Post-Game Talk: Nashville 3 Oilers 0

[RegDunlop]

It's not an excuse, it's a reality.

There are only maybe 15 forwards total on planet Earth that can carry a line of dog **** and still perform.

That would be McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, P. Kane, MacKinnon, Hall, Ovechkin, Matthews, Gaudreau, Tavares, Kucherov, maybe Kopitar, maybe Seguin, maybe Stamkos. And after that it gets really thin.

Leon is not in that group but he is still immensely valuable and the Oilers are very lucky to have him. But he is of the tier below that needs help on his wing to produce.

That doesn't make him a bad player. It means your management needs to understand they have to have adequete talent levels. There is your problem. Not Draisaitl.

Draisaitl will be a 70+ point power center that beasts in the face off dot and has great vision, but to unlock that you need to give him something reasonable to work with.

Don't totally disagree but I would counter again with this whole driving line business is nonsense.

To me, each and every one of those players need Complimentary help in the success they enjoy.
For this point, you're right that Leon does too. But it's not as if he can't be productive at all and play his style of game without it.

If I use your theory, I would say that only a select few in the history of the game could 'drive without help. Conner, Gretz, Mario, etc among them.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

The overall depth players need to be better offensively on this team, and that's likely made it tough for Draisaitl, but he clearly needs to be better.

 

[dssource]

Tough loss against what will likely be the stanley cup champs this year. We hung in there for half the game and if not for PK taking adv of a blunder at the blue line, it still could have gone either way. The team still played well for the most part. Suck it up and look forward to the next game.

On the Bouchard debate, normally I would say to send him down. But I just don't see how they can. He has definitely shown that he is our 5th best D on most nights. He doesn't look out of place but def needs to grow his defensive game. They should have been playing Bear (on opposite nights, def not 2 rookies together) as well just to see if he can do what Bouchard is doing. It's not just that we have no one to replace Bouchard, which we don't, it's the fact that he is playing well.

 

[RegDunlop]

Well apparently I do have to ask because again I don't get it. Drai is one of the few quality players we have. I don't see the rationale in faulting him for everything or such ludicrous suggestion as "he's crap" and "Playing like ****"

Gross generalizations are usually just that.

I agree about the dumb generic statements.

But not about comparing him to top line.

 

[guymez]

Why are you punishing him for scoring points with McDavid? Why is that a bad thing?

Are you suggesting that Leon has done enough? That he is as good as he needs to be for this team?

 

[guymez]

Without McDavid, Draisaitl is on pace for 0 points.
He is our second line center being paid 8.5 million per year.

Exactly.
He didnt get an $8.5M contract to be a complimentary winger. He got that contract primarily because of what he accomplished in the playoffs...which was to drive a line. To give this team a much needed 1 - 2 punch down the middle.

So...myself and others (I am assuming you as well) are waiting for Leon to show that playoff run wasnt just a one off...a fluke.
Time for him to put his big boy pants on and get to work.

 

[dustrock]

Draisaitl needs to be better at 5v5. He also needs better wingers.

Let's not blame him for making $8.5m/year after a great playoffs in 2017. That's on Chiarelli.

 

[RegDunlop]

Drai was drafted 3rd and has exceeded all expectations of what he was expected to become. He's become the best German player ever produced. He's better than two of the players we've spend a #1 pick on, he's only 22.

"The truth" Your opinion does not constitute the truth. Wheres your proof the player is "lackadaisaical or disinterested" or that he's "providing none of the traits" for which he was drafted.

Wheres your citation for what the "whole ****ing league and players think"

Sorry. My misrepresentation.
I should have inferred that it was my opinion.

Yes I think you are correct in stating he has exceeded expectations. But I stand behind my conviction that he has played disinterested and lackadaisical. Not just to me, but to many fans, media, and casual observers.

If I said he was then I apologize. As that's I'd professing to know his thoughts and actions.

Not sure how I worded it, but I should have said he LOOKS TO ME, like he's playing that way.

And my proof is my eye test, granted opinion only, but one in entitled to and shared by many.

Keep in mind that I am a huge Drai fan. And I'm simply stating something is wrong with his play.

 

[guymez]

Draisaitl needs to be better at 5v5. He also needs better wingers.

Let's not blame him for making $8.5m/year after a great playoffs in 2017. That's on Chiarelli.

Who were his wingers in the playoffs?

