Confirmed with Link: Nate Thompson 1 year 750k

[KingBogo]

If they have Thompson as their C, and get 5 min/gm, will they be able to impress enough to get more TOI than that from Maurice? Maybe, if they are really good, they will get 6:30. If Thompson is also good, maybe the line gets up to 8 min. But we still won't have a dynamic bottom 6. I think the issue is bigger than just getting an additional couple of minutes for the 4th line.

It will depend on how good Harkins turns out to be and if he is skilled enough to carry a 4th line. Maurice is a typical old school coach, as are most coaches in the league. They would rather play a 4th line 5-6 minutes and have nothing happen, then play them 10-12 minutes and trade HD chances with the other team. Once you start playing a 4th line 10-12 minutes a fairly large percentage of those minutes will be against lines further up the depth chart. If you are trading HD chances with better lines you are more likely to get scored on more than you score. This dynamic will start changing when you have enough talent on the 4th line to hold their own against better lines and win their matchups against the other team's 4th line. TB would be an example of a team with this kind of depth.

Maurice likes guys like Thompson as he can play 5-6 minutes and nothing happens either way. This is the safe strategy. If Harkins can start carrying the 4th line and they can hold their own with better lines and win their 4th line matchups, IMO Maurice will start changing his strategy as it is to his advantage to do so. The best example of this is when we had Stastny the first time. Little helped the 4th line win matchups and they got played accordingly.

 

[KingBogo]

The center ice position is the most important position upfront. Having a liability in that slot makes it much harder on the wingers to effectively do their jobs. I dont see why we should expect much from players who are not put in positions to succeed. Playing limited minutes with an over the hill vet isn't a recipe to succeed.

Continuing to trumpet 17-18 when we had a legit second line elite play driving winger in Perrault and a very strong two-way third liner in Armia to carry old man Henriques is just nonsensical. We aren't likely to have the ability to play the caliber of player Perrault was at that time in that spot moving forward so we need to come up with different solutions. The easiest one is to play a quality center cough Lowry cough in that spot.

Why is this nonsensical? If the Jets ever get in the position where they have the talent to play the 4th line more minutes why would Maurice not play them more minutes like he did when he had the talent to do so? Often to me the argument seems to be why improve the bottom 6 if Maurice won't play them? I'd counter and say if he had the talent he would and that is why I'd like Chevy to pursue better bottom 6 depth. But if Chevy believes that he already has the talent at hand in Harkins and Appleton I see no reason why they can't force Maurice to play them more through dominating their matchups.

 

[surixon]

Why is this nonsensical? If the Jets ever get in the position where they have the talent to play the 4th line more minutes why would Maurice not play them more minutes like he did when he had the talent to do so? Often to me the argument seems to be why improve the bottom 6 if Maurice won't play them? I'd counter and say if he had the talent he would and that is why I'd like Chevy to pursue better bottom 6 depth. But if Chevy believes that he already has the talent at hand in Harkins and Appleton I see no reason why they can't force Maurice to play them more through dominating their matchups.

The point is that Maurice isn't going to have spare first and second line talent at his disposal very often in order to actually feel comfortable playing his fourth line decent minutes. Its completely unrealistic that we will be able to acquire that type of talent consistently.

Most other coaches in this league have been able to figure out how to build effective bottom 6's that can be trusted to play decent using young players and solid third line talents. Maurice is one of the few coaches that still insists on dressing a pure checking third line and fourth line full of gritty specialists. He is falling further and further behind what the best in class coaches are doing with their lineups now. Yeah its obvious why he wants the 5 minute fourth line but what is the trade off? It's having to run your top line into the ground because you can't trust your fourth line to play minutes. None of the best teams run their top lines anywhere near as hard.

Its high time that he starts adapting to the new realities of this league and stops rounding out his lineups with good vets that only offer token utility on the PK. I'm sorry but being so risk adverse that you are only capable of playing your fourth line quality minutes when you have a twonvet 2nd line players on it is a problem imo.

How about actually putting Harkins and Appelton in a position to succeed by playing them with a good center instead of putting them behind the 8 ball with bad player that is only in the lineup cause he's a vet and has PK experience? Perhaps then they would shine and we wouldn't have to worry about it.

