Post-Game Talk: Nashville 3 Oilers 0

[Drivesaitl]

Ok
I still don't think I presented my argument disingenuously.

But perhaps it would help if I looked over my posts. I'm not exactly sure how to do that but I'll figure it out!

I don't mean to harp on this, and don't take it that way but when you state that a top players contribution is "shit" when that player is the top pts producer not found on the topline its kind of misrepresenting. Blanket statements usually are. Shit is probably not a good description.

Its easy to counter too. If Draisaitl is shit, are other players on the team nuclear waste? Because like it or not he's 3rd in production and the only two ahead of him are playing with each other all their 5 on 5 minutes and usually on PP. Draisaitl is playing his with a collection of players that had 0-34pts last season.

 

[RegDunlop]

Ok I've figured it out and gone through my responses.

"Head up his arse" in one, and "playing like s**t, in another.
These were clearly offered as opinions only. Nothing as a personal attack on him or derogatory 'blanket' statements as you've said.

I do apologize. But I feel you are either denying optics that a majority feel, blindly defending a player at any cost, or simply not willing to consider others opinion save for a select few.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He's been outscored 6-1 at 5v5 (so not counting ENGA). Is that... good?

Not sure where you are getting that from. Drai has been on ice for 4GA that are empty nets. Unfortunately in 2018 the NHL still tabulates that into +/- which for Drai is -7. -3 without the empty nets.

Is it good? Certainly not. But in what game have our QOT compared well with QOC and D pairings for 2nd line matchups. NYR by my account. In most games DRai is being out against hard comp and without a lot of help.

 

[RegDunlop]

I don't mean to harp on this, and don't take it that way but when you state that a top players contribution is "****" when that player is the top pts producer not found on the topline its kind of misrepresenting. Blanket statements usually are. **** is probably not a good description.

Its easy to counter too. If Draisaitl is ****, are other players on the team nuclear waste? Because like it or not he's 3rd in production and the only two ahead of him are playing with each other all their 5 on 5 minutes and usually on PP. Draisaitl is playing his with a collection of players that had 0-34pts last season.

What don't you understand about the fact that people of my opinion don't give a rat's ass about his points. If they were relevant to his play maybe.

Would you feel better if McD sucked and had only 3 points with Drai having 1, and no one else having any? Still second leading scorer but not playing to potential I would think.

As for your second part - If you want my honest opinion, and it pains me to say - but yes outside of a couple players, our team is mostly nuclear waste. Maybe not as individuals but collectively.

 

[dustrock]

You read, and pay for The Athletic and this is an opinion you choose to express.


So I'm just using this as exhibit A of poor quality posting. You can do better. we both know that.

Pretty sure you know by this point in your HF career these kinds of posts aren't helpful.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Ok I've figured it out and gone through my responses.

"Head up his arse" in one, and "playing like s**t, in another.
These were clearly offered as opinions only. Nothing as a personal attack on him or derogatory 'blanket' statements as you've said.

I do apologize. But I feel you are either denying optics that a majority feel, blindly defending a player at any cost, or simply not willing to consider others opinion save for a select few.

I don't defer to majority. I defer to information. If that information is well expressed its easy to attend to it and consider it. I can't consider opinions like "head up his arse" and "shit" because they don't mean anything.

But thanks for looking back at your posts and willingness to do that. It puts you well ahead of normal curve in reflection.

But hey. I could make comments about other players here using the same terms you used and I'd be stormed for doing it. Why is it OK for it to be stated about some players and not others?

 

[StevenF1919]

You read, and pay for The Athletic and this is an opinion you choose to express.

lets it break it down.

1)Draisaitl worst player on his line every game in your opinion

2) Put him in the press box until he stops pouting. Oh, OK, this club isn't bad enough..

3)effort abysmal

4Getting lit up. (Yeah, easy to do when around half your GA are empty nets.. This memo just in GA is statistically bad with goalie pulled. Who knew?

5) Are your advance analytics stats even telling you that 4 of the GA are empty nets.


So I'm just using this as exhibit A of poor quality posting. You can do better. we both know that.

The statistics I posted are all 5v5. 5v5 stats are used specifically because they eliminate empty net goals for/against. I'm well aware of the problems with empty net goals and +/-, which is why I never include them in my analysis. 5v5 (i.e no empty net goals), Draisaitl has a 1 GF and 6 GA. His 5v5 +/- is the worst on the team, his GA is the worst on the team, and his CF% is the worst on the team. To wave away his poor analytics because of empty net goals is ridiculous, considering no stat worth looking at factors in empty net goals to begin with.