 

[Little Fury]

IMo it's time to bump Nuge down to Drai's wing to see if that gives him a spark. McDavid will be fine with lesser linemates, but clearly Drai needs someone to hold his hand.

 

[guymez]

IMo it's time to bump Nuge down to Drai's wing to see if that gives him a spark. McDavid will be fine with lesser linemates, but clearly Drai needs someone to hold his hand.

As a temporary measure I would be fine with this.
Whatever it takes. to light a fire under him.

 

[RegDunlop]

Honestly I could care less what anyone on twitter, blogs, pundits etc say, I am stating my personal opinion based off watching the games. He is playing like crap, and if that unacceptable to you...fine. What is unacceptable to me is Draisaitl not playing anywhere near his potential while being paid very well, and we rely on him. If 8 shots in 6 games, 0 points without McDavid in 6 games, worst +/- on the team is ok with you, then call my criticism unjustified.

I have no idea why you are replying to me about people calling him an idiot or moron. I never said any of that, go ahead and take up your complaints with them.

Im not saying to run him out of town, Im saying he is playing very poorly and needs to step it up a lot as he is very capable of MUCH better play.



What is ridiculous is wearing some players jock over your eyes and running around chanting his name no matter what he does. I see you come in on every thread after the game praising Draisaitl like he did nothing wrong and in fact did turn water to wine. This is the EXACT same thing you used to do with Yakupov with his "sublime" plays. You also would compare Yakupov to Eberle to try and gain some points somehow for your guy, exact same thing you are doing with RNH now.

You were claiming before the season that Reider was the man to play with Draisaitl because he had time with him in International hockey, now he sucks. Yamamoto sucks with Draisaitl cuz he always falls down and losses the puck in all his battles. Yamamoto looked pretty good on McDavids line and won his share of battles.

If Draisaitl can't elevate some of these other player's play, then we signed the wrong guy to 8.5 million dollars, its that simple. He cant have 8 shots in 6 games, he cant have the worst plus minus on the team, and he must score at least 1 point in 6 games without McDavid because he is supposed to be our second best player by quite a margin.

As far as the last game against Nashville, no one looked good. If you play a trap team with very good dmen, play dump and chase, you have to get in really fast on the forecheck and beat down the D. We did that for about 2 shifts. I hate this coach.

As far as what Nuge did on his own last time he centered, 43 points and close to 40 are without McDavids help and never on 1rst string PP, used evenly on dzone - ozone starts ...it also took us to the playoffs. You might want to check what Draisaitl has done on his own. I dont want to compare the two as you are doing, but open your eyes and mind a little....remove the strap.

Wow.
I don't have quite the same... venom but I agree 100% with your post.

I can't understand why some can't see that we are fans if him, but he is not above accountability.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Of course you cant see the rational of anyone saying anything bad about Draisaitl, in your eyes he can do no wrong. You cant grasp the concept that he's a good player not playing well, and needs to step it up.

I can grasp any rationale that is adequately substantiated and fairly stated and corroborated. I have less inclination to agree with blanket *assessments* like he is junk, terrible, worst player on the team" all of which have been stated.

Maybe I'm having trouble hearing the signal in the noise but offer it up and I'll look at it.

 

[Little Fury]

Why are you punishing him for scoring points with McDavid? Why is that a bad thing?

Because being a one-line team doesn't get you very far.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Honestly I could care less what anyone on twitter, blogs, pundits etc say, I am stating my personal opinion based off watching the games. He is playing like crap, and if that unacceptable to you...fine. What is unacceptable to me is Draisaitl not playing anywhere near his potential while being paid very well, and we rely on him. If 8 shots in 6 games, 0 points without McDavid in 6 games, worst +/- on the team is ok with you, then call my criticism unjustified.

I have no idea why you are replying to me about people calling him an idiot or moron. I never said any of that, go ahead and take up your complaints with them.

Im not saying to run him out of town, Im saying he is playing very poorly and needs to step it up a lot as he is very capable of MUCH better play.



What is ridiculous is wearing some players jock over your eyes and running around chanting his name no matter what he does. I see you come in on every thread after the game praising Draisaitl like he did nothing wrong and in fact did turn water to wine. This is the EXACT same thing you used to do with Yakupov with his "sublime" plays. You also would compare Yakupov to Eberle to try and gain some points somehow for your guy, exact same thing you are doing with RNH now.

You were claiming before the season that Reider was the man to play with Draisaitl because he had time with him in International hockey, now he sucks. Yamamoto sucks with Draisaitl cuz he always falls down and losses the puck in all his battles. Yamamoto looked pretty good on McDavids line and won his share of battles.