 

[KingBogo]

The point is that Maurice isn't going to have spare first and second line talent at his disposal very often in order to actually feel comfortable playing his fourth line decent minutes. Its completely unrealistic that we will be able to acquire that type of talent consistently.

Most other coaches in this league have been able to figure out how to build effective bottom 6's that can be trusted to play decent using young players and solid third line talents. Maurice is one of the few coaches that still insists on dressing a pure checking third line and fourth line full of gritty specialists. He is falling further and further behind what the best in class coaches are doing with their lineups now. Yeah its obvious why he wants the 5 minute fourth line but what is the trade off? It's having to run your top line into the ground because you can't trust your fourth line to play minutes. None of the best teams run their top lines anywhere near as hard.

Its high time that he starts adapting to the new realities of this league and stops rounding out his lineups with good vets that only offer token utility on the PK. I'm sorry but being so risk adverse that you are only capable of playing your fourth line quality minutes when you have a twonvet 2nd line players on it is a problem imo.

How about actually putting Harkins and Appelton in a position to succeed by playing them with a good center instead of putting them behind the 8 ball with bad player that is only in the lineup cause he's a vet and has PK experience? Perhaps then they would shine and we wouldn't have to worry about it.

The Flyers played Thompson in all 16 of their playoff games. Is Alain Vigneault the same category of coach as Maurice?

 

[surixon]

The Flyers played Thompson in all 16 of their playoff games. Is Alain Vigneault the same category of coach as Maurice?

Absolutely Vingneault is and has always been 100% an old school coach.

I personally have not held him in high regard as a coach for a number of years now.

 

[KingBogo]

Absolutely Vingneault is and has always been 100% an old school coach.

I personally have not held him in high regard as a coach for a number of years now.

I would argue there are considerably more old school coaches then not.

 

[surixon]

I would argue there are considerably more old school coaches then not.

Sure but more of the new aged coaches are winning and winning more consistently now.

Cooper, Sullivan, Trotz are three of your last 4 cup winning coaches and two of them are very new aged in roster deployment and tactics.

Most of the old school coaches who are having success have adapted in many ways. Trotz is the perfect example of that. He still has some old school in him but he is still bear the forefront of new aged tactics in the offensive end and he still dresses a very balanced top 9.

Tortz is another coach who now runs a balanced top 9 with a checking fourth line.

Simple fact of the matter is the game is continuing to evolve and the best coaches will be the ones who evolve with it.

 

[KingBogo]

Sure but more of the new aged coaches are winning and winning more consistently now.

Cooper, Sullivan, Trotz are three of your last 4 cup winning coaches and two of them are very new aged in roster deployment and tactics.

Most of the old school coaches who are having success have adapted in many ways. Trotz is the perfect example of that. He still has some old school in him but he is still bear the forefront of new aged tactics in the offensive end and he still dresses a very balanced top 9.

Tortz is another coach who now runs a balanced top 9 with a checking fourth line.

Simple fact of the matter is the game is continuing to evolve and the best coaches will be the ones who evolve with it.

And I would if Chevy gave Maurice the talent to deploy a good balanced lineup he would, like he did when he had that type of talent at his disposal. I'll ask you a question. How do you think Maurice would deploy his lineup if we heard tomorrow that Little was cleared to play and wouldn't be going on LTIR and Roslovic was re-signed?

 

[surixon]

And I would if Chevy gave Maurice the talent to deploy a good balanced lineup he would, like he did when he had that type of talent at his disposal. I'll ask you a question. How do you think Maurice would deploy his lineup if we heard tomorrow that Little was cleared to play and wouldn't be going on LTIR and Roslovic was re-signed?

For one we wouldn't be cap compliant and would have to move a big deal out so there would be no net gain. Once again you are painting unrealistic scenarios in a cap league. A peewee coach would be smart enough to play his fourth line more with a top 6 C anchoring it. A good coach can make due with adequate talent see Trotz in New York.

As mentioned other teams get around this issue just fine. I also believe we have all the pieces here ro ice an effective bottom 6 if Maurice would actually put some trust into some of his players to prove him wrong the having them have to jump through hoops with inadequate support to get him to trust.

