News Article: Murray likely to step down after season, will pick his own successor

[ChocolateLeclaire]

That and the sweet video of Preissing walking around the mall asking people if they knew who he was and no one had a clue.

I'm pretty sure he does that around malls in LA today. The follow-up question is if they can spare some change.

 

[Micklebot]

You know what i see when i look up Vermette on hockey db. A regular 20 goal scorer. Guess what? he regularly scored 20 goals in seasons away from the sens and away from stillman. Vermette doesnt need any help to score 20 goals. How many primary assists were on Vermette goals? Surely you arent going to attribute a guy who clearly is capable of scoring 20 goals only scoring 20 goals in a season because of Stillman. I mean had eaves stayed on the team its realistic that hes could have given as many assists to Vermette as Stillman. Thats pretty gosh darn surprising

Career shooting percentage at its lowest well being on the sens? Well gosh jolly jee sounds like he sucked at scoring goals on the sens in a small sample size.

I never once said i place huge value on eaves rookie season. I'd more say he proved he could score 20 goals and if he could have remained healthy throughout his NHL career i wouldnt have been surprised if he was a regular 20 goal scorer on a second line.


Stillman is what he is. A second line aging ufa. If people want to applaud how much his stanley cup rings helped us in the playoffs...Go ahead. If people want to applaud his career low shooting percentage and 3 goals in ottawa because it was high in the past... go ahead. If people want to take credit away from vermette because he scored more goals when stillman was on the team... go ahead. If people want to jump for joy at stillmans -8 go ahead. I know in my mind i wouldnt have traded eaves for Stillman. I know i wouldnt have traded corvo for Commodore. This is the way i felt when the trade was made this is how i feel nearly 10 years later.


Just to be clear.. Did you critize me for using a small sample size when when it came to stillman's goal scoring then used 26 games to project a career year from Vermette?

Just to be clear, I said they found instant chemistry, and used the time together as evidence. Do you disagree that Vermette played exceptionally immediately following our acquisition of Stillman? It was a very commonly held belief at the time, I'm not sure why it's suddenly in debate.

You also clearly do place huge value on eaves rookie season, as you claim it as proof that he's capable of scoring 20 goals, when it was evident watching him that he wasn't really a 20 goal scorer at that time. Unsustainable sh% made that season, and he never produced like that again, in fact his goal scoring droped year after year. One flukey season proves nothing, unless you think Butler or Regin proved anything in their first seasons.

As for it being realistic that Eaves could have done just as much or assisted on just as many of Vermette's goals, why? What in the world suggest that Eaves, a shooter never known as a playmaker, could do anythign of the sort?

I feel as though your looking back at the stats and ignoring/forgetting the play on the ice. Eaves wasn't a special talent. Expectations weren't that high for him, it would have been a big win for us had he amounted to what you assume he would have become. Add to that, he was already getting into injury troubles with us and I'm not sure why we're even still talking about this.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Just to be clear, I said they found instant chemistry, and used the time together as evidence. Do you disagree that Vermette played exceptionally immediately following our acquisition of Stillman? It was a very commonly held belief at the time, I'm not sure why it's suddenly in debate.

You also clearly do place huge value on eaves rookie season, as you claim it as proof that he's capable of scoring 20 goals, when it was evident watching him that he wasn't really a 20 goal scorer at that time. Unsustainable sh% made that season, and he never produced like that again, in fact his goal scoring droped year after year. One flukey season proves nothing, unless you think Butler or Regin proved anything in their first seasons.

As for it being realistic that Eaves could have done just as much or assisted on just as many of Vermette's goals, why? What in the world suggest that Eaves, a shooter never known as a playmaker, could do anythign of the sort?

I feel as though your looking back at the stats and ignoring/forgetting the play on the ice. Eaves wasn't a special talent. Expectations weren't that high for him, it would have been a big win for us had he amounted to what you assume he would have become. Add to that, he was already getting into injury troubles with us and I'm not sure why we're even still talking about this.

No .. i suggested Vermette could have gotten just as many assists on eaves goals as he did stillman's. Vermette benefited at most 3 assists on Stillman goals.