If Draisaitl can't elevate some of these other player's play, then we signed the wrong guy to 8.5 million dollars, its that simple. He cant have 8 shots in 6 games, he cant have the worst plus minus on the team, and he must score at least 1 point in 6 games without McDavid because he is supposed to be our second best player by quite a margin.

As far as the last game against Nashville, no one looked good. If you play a trap team with very good dmen, play dump and chase, you have to get in really fast on the forecheck and beat down the D. We did that for about 2 shifts. I hate this coach.

As far as what Nuge did on his own last time he centered, 43 points and close to 40 are without McDavids help and never on 1rst string PP, used evenly on dzone - ozone starts ...it also took us to the playoffs. You might want to check what Draisaitl has done on his own. I dont want to compare the two as you are doing, but open your eyes and mind a little....remove the strap.

What am I even supposed to take from this post? Is it OK to respect the contributions of any players here? Is it alright with you that I do that?

Lets see above, your assessment is Rieder sucks on the basis of 6 GP. OK, seems completely reasonable..

Next, if I happen to deviate from your thoughts on a player its all my distortion and I should open my eyes and see things your way...just because, you know, my opinion causes you some undescribed consternation and its important to change it..

You realize its possible, and completely reasonable for people to have differing, dissenting opinions.

Its hilarious I'm being told to stop being convincing about a players attributes and should instead blindly adopt a myopic view that Leon Draisaitl is junk, and just because that's the popular mind meld here the past couple weeks in scapegoating the player over 6 games..

 

[RegDunlop]

I can grasp any rationale that is adequately substantiated and fairly stated and corroborated. I have less inclination to agree with blanket *assessments* like he is junk, terrible, worst player on the team" all of which have been stated.

Maybe I'm having trouble hearing the signal in the noise but offer it up and I'll look at it.

But you respond to posters that are offering opinion on him without saying 'he's junk. Terrible, worse player on the team'.

I've never said that, nor habe many others who are championing my opinion.

Where's your rationale for that?

 

[Drivesaitl]

Wow.
I don't have quite the same... venom but I agree 100% with your post.

I can't understand why some can't see that we are fans if him, but he is not above accountability.

Well, quite fortunately players are not held accountable to such myopic description as "he sucks" "is junk" "worst player on the team" etc.

If I saw even adequately expressed rationale on specific concerns with the player it would certainly be something to discuss. But in the absence of that I'm responding to the noise which I shouldn't either.

Maybe in another PGT there could be better discussion. I do feel some posters in the thread have engaged the discussion well and supported their pov.

 

[Drivesaitl]

But you respond to posters that are offering opinion on him without saying 'he's junk. Terrible, worse player on the team'.

I've never said that, nor habe many others who are championing my opinion.

Where's your rationale for that?

You've certainly made several blanket statements on the players play in this thread. So whether you think you haven't is immaterial. You have. I do accept your apology for doing so, it isn't required. But the main reason I come here is to have rationale and informed discussion on hockey. I think its great when that happens. I know you can bring the same as well but its very difficult to reasonably respond to statements that are not very reasonable and that sound instead reactive.

I don't know if its the game to game frustration as fans that causes distortions but its certainly in evidence.

Hey, last year I developed a pattern when players were being scapegoated of breaking down and listing the good plays actually made by them in a game. In response to myriad comments that "X player did nothing" I might do that again. I'm reasonably good at keying in on players and breaking down their minutes in a game. that might be a way to improve the discussion.

The hard thing when tuning into any thread is when reasonable posters adopt unreasonable positions. Which is easy to do when such things are commonly expressed.

You cite plurality repeatedly as if its meaningful or enlightening. But also without knowing what the common opinion is. None of us do. But more people having one opinion is not indicative of proof, it is not beyond refutation, its simply adopting an expressed opinion. I prefer to develop my own opinions and substantiate positions.

 

[StevenF1919]

For all the talk of how bad Drai's wingers are, has there been a game this year where he hasn't been the worst player on his line?

I'd stick him in the press box until he stops pouting about how he doesn't get to play on a line with Connor anymore. His effort level has been abysmal and he's been fed a ton of offensive zone starts and is still getting lit up. 2nd last on the team this year in 5v5 shot attempts, last in scoring chances, last in high danger scoring chances, brutal GF%...