Copp Lowry Perrault/Vesalinen
Harkins Roslovic Appelton

Two lines that have proven to be able to beat their matchups.

Enough the excuses, did you ever think Chevy gets these washed up vets because that is what his coach wants him to ge thoroughly the first line.

 

[KingBogo]

For one we wouldn't be cap compliant and would have to move a big deal out so there would be no net gain. Once again you are painting unrealistic scenarios in a cap league. A peewee coach would be smart enough to play his fourth line more with a top 6 C anchoring it. A good coach can make due with adequate talent see Trotz in New York.

As mentioned other teams get around this issue just fine. I also believe we have all the pieces here ro ice an effective bottom 6 if Maurice would actually put some trust into some of his players to prove him wrong the having them have to jump through hoops with inadequate support to get him to trust.

Copp Lowry Perrault/Vesalinen
Harkins Roslovic Appelton

Two lines that have proven to be able to beat their matchups.

Enough the excuses, did you ever think Chevy gets these washed up vets because that is what his coach wants him to ge thoroughly the first line.

So you wouldn't answer my question. If Little was able to play Chevy would have no choice to find a way to be cap compliant which would likely require him to pay someone to take on MP's contract. And do you really think Maurice would play Thompson over Copp-Lowry-KV, Harkins-Roslovic-Apples if the young players kept taking steps forward. Personally I put the blame on Chevy for not giving Maurice better options in his bottom 6.

 

[surixon]

So you wouldn't answer my question. If Little was able to play Chevy would have no choice to find a way to be cap compliant which would likely require him to pay someone to take on MP's contract. And do you really think Maurice would play Thompson over Copp-Lowry-KV, Harkins-Roslovic-Apples if the young players kept taking steps forward. Personally I put the blame on Chevy for not giving Maurice better options in his bottom 6.

Of course he would play Little and play the fourth line more. Any coach would, should Moe be patted on the back for doing what everyone would do? What in his past history would lead you to believe he would keep that lineup combination in tact? He broke that kid line up last year in order to get his grizzled poor vets intot he lineup despite that line playing exceptional hockey. You darn well bet that even if the kids play well in camp Thompson will be in the starting lineup over one of them, just like Gramps and Bourque were. Sorry but the blame is all on the coach for me here. He's had options and refuses to try them over his bums.

I bag on Maurice because the situation needs to be unrealistically perfect for him to deviate from his archaic template. He needs to learn to alter his way of thinking when the situation isn't perfect.

 

[KingBogo]

Of course he would play Little and play the fourth line more. Any coach would, should Moe be patted on the back for doing what everyone would do? What in his past history would lead you to believe he would keep that lineup combination in tact? He broke that kid line up last year in order to get his grizzled poor vets intot he lineup despite that line playing exceptional hockey. You darn well bet that even if the kids play well in camp Thompson will be in the starting lineup over one of them, just like Hendriques and Bourque were. Sorry but the blame is all on the coach for me here. He's had options and refuses to try them over his bums.

I bag on Maurice because the situation needs to be unrealistically perfect for him to deviate from his archaic template. He needs to learn to alter his way of thinking when the situation isn't perfect.

I see some of your points but Chevy's job is to give Maurice enough talent that he doesn't default to the most risk adverse default like most "old school" coaches do. With KV's play in Liiga I actually think we have a 4th line that is most likely KV-Harkins-Appleton and I see them all having something to prove and produce well getting the corresponding minutes.

 

[surixon]

I see some of your points but Chevy's job is to give Maurice enough talent that he doesn't default to the most risk adverse default like most "old school" coaches do. With KV's play in Liiga I actually think we have a 4th line that is most likely KV-Harkins-Appleton and I see them all having something to prove and produce well getting the corresponding minutes.

Well he is going to have to prove me wrong yet again this year imo. If I were him I would be doing a lot of self assessment this offseason as well as a lot of homework on what the best teams are doing. He is going to need to do a lot of things differently this year because what he has been doing the last few years hasn't worked. I will be very disappointed if we get the same old same old this year, he makes more then enough money that self improvement should be a requirement.