I don't believe any of my other statements were innacurate. He's been consistently the worst player on his line, and his effort has been abysmal.

I agree that he hasn't been great, but I don't understand where this "pouting" narrative comes from. Where is there evidence that he's been visibly "pouting" away from McDavid? This sounds like something manufactured by MSM to create sensationalism.

I've noticed a steep change in effort level when Draisaitl has to center his own line. Obviously it could just be a coincidence but I've noticed it enough over the last 2 years that I think there's something to it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Pretty sure you know by this point in your HF career these kinds of posts aren't helpful.

Steven and I have had several pretty long discussions and can go at each other pretty hard. Nothing unpleasant is meant in the post. I'm being playful and tongue in cheek with it if it isn't evident. The background is Steven has several times tried to get me to subscribe and read "The Athletic" so thus my playful dig that perhaps his reading material isn't helping his analysis yet. I don't think Steven would be offended with what I stated and my apology if he is.

 

[StevenF1919]

Pretty sure you know by this point in your HF career these kinds of posts aren't helpful.

Pretty sure he's just joking haha.

 

[Little Fury]

Not sure where you are getting that from. Drai has been on ice for 4GA that are empty nets. Unfortunately in 2018 the NHL still tabulates that into +/- which for Drai is -7. -3 without the empty nets.

The Oilers have only given up three ENGA, not four. Regardless, the numbers I'm using are for 5v5 play only and Drai is getting filled in there.

Is it good? Certainly not. But in what game have our QOT compared well with QOC and D pairings for 2nd line matchups. NYR by my account. In most games DRai is being out against hard comp and without a lot of help

Oh sorry, I thought he was an elite player. I guess he's only being paid like one.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Pretty sure he's just joking haha.

Exactly good sir, and thanks.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The Oilers have only given up three ENGA, not four. Regardless, the numbers I'm using are for 5v5 play only and Drai is getting filled in there.



Oh sorry, I thought he was an elite player. I guess he's only being paid like one.

22 year old, still learning Drai is not an elite player. I'm not sure why he would be expected to be one this soon except if you're Chia tying everything to young players pulling the cart.

Drai is a player I forecast to have 60some pts this season. I knew it would be a struggle this season.

But look at a comparable like Kopitar in LA. This season missing in action (again) and 2 pts so far this season. Mysteriously benched in last game and then said to be sick. Then with the GM coming in already at game 6 and calling out the entire team for being junk

shit happens.

understand as well my take is that it would be a good career for Drai just to approximate Kopitar. But we have a fanbase here far less patient for a player just adopting defensive play primarily.

 

[RegDunlop]

I don't defer to majority. I defer to information. If that information is well expressed its easy to attend to it and consider it. I can't consider opinions like "head up his arse" and "****" because they don't mean anything.

But thanks for looking back at your posts and willingness to do that. It puts you well ahead of normal curve in reflection.

But hey. I could make comments about other players here using the same terms you used and I'd be stormed for doing it. Why is it OK for it to be stated about some players and not others?

Sorry - again with respect I don't agree. I offered playing like. .... and head up .... as descriptive slang of my opinions. These being common sayings I dont think it was unjustified or shoumd be taken in the same concept as a personal attack of character like 'he's garbage' or 'worse player ever'.

I don't buy the argument that you could perhaps be somehow unresponsive to these posts. The ridiculous ones, I agree with you about and I as well ignore them.

But I'll always try to back up my opinion, correct any harsh or derogatory comments I may make if offensive (I'm human), and engage the other side of my opinion as well.

You seem well educated and knowledgeable. Again I don't quite believe your stance as I feel you are incorrectly defending an argument that has no merit.

 

[Little Fury]

22 year old, still learning Drai is not an elite player. I'm not sure why he would be expected to be one this soon except if you're Chia tying everything to young players pulling the cart.

In a league where 7 of the top 10 scorers right now are 25 or under, I don't think age is the excuse it once was.

Drai is a player I forecast to have 60some pts this season. I knew it would be a struggle this season.

A 60 point 2C is fine, but he's not making 60 point money.

understand as well my take is that it would be a good career for Drai just to approximate Kopitar. But we have a fanbase here far less patient for a player just adopting defensive play primarily.