Vermette played well after Stillman got here. I could probably pick out other seasons where players had hot stretch similar to vermette with stillman.

Eaves wasnt something special but he certainly was capable of hovering around 20 goals if he was healthy. 13 goals in 63 games 12 in 65 . Bump up his minutes to the second line and have him play out both seasons back to back well being healthy and 20 goals was not out of the question. This guy scored 20 goals as a rookie. How many rookies score 20 goals in 58 games? Suggesting hes not skilled is also kinda silly. His healthiest seasons hes always had a shooting percentage above normal. Not 20 percent high but if you eliminate is highest and lowest seasons hes around 11 percent when he was largely healthy. Couple this with decent speed and you have a good player.


So here what we know about Vermette. He regularly can score 20 goals. Stillman at most contributed 3 assists to Vermettes point totals on his goals. Stillman likely didnt contribute on every single vermette point. I tend to give Vermette a lot more credit then ill give stillman

You've already said you think it was a bad trade. No need getting strung up on why other people think it was bad

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Poor Murray

 

[pepty]

Not that I'm in favour of Lee, but he's been with the org forever and may well have been being groomed the entire time. I mean, Yzerman never had any GM experience before being named GM of team canada a year after retiring as a player. 4 years later, he's GM of the lightning.

Lee on the other hand has a Masters in Sports Admin, and has been director of hockey ops and player development for the last 5 years with 19 years experience in the front office (with the sens).

If they are going to stick with in house Randy Lee would be fine .I think he has done a lot to keep the Sens respectable in good times and bad.I just would like to see more ideas from out side the present management team.

 

[Qward]

Some of you guys seem to think the GM does everything for the team. In 90% of the cases, the GM just gets the final say.

Drafting - The scouting staff are the ones that make up the list of players they want and in the order they want them. Dorion has commented in interviews about bringing BM to QMJHL games and stating "This is the guy we are drafting." With BM making a comment "Too small." jokingly.

Contracts - As much as we like to blame BM for the bad ones, we don't know which ones he handled. The AGM's usually deal with the contracts and tell BM that is the best we are going to get and Murray either approving or saying no. If you watch the NHL special between the Wings and the Leafs before the outdoor game, you see it wasn't Nonis that was working on the Dion Phaneuf contract but one of the AGM. The AGM even commented "We worked out term, now we are just working on dollars." With Nonis saying "ok."

Trading. This is where the GM pulls most of his weight. Pro scouts will still tell about players coming in and out, but it is the GM's that talk to each other and propose offers. (Once again with assistance from Pro scouting staff.) The Pro scouting staff are the ones that watch every game, go to the games and focus on the players. They are the ones that often look beyond the numbers and see how the player behaves.

This is why I wouldn't mind Shero. He may not have the best draft history. But he got G of the year for the trades he made to make his cup runs. Neal for Goligoski anyone? Look what he gave up for Iginla. Nothing. He knew Fleury was iffy. So he brought in Vokoun. Not his fault Vokoun would get ill and have to retire.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Shero also got Hossa for scraps from Atlanta too.

 

[Senateurs]

Really? I heard that neither are going to be the GM.

Considering Shero is a close family friend of Melynk's and he worked in the org as an assistant GM before he went to Pittsburgh, I'd say he's the favorite.

Not to mention he's been seen sitting in Eugene's owner's box at a handful of games this season.

I saw him in the media pressbox but not in Melnyk's own box? Are you sure about that?

Anyways, Shero is my first option too.


As for the Corvo/Stillman trade, I loved it then, I still love it today. With this trade, we were adding 3 rings and 4 SC finals and over 100 playoffs games.
We went to the finals the year before with our only SC winner sitting on the bench. Interestingly, he also won his SC sitting on the bench. Our lack of playoff experience was one of the reasons we lost and it was often the main reason we lost all those series against Toronto.

We have to remember that the salary cap following the 05 lockout hurt us more than any other team. We had a bunch of emerging superstars and had to trade or let go a few of them in order to be under the cap. We also had to let go some depth to re-sign some players. In a perfect world, we would've kept Stillman and Commodore but this trade was exactly what it was supposed to be. Two UFA's to help for the playoffs.

