was more serious about getting a degree I would go NCAA.

To me Kessel made a cowardly choice.
It is his own fault if he is punished come draft day.

this is just idiotic...you don't think if you ask top Americans that went to the NCAA don't feel thier experience was "irreplacable"? Ask Keith Ballard, Zach Parise. And people who choose the NCAA aren't serious about the NHL? Give me a break, open your eyes, and get some perspective.

Kessel is a coward for going to college? That was one of the dumbest things I have heard. Do you think it will affect his draft stock any? 100% not. You're kidding yourself if you don't think some of the top players in the world don't go to the NCAA. And what about the canadian kids who come play for the NCAA...are they cowards? Is Travis Zajac a coward? Kris Chucko? Heatley? Boy, it sure messed up thier draft status....they obviously weren't serious about the NHL.

If anything it is MORE brave to come attend school AND play such a high level of hockey. Your argument is flat, it doesn't even make sense. :banghead:
 

MikeC44

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SpaceGhost79 said:
I don't see all the benefits of Kessel going to major juniors. Look at how Crosby, as a 16 year old, destroyed the league. In 59 games he posted 135 points. How, exactly, does that help one's development when obviously he's already too good for the place?

Where was Crosby supposed to play last year? He couldn't skip his last 2 years of high school and jump directly to the NCAA.
 

LaLaLaprise

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SpaceGhost79 said:
I guess Andrew Cogliano is a fool for dissing St. Mike's and going the college route next year, too :shakehead

I don't see all the benefits of Kessel going to major juniors. Look at how Crosby, as a 16 year old, destroyed the league. In 59 games he posted 135 points. How, exactly, does that help one's development when obviously he's already too good for the place? Apparently there's a lack of defense in the league. I'm not saying that Kessel is going to put up similar numbers because Crosby is an extremely special player, but if he's as good as everyone's making him out to be I'd expect him to upt up quite a few points. But it's almost as if he'd just be going there to pad his stats.

If Kessel goes to college, he'll be playing against more of a mix of some good young talent his age and some older, more mature players (and some goons). I don't find that bad at all seeing as whenever he makes the jump to the pros he'll be in the same situation facing younger and older players (and not all of whom are as talented, either). And I certainly don't expect him to be putting up 130 points in college, either.

Don't underestimate the skill level of college hockey, either. 10 years ago you had a team like Michigan destroying everyone in the CCHA with 10-1 scores. Today there's a lot intense 2-1 and 3-2 battles from the top to bottom of each league with the occasional blowout of certain bottomfeeders. But the amount of talent in the NCAA is vastly improved all across the board from where it was a decade ago. And there's a lot of top Canadian talent crossing the border to play.

Kessel may play half the amount of games college, though I don't think that'll hurt him. It didn't hurt Dany Heatley playing at Wisconsin for two years and he was picked #2 overall in the draft. It also didn't hurt several other of the afforementioned college players who have gone on to great pro careers. And who really cares where he is drafted? Mike Comrie was a 3rd round pick and he's better than a lot of the 1st round picks from that year. Just because someone is drafted high doesn't mean they will make the pros. Every year there's a lot of first round busts.

As Kessel said, he grew up watching college hockey and it's the way he wants to go. So what's wrong with that? His cousin David Moss plays for Michigan and has absolutely loved the experience, so it's not like he's going into this blind, either.

Every player chooses a path. College isn't for everyone, major juniors isn't for everyone. Each league has its benefits, and each one can get you to the big dance. My belief has always been it doesn't matter which path you choose, if you're good enough, you will make it.

So Crosby's optioms at 16:

Go to the CHL or play JR A. Hmmm, he may have destroyed the CHL BUT would you have rathered him play JR A??
 

LaLaLaprise

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MN_Gopher said:
USHL. Or do like Parise and stay at Shattucks. It was coached by Andy Murray. I think that program can devolp talent.

LOL So the other guy was dissing the CHL because Crosby "destoryed it" Yet you want him to go lesser leagues.

Good call.
 

stockwizard*

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La-La-Laprise said:
LOL So the other guy was dissing the CHL because Crosby "destoryed it" Yet you want him to go lesser leagues.