 

[RegDunlop]

You've certainly made several blanket statements on the players play in this thread. So whether you think you haven't is immaterial. You have. I do accept your apology for doing so, it isn't required. But the main reason I come here is to have rationale and informed discussion on hockey. I think its great when that happens. I know you can bring the same as well but its very difficult to reasonably respond to statements that are not very reasonable and that sound instead reactive.

I don't know if its the game to game frustration as fans that causes distortions but its certainly in evidence.

Hey, last year I developed a pattern when players were being scapegoated of breaking down and listing the good plays actually made by them in a game. In response to myriad comments that "X player did nothing" I might do that again. I'm reasonably good at keying in on players and breaking down their minutes in a game. that might be a way to improve the discussion.

And that analysis is welcomed.

But let's just say I respectfully disagree with your entire scope on some subjects such as Leon Draisaitl.

And that's ok. I'm sure you feel the same as that's what being a integrity and passion!

Cheers!

 

[Duke74]

For all the talk of how bad Drai's wingers are, has there been a game this year where he hasn't been the worst player on his line?

I'd stick him in the press box until he stops pouting about how he doesn't get to play on a line with Connor anymore. His effort level has been abysmal and he's been fed a ton of offensive zone starts and is still getting lit up. 2nd last on the team this year in 5v5 shot attempts, last in scoring chances, last in high danger scoring chances, brutal GF%...

I agree that he hasn't been great, but I don't understand where this "pouting" narrative comes from. Where is there evidence that he's been visibly "pouting" away from McDavid? This sounds like something manufactured by MSM to create sensationalism.

 

[Drivesaitl]

And that analysis is welcomed.

But let's just say I respectfully disagree with your entire scope on some subjects such as Leon Draisaitl.

And that's ok. I'm sure you feel the same as that's what being a integrity and passion!

Cheers!

Absolutely you or anybody can and maybe even should disagree if that's what you feel. But lets have the discussion enlighten, inform, instead of distort. I'm sure you agree. I come here to learn some things from other posters and try to respect others contributions. But if the dialog goes real south its harder to treat the information out here with the respect I want to give it.

I'll cite an example. @TheNumber4 has made several well thought and informed posts in the thread. Some even disagreeing with my take but well expressed. I can appreciate posts like that anytime. Look at the posters work in this thread. kudos to those kinds of contributions.

 

[RegDunlop]

Absolutely you or anybody can and maybe even should disagree if that's what you feel. But lets have the discussion enlighten, inform, instead of distort. I'm sure you agree. I come here to learn some things from other posters and try to respect others contributions. But if the dialog goes real south its harder to treat the information out here with the respect I want to give it.

I'll cite an example. @TheNumber4 has made several well thought and informed posts in the thread. Some even disagreeing with my take but well expressed. I can appreciate posts like that anytime. Look at the posters work in this thread. kudos to those kinds of contributions.

Ok
I still don't think I presented my argument disingenuously.

But perhaps it would help if I looked over my posts. I'm not exactly sure how to do that but I'll figure it out!

 

[Drivesaitl]

For all the talk of how bad Drai's wingers are, has there been a game this year where he hasn't been the worst player on his line?

I'd stick him in the press box until he stops pouting about how he doesn't get to play on a line with Connor anymore. His effort level has been abysmal and he's been fed a ton of offensive zone starts and is still getting lit up. 2nd last on the team this year in 5v5 shot attempts, last in scoring chances, last in high danger scoring chances, brutal GF%...

You read, and pay for The Athletic and this is an opinion you choose to express.

lets it break it down.

1)Draisaitl worst player on his line every game in your opinion

2) Put him in the press box until he stops pouting. Oh, OK, this club isn't bad enough..

3)effort abysmal

4Getting lit up. (Yeah, easy to do when around half your GA are empty nets.. This memo just in GA is statistically bad with goalie pulled. Who knew?

5) Are your advance analytics stats even telling you that 4 of the GA are empty nets.


So I'm just using this as exhibit A of poor quality posting. You can do better. we both know that.

 

[Little Fury]

You read, and pay for The Athletic and this is an opinion you choose to express.

4Getting lit up. (Yeah, easy to do when around half your GA are empty nets.. This memo just in GA is statistically bad with goalie pulled. Who knew?

5) Are your advance analytics stats even telling you that 4 of the GA are empty nets.

So I'm just using this as exhibit A of poor quality posting. You can do better. we both know that.

He's been outscored 6-1 at 5v5 (so not counting ENGA). Is that... good?