 

[Teemusalami204]

It won’t matter if Thompson plays every game. Lowry will be the 3c which means our 4th line plays 5 min a game

 

[KingBogo]

It won’t matter if Thompson plays every game. Lowry will be the 3c which means our 4th line plays 5 min a game

Not if the 4th line includes the KV we are now seeing this season. I'd argue a KV-Harkins-Appleton line will be averaging in the 10-12 minute range.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Not if the 4th line includes the KV we are now seeing this season. I'd argue a KV-Harkins-Appleton line will be averaging in the 10-12 minute range.

I don’t agree. Lowry line plays other teams top lines they won’t be playing any less then they have been

 

[KingBogo]

I don’t agree. Lowry line plays other teams top lines they won’t be playing any less then they have been

They don’t have to play less. A more talented 4th line allows you to not have to ride your top 2 lines as hard.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

It will depend on how good Harkins turns out to be and if he is skilled enough to carry a 4th line. Maurice is a typical old school coach, as are most coaches in the league. They would rather play a 4th line 5-6 minutes and have nothing happen, then play them 10-12 minutes and trade HD chances with the other team. Once you start playing a 4th line 10-12 minutes a fairly large percentage of those minutes will be against lines further up the depth chart. If you are trading HD chances with better lines you are more likely to get scored on more than you score. This dynamic will start changing when you have enough talent on the 4th line to hold their own against better lines and win their matchups against the other team's 4th line. TB would be an example of a team with this kind of depth.

Maurice likes guys like Thompson as he can play 5-6 minutes and nothing happens either way. This is the safe strategy. If Harkins can start carrying the 4th line and they can hold their own with better lines and win their 4th line matchups, IMO Maurice will start changing his strategy as it is to his advantage to do so. The best example of this is when we had Stastny the first time. Little helped the 4th line win matchups and they got played accordingly.

With Copp and Lowry on the 4th line, I don't think there is any danger in playing them 10-12 minutes.

I think Maurice is making a mistake with the bottom 6. He has a couple of excellent 4th liners and is playing them as a big minutes, almost 2nd line minutes, 3rd line. I think that strategy is blocking the development of skilled players on a good, scoring 3rd line.

We saw Harkins - Roslovic - Appleton be very successful as a 3rd line last year. It is possible that in a bigger sample size they get exposed. But with Maurice's usage, we will never find out. It is also possible that they will get even better with more experience and time together. They had chemistry in the AHL and they showed it again in the NHL, only to be broken up.

Yes Maurice likes guys like Thompson. They fit his image of what a bottom 6 should be. But we could have a really good bottom 6 without him.

Maurice changed his strategy when we had Stastny before because he had a 2C available to play on the 4th line. But even then, did he really change his strategy? The 4th line got more TOI, but the 3rd line was still a shutdown line with Copp - Lowry. It wasn't a different strategy. It was just a better 4th line.

 

[KingBogo]

With Copp and Lowry on the 4th line, I don't think there is any danger in playing them 10-12 minutes.

I think Maurice is making a mistake with the bottom 6. He has a couple of excellent 4th liners and is playing them as a big minutes, almost 2nd line minutes, 3rd line. I think that strategy is blocking the development of skilled players on a good, scoring 3rd line.

We saw Harkins - Roslovic - Appleton be very successful as a 3rd line last year. It is possible that in a bigger sample size they get exposed. But with Maurice's usage, we will never find out. It is also possible that they will get even better with more experience and time together. They had chemistry in the AHL and they showed it again in the NHL, only to be broken up.

Yes Maurice likes guys like Thompson. They fit his image of what a bottom 6 should be. But we could have a really good bottom 6 without him.

Maurice changed his strategy when we had Stastny before because he had a 2C available to play on the 4th line. But even then, did he really change his strategy? The 4th line got more TOI, but the 3rd line was still a shutdown line with Copp - Lowry. It wasn't a different strategy. It was just a better 4th line.

A checking 3rd line isn't a bad thing, especially if you have a more talented 4th line. While our top 6 is strong offensively they are not great defensively and we need a line that can go out and shut down other team's top lines on nights when the ice gets tilted against us. After Ehlers Copp is the next best forward at tilting the ice back in our favour. If Harkins is as good as I think he will be, he will soon start dominating competition in the bottom 6 and get the corresponding minutes. All I'm arguing is the more talent we have in our bottom 6 the more icetime they will get as Maurice trusts them enough. We know Maurice loves Harkins and I think he will give him lots of opportunity to continue growing as a player.