Good call.
Yeah really. You people should understand that Crosby is the only 16 year old in the history of the league to tear it up. It has never happened before, so don't worry, Kessel would never do the same.
Draft status is important because you can sign a bigger contract if you get taken sooner. Makes sense right!
USHL for Crosby. :lol
 

MN_Gopher

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Hey i just said he could've. Didnt hurt Parise one bit. Besides Crosby is special. There is no way he tears up the NCAA like he did in juniors. In his case he had no options. But for most; the USHL, devolpmental leagues, and powerhouse prep schools are options to better your game if you want to get a degree and keep elegability.

And just out of curiosty do you know who shattucks plays in a given year?
 

Roughneck

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SpaceGhost79 said:
I don't see all the benefits of Kessel going to major juniors. Look at how Crosby, as a 16 year old, destroyed the league. In 59 games he posted 135 points. How, exactly, does that help one's development when obviously he's already too good for the place? Apparently there's a lack of defense in the league. I'm not saying that Kessel is going to put up similar numbers because Crosby is an extremely special player, but if he's as good as everyone's making him out to be I'd expect him to upt up quite a few points. But it's almost as if he'd just be going there to pad his stats.

Crosby's only other options for this, and next season are to play at Shattuck's or the Atlantic Jr.A leagues.

Seeing as he set the SSM record for points in his grade 10 year, just think of how easily he would dominate in his junior and senior years.
 

LaLaLaprise

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MN_Gopher said:
Hey i just said he could've. Didnt hurt Parise one bit. Besides Crosby is special. There is no way he tears up the NCAA like he did in juniors. In his case he had no options. But for most; the USHL, devolpmental leagues, and powerhouse prep schools are options to better your game if you want to get a degree and keep elegability.

And just out of curiosty do you know who shattucks plays in a given year?

I think you under estimate Crosby.
 

Oilers Chick

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The NCAA has come a LONG way since guys like Chelios were drafted. So to make the comparison that the NCAA today is exactly the way it was 20 some odd years ago is silly. The NCAA has grown, gotten better not only in their ability to recruit players but also developing them.

Also, if you look at D-1 as a whole, you'll find that it isn't just the Americans who are filling these rosters. There are a large number of Canadians filling them as well. By saying that Americans who choose NCAA over CHL are dumb as far as choosing the "best" route to the NHL, aren't you also implying that the many Canadians who choose the NCAA route are also dumb? I mean why would someone like Dany Heatley, Paul Kariya, Rob Blake, etc. choose the NCAA instead of the CHL? Were they "dumb" in their choices as well?

It's a personal choice (with a few rare exceptions) which route a player takes. If he eventually makes it to the NHL, it doesn't really matter HOW he got there. What matters is that he got there.
 

LaLaLaprise

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Oilers Chick said:
The NCAA has come a LONG way since guys like Chelios were drafted. So to make the comparison that the NCAA today is exactly the way it was 20 some odd years ago is silly. The NCAA has grown, gotten better not only in their ability to recruit players but also developing them.

Also, if you look at D-1 as a whole, you'll find that it isn't just the Americans who are filling these rosters. There are a large number of Canadians filling them as well. By saying that Americans who choose NCAA over CHL are dumb as far as choosing the "best" route to the NHL, aren't you also implying that the many Canadians who choose the NCAA route are also dumb? I mean why would someone like Dany Heatley, Paul Kariya, Rob Blake, etc. choose the NCAA instead of the CHL? Were they "dumb" in their choices as well?

It's a personal choice (with a few rare exceptions) which route a player takes. If he eventually makes it to the NHL, it doesn't really matter HOW he got there. What matters is that he got there.

Thast the one thing i disagree with Stockwizard about. Players arent dumb for choosing NCAA.

Both routes are good. Its a personal choice, just like choosing what pair of skates to buy.
 

stockwizard*

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But what I am saying is if a player is really good at the age of 15 or 16, why not come over to the CHL instead of wasting time in some midget program in the U.S.
I can understand playing in the NCAA if you don't start to come on until you are 18.

Everyone develops at different ages, but if you are super skilled at a young age it shouldn't be a personal choice, it should be an obvious choice.
 