If Drai is not producing because he's focusing on defense, well, that just makes things look worse because he's not getting the job done there either.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Sorry - again with respect I don't agree. I offered playing like. .... and head up .... as descriptive slang of my opinions. These being common sayings I dont think it was unjustified or shoumd be taken in the same concept as a personal attack of character like 'he's garbage' or 'worse player ever'.

I don't buy the argument that you could perhaps be somehow unresponsive to these posts. The ridiculous ones, I agree with you about and I as well ignore them.

But I'll always try to back up my opinion, correct any harsh or derogatory comments I may make if offensive (I'm human), and engage the other side of my opinion as well.

You seem well educated and knowledgeable. Again I don't quite believe your stance as I feel you are incorrectly defending an argument that has no merit.

Hey I'll take the fifth and say I'm human too.

We all try to be objective. The reality is we often don't see beyond our noses and get surprised constantly in life by incoming we didn't see coming...

This is way off topic but cognitive perception is so complex. Human processing is so geared to filling in the dots with subjective noise. Even our perceptual senses do this.


One of the most intelligent individuals in my lifetime, Bobby Fisher, thought so much, about so much, that he became insane like several grandmasters. If a mind as brilliant as that gets filled with distortions what hope is there, really, of clarity, for any of us?

haha, way too much for a Monday morning. I just mean this humorously as well but if its interesting too then that's good.

 

[Mez]

wow it seems like every freakin thread is a Draisaitl debate. You guys know there is a thread titled
"Leon Draisaitl '18-19 Season"

 

[RegDunlop]

wow it seems like every freakin thread is a Draisaitl debate. You guys know there is a thread titled
"Leon Draisaitl '18-19 Season"

Yes
And agree I certainly need to take any further discussion on him there. I'm quite sure I more than made my opinion clear!

Thanks

 

[Drivesaitl]

In a league where 7 of the top 10 scorers right now are 25 or under, I don't think age is the excuse it once was.



A 60 point 2C is fine, but he's not making 60 point money.



If Drai is not producing because he's focusing on defense, well, that just makes things look worse because he's not getting the job done there either.

The age rebuttal is fair. You're right. But most of those players have quality vet fallback on their club. The Oilers have mostly unhelpful vets.

60pts? Oilers don't typically have a great PP, they don't have good D for the PP, and the don't have useful PMD's to help the club transition or support offense in 5 on 5 or PP.

For instance its easier to collect points in Tampa than Edmonton. True or false?


Defensively? Been some groans. Drai forcing it, having trouble relaxing, making smart plays. What worries me is he expects so much from himself offensively that he can cheat to that which isn't being helpful. I do think sometimes a contract can be the worst thing for players and that it just produces frustration to perform at a level not commensurate with the players ability do to so.

A 2C maybe shouldn't be paid this much. But that's not really Drai's fault. Who would really say; "Nah, I don't want that much, lets throw some back" Although he has done that, to charity.

 

[CycloneSweep]

4 of those goals are empty net goals ftr. Should be minus 2 though even considering those. Not sure where the -7 came from, should be -6. It was -4 before last night and with 2 of those having been empty net goals.

I guess its Drai's fault he's on the ice to increase the chance of the Oilers being able to score a goal...

In anycase what the stat is showing, more than anything, is empty net GA. Really I'm astounded in this stat analytics day and age there are not separate counts and columns for that. GA empty net are innately not the same as GA with goalie.

His possession numbers as I have shown already are second worst on the team to only Kassian. And that's with both sets of wingers.

His scoring chance % is worst on the team, and he has the 5 highest % of offensive zone starts.

All his state have pointed to that he is getting caved in at 5v5. He has been on the ice for 1 goal for 5v5 and 6 against, which is worst on the team.

He hasn't been very good at driving offense or playing well defensively this season at all. He has made some good offense when playing with McDavid on special teams but outside of that he has struggled.

I know he is better and will be better. But ignoring everything and just saying "Draisaitl good lol I see him please playing great even though he isn't"

TLDR: His stats point to a player that is struggling and the eye test backs it up. He will improve.

 

[Drivesaitl]

His possession numbers as I have shown already are second worst on the team to only Kassian. And that's with both sets of wingers.

His scoring chance % is worst on the team, and he has the 5 highest % of offensive zone starts.

All his state have pointed to that he is getting caved in at 5v5. He has been on the ice for 1 goal for 5v5 and 6 against, which is worst on the team.