The risk I see is that we are very thin at forward depth so it only takes an injury or 2 and Maurice will quickly switch to a very conservative lineup.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

A checking 3rd line isn't a bad thing, especially if you have a more talented 4th line. While our top 6 is strong offensively they are not great defensively and we need a line that can go out and shut down other team's top lines on nights when the ice gets tilted against us. After Ehlers Copp is the next best forward at tilting the ice back in our favour. If Harkins is as good as I think he will be, he will soon start dominating competition in the bottom 6 and get the corresponding minutes. All I'm arguing is the more talent we have in our bottom 6 the more icetime they will get as Maurice trusts them enough. We know Maurice loves Harkins and I think he will give him lots of opportunity to continue growing as a player.

The risk I see is that we are very thin at forward depth so it only takes an injury or 2 and Maurice will quickly switch to a very conservative lineup.

And I am arguing that we have the talent in our bottom 6, but it is not developing as it could and should. Maurice is slow to give trust to young players who are less than outstanding top 6 players. I know all old school coaches suffer from that, but I think Maurice takes it even further than most.

I see the value in our shutdown 3rd line. I'm not ignoring the fact that they often win their matchups, even against top lines. But, ignoring the 3rd & 4th labels for a minute, lets keep Copp and Lowry in a shutdown role, but also keep HRA in a scoring role. Give HRA more TOI, CLX less.

Right now it seems that Maurice is using Rosie at 3RW to try and get at least a little scoring from that line. It isn't working very well. Meanwhile the 4th line gets 5 min with a Nate Thompson or Nick Shore at C. Put MP at 3RW, or the cheap FA signing. Keep HRA together in a scoring role and I don't care whether we call them the 3rd line or the 4th as long as we give them at least half of the bottom 6 minutes. Then maybe the bottom 6 gets a bigger share of the total TOI and some of our top 6 players aren't ridden quite so hard.

With an improving D corps behind them, maybe our top 6 doesn't look quite so bad defensively. Maybe Connor gets a little better in that department if Maurice chooses to give him a little coaching. The Copp-Lowry line can still get a lot of its minutes being spotted against other teams' top lines to shut them down a little. HRA will get time against opposition 4th lines. It should chew them up. Both CLx and HRA will get time against opposing 3rd lines where both should at least hold their own.

 

[KingBogo]

And I am arguing that we have the talent in our bottom 6, but it is not developing as it could and should. Maurice is slow to give trust to young players who are less than outstanding top 6 players. I know all old school coaches suffer from that, but I think Maurice takes it even further than most.

I see the value in our shutdown 3rd line. I'm not ignoring the fact that they often win their matchups, even against top lines. But, ignoring the 3rd & 4th labels for a minute, lets keep Copp and Lowry in a shutdown role, but also keep HRA in a scoring role. Give HRA more TOI, CLX less.

Right now it seems that Maurice is using Rosie at 3RW to try and get at least a little scoring from that line. It isn't working very well. Meanwhile the 4th line gets 5 min with a Nate Thompson or Nick Shore at C. Put MP at 3RW, or the cheap FA signing. Keep HRA together in a scoring role and I don't care whether we call them the 3rd line or the 4th as long as we give them at least half of the bottom 6 minutes. Then maybe the bottom 6 gets a bigger share of the total TOI and some of our top 6 players aren't ridden quite so hard.

With an improving D corps behind them, maybe our top 6 doesn't look quite so bad defensively. Maybe Connor gets a little better in that department if Maurice chooses to give him a little coaching. The Copp-Lowry line can still get a lot of its minutes being spotted against other teams' top lines to shut them down a little. HRA will get time against opposition 4th lines. It should chew them up. Both CLx and HRA will get time against opposing 3rd lines where both should at least hold their own.