As for the result on the ice, the team was in a complete nosedive after the best start in franchise history. There was no way we could stop the bleeding. Stillman had 19 pts in 24 games, I have no idea why some fans are complaining about that. It's our goaltending that sucked. Gerber was so bad and our D had so little confidence in him that they were all over the place trying to overcompensate for him.

Emery had his problems and the team wanted to give him a lesson. I'm fine with that, but I was one of the few Emery supporters here and still think to this day that he deserved a second chance considering he brought us to the finals with a hand injury 12 months before.

Also, I put some blame on our coaching. Instead of having three balanced pairings.

Redden-Commodore
Phillips-Volchekov
Meszaors-Richardsson
extra:Schubert-Lee

Paddock went with

Redden-Meszaros (two offensive guys with 0 defense)
Philchenkov (shut down pair)
Richardsson-Commodore (slowest pair in the history of hockey with 0 offense)

Like someone mentioned before, Stillman had great chemistry with Vermette, but Stillman played most of his time with Fisher, who was on a slump for the ages after signing a 4 year extension. So instead of using Vermette as the #2 centre, Fisher was given months to get his game back on track.

 

[StefanW]

I know I am in the minority, but I'm not a fan of Shero at all. The Pens won the cup on the strength of drafting Malkin and Fleury, and winning a crapshoot draft lottery to get Crosby. While he has had a couple of decent trades, more often than not he shakes things up too much too late in the season. For example, he brought in tons of players at or near the deadline in the lockout year. While that team steamrolled the Sens, they were slow and plodding and were no match for Boston in the next round. I actually gave him an F at the time for his deadline deals when everyone else was giving him an A+ that year.

I know people are going to argue this, but Shero did not improve the quality of the team all that much. I would argue that a team as stacked as the Pens have been should have won multiple cups since drafting Crosby. A better GM might have accomplished just that.

IMO, Shero's big strength which may come in handy if he lands here is he was able to handle a pretty dysfunctional Pens organization and keep things running smoothly. So it would not be all bad if he comes here, I guess.

 

[Micklebot]

No .. i suggested Vermette could have gotten just as many assists on eaves goals as he did stillman's. Vermette benefited at most 3 assists on Stillman goals.

Vermette can benefit from playing with Stillman beyond just getting assists on his goals. It's why teams value guys like H.Sedin and Thornton, because offense isn't just goals. Even just having another shooter on the ice opens things up, making opposition respect both options.

Vermette played well after Stillman got here. I could probably pick out other seasons where players had hot stretch similar to vermette with stillman.

Eaves wasnt something special but he certainly was capable of hovering around 20 goals if he was healthy. 13 goals in 63 games 12 in 65 . Bump up his minutes to the second line and have him play out both seasons back to back well being healthy and 20 goals was not out of the question. This guy scored 20 goals as a rookie. How many rookies score 20 goals in 58 games? Suggesting hes not skilled is also kinda silly. His healthiest seasons hes always had a shooting percentage above normal. Not 20 percent high but if you eliminate is highest and lowest seasons hes around 11 percent when he was largely healthy. Couple this with decent speed and you have a good player.

First off, his career average sh% is 9.6, league average over the last 7 years is around 9.2 for forwards. Even if you take out all the seasons where his Sh% was <10%, he only has a career 12.8 %. Take out the 20 goal rookie season and it plummets to 10.9%. He's not a guy who gets a ton of shots, or creates chances on his own, has a slightly above average shot if we're being honest, is an ok skater, doesn't possess high end stick skills, should I continue?