He hasn't been very good at driving offense or playing well defensively this season at all. He has made some good offense when playing with McDavid on special teams but outside of that he has struggled.

I know he is better and will be better. But ignoring everything and just saying "Draisaitl good lol I see him please playing great even though he isn't"

TLDR: His stats point to a player that is struggling and the eye test backs it up. He will improve.

Good post but can you bring this to the Drai thread? lets move it over there folks!

 

[Little Fury]

The age rebuttal is fair. You're right. But most of those players have quality vet fallback on their club. The Oilers have mostly unhelpful vets.

They also have the best player in the world taking the hard matchups.

60pts? Oilers don't typically have a great PP, they don't have good D for the PP, and the don't have useful PMD's to help the club transition or support offense in 5 on 5 or PP.

For instance its easier to collect points in Tampa than Edmonton. True or false?

Defensively? Been some groans. Drai forcing it, having trouble relaxing, making smart plays. What worries me is he expects so much from himself offensively that he can cheat to that which isn't being helpful. I do think sometimes a contract can be the worst thing for players and that it just produces frustration to perform at a level not commensurate with the players ability do to so.

I agree on the depth and the D, and you probably know what I think of the guy who built the team this way.

But if you take that away and just focus on Drai's game and his game alone: is he doing enough? I don't think that he is. Maybe he's overcompensating, maybe he caught Lucic disease, I dunno, but I don't think he's bringing enough to the table from what I've seen.

A 2C maybe shouldn't be paid this much. But that's not really Drai's fault. Who would really say; "Nah, I don't want that much, lets throw some back" Although he has done that, to charity

McDavid did.

Honestly, we'd be better off paying Connor $15M and Drai $6.5M. Same damage, but the value would be closer to the reality.

 

[Duke74]

The age rebuttal is fair. You're right. But most of those players have quality vet fallback on their club. The Oilers have mostly unhelpful vets.

60pts? Oilers don't typically have a great PP, they don't have good D for the PP, and the don't have useful PMD's to help the club transition or support offense in 5 on 5 or PP.

For instance its easier to collect points in Tampa than Edmonton. True or false?


Defensively? Been some groans. Drai forcing it, having trouble relaxing, making smart plays. What worries me is he expects so much from himself offensively that he can cheat to that which isn't being helpful. I do think sometimes a contract can be the worst thing for players and that it just produces frustration to perform at a level not commensurate with the players ability do to so.

A 2C maybe shouldn't be paid this much. But that's not really Drai's fault. Who would really say; "Nah, I don't want that much, lets throw some back" Although he has done that, to charity.

You bring up an interesting point when you mention his charity efforts. I wonder if his agent suggested it as a way of trying to take some pressure off of the discussion about him underperforming relative to his salary? In other words, since he gave some of his money back to the community, he thinks people will stop harassing him about taking too much money. Just a thought.

 

[Soundwave]

They also have the best player in the world taking the hard matchups.



I agree on the depth and the D, and you probably know what I think of the guy who built the team this way.

But if you take that away and just focus on Drai's game and his game alone: is he doing enough? I don't think that he is. Maybe he's overcompensating, maybe he caught Lucic disease, I dunno, but I don't think he's bringing enough to the table from what I've seen.



McDavid did.

Honestly, we'd be better off paying Connor $15M and Drai $6.5M. Same damage, but the value would be closer to the reality.

And why should Draisaitl take "only" $6.5 million when he completely obliterated RNH, Eberle, and Lucic in production (the other $6 million players) and the cap had inflated quite a bit?

 

[Little Fury]

And why should Draisaitl take "only" $6.5 million when he completely obliterated RNH, Eberle, and Lucic in production (the other $6 million players) and the cap had inflated quite a bit?

I doubt he would have got that scratch if they hadn't spoon fed him all that McDavid time or read so much into a five game playoff heater.

 

[Soundwave]

I doubt he would have got that scratch if they hadn't spoon fed him all that McDavid time or read so much into a five game playoff heater.

RNH got $6 million (9.3% of the cap at the time) for 24 points in 40 game performance (49 point pro-rated), including an abysmal 4 goals (8 goal season pro-rated).

Leon got 10.4% of the cap for a 77 point season (8th or 9th in the league in scoring) and outscoring McDavid in the playoffs.

Just things that make you go "hmmmmm".