The part I disagree with is that our bottom 6 isn't developing well. Harkins and Appleton have both taken significant steps forward and got decent icetime. Appleton averaged over 11 minutes a game and Harkins was just under 11 minutes a game. Shore also isn't really comparable to Thompson. He is in the same age range as our younger core and he went in the 3rd round in the draft we selected Scheifele. If it makes you feel better pretend we drafted him instead of LA and he got his opportunity. Actually I would have liked Chevy to re-sign Shore. The one player who I think hasn't develop as well as he could have is Roslovic, but I'd bet against him being with the Jets next season. On the positive KV looks to be ready to take a significant step forward. When healthy I expect our bottom 6 to be some combination of Copp-Lowry-MP-Harkins-Appleton-KV. The problem is Chevy has left us too thin after that where Thompson is just an injury or 2 away and that is why I have advocated that we need/should sign someone who is a significant add in the bottom 6.

 

[surixon]

The part I disagree with is that our bottom 6 isn't developing well. Harkins and Appleton have both taken significant steps forward and got decent icetime. Appleton averaged over 11 minutes a game and Harkins was just under 11 minutes a game. Shore also isn't really comparable to Thompson. He is in the same age range as our younger core and he went in the 3rd round in the draft we selected Scheifele. If it makes you feel better pretend we drafted him instead of LA and he got his opportunity. Actually I would have liked Chevy to re-sign Shore. The one player who I think hasn't develop as well as he could have is Roslovic, but I'd bet against him being with the Jets next season. On the positive KV looks to be ready to take a significant step forward. When healthy I expect our bottom 6 to be some combination of Copp-Lowry-MP-Harkins-Appleton-KV. The problem is Chevy has left us too thin after that where Thompson is just an injury or 2 away and that is why I have advocated that we need/should sign someone who is a significant add in the bottom 6.

Well I think a lot of that positive development is due to Vincent being quite good at it on the Moose. Roslovic was on track under him as well. It just seems prolonged playing time in our bottom 6 under Maurice tends to neuter offensive instincts and talent in favor of more safer play and more defensive ability. Appelton imo doesn't have much offensive upside at the NHL level and that is shown in his 4th line scoring rates to date. But he has the defensive smarts and positioning as well as that high energy motor Maurice loves so I expect him to carve out a nice niche for himself on the fourth line in a PK role. I don't have an issue with his development as he is in a role that is very appropriate for his skillset.

Having said that I am concerned about Harkins, Roslovic and in the future Ves in our bottom 6. As you mentioned yourself Roslovic hasn't developed as well as he should have and imo a lot of that is due to him not getting enough offensive reps. He has predominantly played in roles that have called for him to play a safe not give up much of anything role on the fourth line or a defensive shut down role on the third line. Neither of those roles have really allowed him the reps he would need as a young player to really hone his offensive skill at the NHL level. Imo he hasn't looked great in his few forays offensive roles in the last few years due in part because those skills, reads etc have been largely unpracticed at the NHL level. What is the saying if you don't use it you lose it. With regards to Harkins there was a noticeable shift in his game from when he was centering the top line on the Moose to how he played on the Jets. He was playing it safe, chipping out and chipping in even when he had room to skate it in. He still showed some creativity and some flashes of offense, but if you think back so did Jack in his half rookie year as well. I just worry that prolonged play in our bottom 6 will also see his offense and creativity largely coached out of him.

Heck I would even point to a player like Copp feeling he is being a bit held back being forced to play in a pure defensive checking role. We saw that in his last contract negotiation where he felt he was worth more and we have seen that in what he wants as a role going forward. I think the org might have trouble holding onto him long term if we keep him in a defensive role where he can't produce more points and maximize his earnings.

I think what @Mortimer Snerd and I are getting at is that the environment isn't there to foster offensive development in our bottom 6. Our bottom 6 has a very specific job and Maurice wants players who will do that job. If you are a skilled player then you need to greatly alter your game to be trusted in that role. As mentioned I would like to see a more Tampa Bay approach were players are allowed to play their games within the confines of the overall system no matter if they are on line 1 or 4. I find Maurice to be focused too much on the roles and how to fit people into the roles he wants filled, whereas I think a better approach is to focus on personnel and how to get the most out of each player he has.