So here what we know about Vermette. He regularly can score 20 goals. Stillman at most contributed 3 assists to Vermettes point totals on his goals. Stillman likely didnt contribute on every single vermette point. I tend to give Vermette a lot more credit then ill give stillman

Vermette has 4 20 goal season, not sure that's regular. Stillman had eight prior to coming over to the Sens, that's regularly. Stillman also had healthy assist totals (unlike Eaves). Maybe Vermette's better play was a coincidence, but the eye test showed them finding each other on the ice. Suggesting that Eaves would have been just as good in Stillman's place is borderline insane, an completely baseless.

ou've already said you think it was a bad trade. No need getting strung up on why other people think it was bad

Actually, what I said is I would have prefered if Stillman was re-signed. Had he been re-signed for the next 2-3 years, I'd have been very happy, but those two issues are seperate.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

It's probably deceptively hard to be the GM of a team with Crosby, Malkin, Fleury and Letang: that's a lot of your budget tied up meaning you really need to get excellent depth players

to his credit Ray Shero did manage to make solid trades (getting Neal and getting Hossa for example) but Fleury crapped the bed in 2010, Crosby (and Malkin?) were hurt in 2011, the team came undone against the Flyers in 2012, Boston shut them down hard in 2013 and the Rangers were on a mission for St-Louis last year: hard to blame the GM on any of those except maybe the sweep against Boston in 2013, better depth could have been a game changer.

I'm not sure I'd pin Pittsburgh failings on Shero: "he" drafted some awesome dmen and he got Chris Kunitz who is a great fit for Crosby. Could he have been better? Sure but the whole "Pittsburgh not winning anything since 2009 means Shero is no good" is very simplistic. He made some insanely good trades (that's a big plus as far as I'm concerned) and didn't really sign a lot of bad contracts; didn't get a lot of forwards via the draft so that's a concern but I'd be pleased to have someone from outside come in and change the air.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Both Stillman and Matt Cullen were two players I was upset that we couldn't re-sign.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Vermette can benefit from playing with Stillman beyond just getting assists on his goals. It's why teams value guys like H.Sedin and Thornton, because offense isn't just goals. Even just having another shooter on the ice opens things up, making opposition respect both options.



First off, his career average sh% is 9.6, league average over the last 7 years is around 9.2 for forwards. Even if you take out all the seasons where his Sh% was <10%, he only has a career 12.8 %. Take out the 20 goal rookie season and it plummets to 10.9%. He's not a guy who gets a ton of shots, or creates chances on his own, has a slightly above average shot if we're being honest, is an ok skater, doesn't possess high end stick skills, should I continue?



Vermette has 4 20 goal season, not sure that's regular. Stillman had eight prior to coming over to the Sens, that's regularly. Stillman also had healthy assist totals (unlike Eaves). Maybe Vermette's better play was a coincidence, but the eye test showed them finding each other on the ice. Suggesting that Eaves would have been just as good in Stillman's place is borderline insane, an completely baseless.


Actually, what I said is I would have prefered if Stillman was re-signed. Had he been re-signed for the next 2-3 years, I'd have been very happy, but those two issues are seperate.

like i said hes been around 11 percent in his healthiest seasons if we exclude his best and worst.

Saying Vermette isnt a regular 20 goals scorer is being pretty picky... Hes projecting to be a 20 goal scorer this season and was in the lock out season i believe.

I said stillman was moderately better then eaves at that point in his career and going forward i'd rather have eaves then loses both. All the scouting reports on eaves say he has top 6 skill set. Heres one example http://www.examiner.com/article/scouting-the-detroit-red-wings-patrick-eaves


Heres what i know. The great goal scorer stillman had THREE goals. You're going so far to compare his play making ability to some of the greatest of the modern times in joe thornton and Sedin. He was NOT at that level. Eaves had a top 6 skill set. Vermette doesnt need to be spoon fed goal and YES hes a regular 20 goal scorer. Guess what he had 8 before coming to the sens and would never have one again. Its possible Carolina knew he was declining.

90 percent of Murray's interviews have him saying how much his goal scoring ability and cup rings would help us. Neither helped us AT ALL.

We know Vermette wasnt getting that many if any assists off of stillman goals because there were so few. Guess what my eye test told me he wasnt worth giving up corvo and eaves for especially after he left as a ufa.


You're present no argument that you havent aleady brought up. At this point you're refusing to drop it when its obvious we wont agree. Lets not derail this thread.

Eaves was actually a good two way player and is basically in the league still because his hockey sense and pk ability.