LaLaLaprise

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stockwizard said:
But what I am saying is if a player is really good at the age of 15 or 16, why not come over to the CHL instead of wasting time in some midget program in the U.S.
I can understand playing in the NCAA if you don't start to come on until you are 18.

Everyone develops at different ages, but if you are super skilled at a young age it shouldn't be a personal choice, it should be an obvious choice.

You should have said that instead of calling 16 year olds Cowards.
 

Oilers Chick

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stockwizard said:
But what I am saying is if a player is really good at the age of 15 or 16, why not come over to the CHL instead of wasting time in some midget program in the U.S.
I can understand playing in the NCAA if you don't start to come on until you are 18.

Everyone develops at different ages, but if you are super skilled at a young age it shouldn't be a personal choice, it should be an obvious choice.

What may be an "obvious choice" to you may not be to these kids who think otherwise. That's more a matter of YOUR opinion. There are a myriad of reasons why kids choose to play in the NCAA. Also, what makes you think that these kids are wasting their time in HS or prep leagues or even the USNTDP? Have you actually SEEN any of these programs personally? I mean SSM can't be all that bad, if its producing players such as Crosby and Parise.

Whether you think it's an "obvious choice", you have to accept the fact that not everyone, regardless of how good they are, will want to play in the CHL. Furthermore, even if these really good players DO play in the CHL, there is no guarantee that they will make it to and be successful in the NHL, especially with the growing number of Europeans in addition to the number of NCAA players entering the NHL.

One other thing I'll add is the NCAA is beginning to see an increasing number of 15 and 16 year olds verbally committing to NCAA schools. Technically speaking, verbally commitments aren't etched in stone. However, the majority of those who do give verbals do eventually end up playing for the school that they've given a verbal commitment to. Now some do change their minds as to WHICH school they want to play for (case & point is Nate Hagemo, who verabally committed to Wisconsin but changed his mind and decided to go to Minnesota instead).
 

Steve Latin*

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stockwizard said:
But what I am saying is if a player is really good at the age of 15 or 16, why not come over to the CHL instead of wasting time in some midget program in the U.S.
I can understand playing in the NCAA if you don't start to come on until you are 18.

Everyone develops at different ages, but if you are super skilled at a young age it shouldn't be a personal choice, it should be an obvious choice.

Well then, what if a player is really skilled at 16 and dominates his major junior league? It would seem to me that the obvious choice to play in a European Men's league rather than wasting time in the Q, for example. In Europe, the player would improve his game by playing against advanced competition and earn a pretty penny on the side. Also, a year in a Men's league would make that player more immediately NHL-ready. Let's take Ovechkin for example. He dominated the U-18 last year and he had a great season in the Superleague this year, leading his team in goal scoring and earning honors for being the best Left Wing. Experts are predicting him to play next season for Washington and make an immediate impact. Thus, if we add up his Dynamo salary, the rookie max he's going to make in 2004-2005, and the bonuses he's going to meet, he's going to be a very rich man by the time he's 20.

Now, let's contrast that with Sidney Crosby. If Sidney wanted to, he could probably sign a contract in the RSL or SEL next year and make over $500,000. Instead, he's going to stick around the Q, play against boys his age, and make considerably less. This might be a smart decision for him I don't think he's physically strong enough to play against men yet. In fact, he looks rather frail and weak. If he goes against that higher level of competition prematurely, it's very likely that he could suffer a terrible injury. Another possibility is that he might get easily rattled by much stronger opponents and lose a lot of his confidence. Any of these scenarios could affect his draft stock.

However, let's say Crosby did do well in a Men's league... then at least you know he's more prepared for the NHL mentally, which means that even if he can't get involved in the physical game then he has the skills to avoid it. For all we know, he might never put on much more weight on that slight frame of his and he'll need to get his points as a perimeter player. If he proves that he can still be effective this way, then I think a GM would be much more confident putting him on the roster even if he stays at a diminutive 5'10" 190, thus getting him to the NHL sooner and probably earning him more ice-time to reach those all important signing bonuses.

So, I guess what it comes down to is that where you play reflects your abilities as a player, what sort of risk you want to take, and what sort of reward you want to reap. We've seen where Ovechkin's heart is.

S L
 
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