Making a two/way line around Copp, Ves and Roslovic imo would not only help our team produce more but it would also help with individual player development and likely foster more good will with a number of middle of the roster caliber of players much like how Tampa is able to keep getting middle 6 talent signing extensions with them. Imo there have been far too many whispers of players not being happy with their usage in the bottom 6 and imo the risk adverse nature of Maurice is not helping matters here. I believe fairly strongly that if we iced a two-way third line most of these whispers would disappear as there would be a spot for players who aren't quite talented to bust into our top 6 to feel they have been put into a fair spot to maximize their point totals and therefore their contract values.

I found the below chart that a poster on here did with regards to scoring rates by line for each of the Canadian teams:

Simply put we lag behind most everyone here in terms of bottom 6 scoring. It seems quite clear to me that our setup is for our top 6 to score and our bottom 6 to defend. The teams we should be trying to emulate are Edmonton and Toronto where there is still scoring throughout there lineups.

 

[KingBogo]

Well I think a lot of that positive development is due to Vincent being quite good at it on the Moose. Roslovic was on track under him as well. It just seems prolonged playing time in our bottom 6 under Maurice tends to neuter offensive instincts and talent in favor of more safer play and more defensive ability. Appelton imo doesn't have much offensive upside at the NHL level and that is shown in his 4th line scoring rates to date. But he has the defensive smarts and positioning as well as that high energy motor Maurice loves so I expect him to carve out a nice niche for himself on the fourth line in a PK role. I don't have an issue with his development as he is in a role that is very appropriate for his skillset.

Having said that I am concerned about Harkins, Roslovic and in the future Ves in our bottom 6. As you mentioned yourself Roslovic hasn't developed as well as he should have and imo a lot of that is due to him not getting enough offensive reps. He has predominantly played in roles that have called for him to play a safe not give up much of anything role on the fourth line or a defensive shut down role on the third line. Neither of those roles have really allowed him the reps he would need as a young player to really hone his offensive skill at the NHL level. Imo he hasn't looked great in his few forays offensive roles in the last few years due in part because those skills, reads etc have been largely unpracticed at the NHL level. What is the saying if you don't use it you lose it. With regards to Harkins there was a noticeable shift in his game from when he was centering the top line on the Moose to how he played on the Jets. He was playing it safe, chipping out and chipping in even when he had room to skate it in. He still showed some creativity and some flashes of offense, but if you think back so did Jack in his half rookie year as well. I just worry that prolonged play in our bottom 6 will also see his offense and creativity largely coached out of him.

Heck I would even point to a player like Copp feeling he is being a bit held back being forced to play in a pure defensive checking role. We saw that in his last contract negotiation where he felt he was worth more and we have seen that in what he wants as a role going forward. I think the org might have trouble holding onto him long term if we keep him in a defensive role where he can't produce more points and maximize his earnings.

I think what @Mortimer Snerd and I are getting at is that the environment isn't there to foster offensive development in our bottom 6. Our bottom 6 has a very specific job and Maurice wants players who will do that job. If you are a skilled player then you need to greatly alter your game to be trusted in that role. As mentioned I would like to see a more Tampa Bay approach were players are allowed to play their games within the confines of the overall system no matter if they are on line 1 or 4. I find Maurice to be focused too much on the roles and how to fit people into the roles he wants filled, whereas I think a better approach is to focus on personnel and how to get the most out of each player he has.

Making a two/way line around Copp, Ves and Roslovic imo would not only help our team produce more but it would also help with individual player development and likely foster more good will with a number of middle of the roster caliber of players much like how Tampa is able to keep getting middle 6 talent signing extensions with them. Imo there have been far too many whispers of players not being happy with their usage in the bottom 6 and imo the risk adverse nature of Maurice is not helping matters here. I believe fairly strongly that if we iced a two-way third line most of these whispers would disappear as there would be a spot for players who aren't quite talented to bust into our top 6 to feel they have been put into a fair spot to maximize their point totals and therefore their contract values.

I found the below chart that a poster on here did with regards to scoring rates by line for each of the Canadian teams:

Simply put we lag behind most everyone here in terms of bottom 6 scoring. It seems quite clear to me that our setup is for our top 6 to score and our bottom 6 to defend. The teams we should be trying to emulate are Edmonton and Toronto where there is still scoring throughout there lineups.

Not that I don't agree with some of your points but I tend to lay the blame more on Chevy for our bottom 6 production. I'm a big Chevy fan, but most teams are much more willing to move on from their home grown prospects when they demonstrate they are easily replaceable. IMO we have a bad bottom 6 because we rarely if ever try to improve it in any significant way. We rely almost totally on later round draft picks to fill all bottom 6 spots, augmented by a "good" vet or 2. Then we blame Maurice when they don't produce. I'd argue that we give Maurice a more talented bottom 6 and see what he does with it. You mention TB as allowing players from lines 1-4 to play within the confines of their system, but fully 1/2 of their bottom 6 in the playoffs were aquired in trades because they were better options than internal depth. Then you mention Toronto and we should be more like them, but they went out and added Simmonds, Vesy and Thornton to fill out their bottom 6 this off season. Teams across the league have better bottom 6 players because their GM goes out and gets them rather than only wait on the next available prospect.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The part I disagree with is that our bottom 6 isn't developing well. Harkins and Appleton have both taken significant steps forward and got decent icetime. Appleton averaged over 11 minutes a game and Harkins was just under 11 minutes a game. Shore also isn't really comparable to Thompson. He is in the same age range as our younger core and he went in the 3rd round in the draft we selected Scheifele. If it makes you feel better pretend we drafted him instead of LA and he got his opportunity. Actually I would have liked Chevy to re-sign Shore. The one player who I think hasn't develop as well as he could have is Roslovic, but I'd bet against him being with the Jets next season. On the positive KV looks to be ready to take a significant step forward. When healthy I expect our bottom 6 to be some combination of Copp-Lowry-MP-Harkins-Appleton-KV. The problem is Chevy has left us too thin after that where Thompson is just an injury or 2 away and that is why I have advocated that we need/should sign someone who is a significant add in the bottom 6.

Yes, but none of Harkins, Appleton and Roslovic are getting a chance at 3C. That is a natural stepping stone to 2C. If things work out according to plan, we won't need that 2C so badly now, but that doesn't change the fact that they never had a shot at it, nor any path to a shot at it. And Harkins was press boxed in the play in.

I think Roslovic is developing about as well as could be expected when he is being put on a shutdown line with Copp and Lowry. It is a mantra we see here a lot. A player failing to wow us in a role he is not suited to.

Interestingly (I think) Rosie was picked 25th in '15. He has played the 25th most games among that class. He has also scored the 25th most goals among that class and 25th most assists. Seems to me to suggest that he is performing exactly where he should be for his draft position. BTW, he is 22nd in total points. Of course scoring isn't everything. There are also several Dmen in that top 25 too and we don't generally expect as much scoring from them. But then, lets also weight those numbers for the opportunity he has had, playing mostly with Copp & Lowry.

I think Roslovic gets under-appreciated here because he has not become the 2C we hoped he would. Disappointment colours perceptions.

 

[KingBogo]

Yes, but none of Harkins, Appleton and Roslovic are getting a chance at 3C. That is a natural stepping stone to 2C. If things work out according to plan, we won't need that 2C so badly now, but that doesn't change the fact that they never had a shot at it, nor any path to a shot at it. And Harkins was press boxed in the play in.

I think Roslovic is developing about as well as could be expected when he is being put on a shutdown line with Copp and Lowry. It is a mantra we see here a lot. A player failing to wow us in a role he is not suited to.

Interestingly (I think) Rosie was picked 25th in '15. He has played the 25th most games among that class. He has also scored the 25th most goals among that class and 25th most assists. Seems to me to suggest that he is performing exactly where he should be for his draft position. BTW, he is 22nd in total points. Of course scoring isn't everything. There are also several Dmen in that top 25 too and we don't generally expect as much scoring from them. But then, lets also weight those numbers for the opportunity he has had, playing mostly with Copp & Lowry.

I think Roslovic gets under-appreciated here because he has not become the 2C we hoped he would. Disappointment colours perceptions.

This doesn't really change my point. Good teams go out and acquire what they need, we instead spend year after year complaining about whatever prospect we like best not getting a chance to develop into that role if all things would just line up perfectly for them. I'm hopeful for Harkins as he seems to be a late bloomer and has a reputation for working extremely hard to improve his game. Saying that if he hasn't pushed his way into the #3 C or at least a mainstay as a winger on the 3rd line I'd be fine moving on from him as well.