-Eaves around 11 shooting percentage...2 percent above the league average well playing crap minutes most his career and getting a few 12-13 goal shortened seasons due to injury

-Stillman did not come as advertised crapped the bed with zero goal scroing abilty in ottaea with a career worst shooting percentage after leaving ottawa he steadily declined
due to injuries

-vermette a guy who regularly scores 20 goal had a career year well playing 27 games with stillman. he scored 24 goals with at most 3 assists that can be directly linked to coming off stillman goals

-stillman and his stanley cup rings didnt help us at all in the playoffs. not blaming him but he didnt effect the team like murray hoped

Shall i go on?


Like i said to begin this whole discussion. The marginal upgrade of stillman over eaves was not worth the huge downgrade of corvo to commdore. As someone brought up Corvo was our best pmd that year.

 

[ekarlsson65]

When the time comes I would like to see them hire Julien Brisebois from Tampa

Amen to that, guy's huge on analytics and look at his CV, stellar for an assistant GM (so far). He should be the front runner no question but knowing how this circus of an organization works I wouldn't be surprised if Shero lands the position

 

[Do Make Say Think]

You know who hired a bunch of analytics people?

Toronto

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

like i said hes been around 11 percent in his healthiest seasons if we exclude his best and worst.

Saying Vermette isnt a regular 20 goals scorer is being pretty picky... Hes projecting to be a 20 goal scorer this season and was in the lock out season i believe.

I said stillman was moderately better then eaves at that point in his career and going forward i'd rather have eaves then loses both. All the scouting reports on eaves say he has top 6 skill set. Heres one example http://www.examiner.com/article/scouting-the-detroit-red-wings-patrick-eaves


Heres what i know. The great goal scorer stillman had THREE goals. You're going so far to compare his play making ability to some of the greatest of the modern times in joe thornton and Sedin. He was NOT at that level. Eaves had a top 6 skill set. Vermette doesnt need to be spoon fed goal and YES hes a regular 20 goal scorer. Guess what he had 8 before coming to the sens and would never have one again. Its possible Carolina knew he was declining.

90 percent of Murray's interviews have him saying how much his goal scoring ability and cup rings would help us. Neither helped us AT ALL.

We know Vermette wasnt getting that many if any assists off of stillman goals because there were so few. Guess what my eye test told me he wasnt worth giving up corvo and eaves for especially after he left as a ufa.


You're present no argument that you havent aleady brought up. At this point you're refusing to drop it when its obvious we wont agree. Lets not derail this thread.

Eaves was actually a good two way player and is basically in the league still because his hockey sense and pk ability.


-Eaves around 11 shooting percentage...2 percent above the league average well playing crap minutes most his career and getting a few 12-13 goal shortened seasons due to injury

-Stillman did not come as advertised crapped the bed with zero goal scroing abilty in ottaea with a career worst shooting percentage after leaving ottawa he steadily declined
due to injuries

-vermette a guy who regularly scores 20 goal had a career year well playing 27 games with stillman. he scored 24 goals with at most 3 assists that can be directly linked to coming off stillman goals

-stillman and his stanley cup rings didnt help us at all in the playoffs. not blaming him but he didnt effect the team like murray hoped

Shall i go on?


Like i said to begin this whole discussion. The marginal upgrade of stillman over eaves was not worth the huge downgrade of corvo to commdore. As someone brought up Corvo was our best pmd that year.

Corvo wanted out, Murray had to trade him.

 

[Cosmix]

Really? I heard that neither are going to be the GM.

Considering Shero is a close family friend of Melynk's and he worked in the org as an assistant GM before he went to Pittsburgh, I'd say he's the favorite.

Not to mention he's been seen sitting in Eugene's owner's box at a handful of games this season.

I bet my nickel on Shero!

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

You know who hired a bunch of analytics people?

Toronto

haha they sure did, made a huge deal out of it too. People overvalue what these advanced stats actually contribute. They're like plus minus, kind of handy with context and can help paint a better picture in some cases.

Hockey isn't baseball.

 

[Cosmix]

Really sad to see Bryan go. Wish he continued as coach - really liked his spunk.

That Corvo/Eaves trade stunk! While I liked Stillman's experience, he was a little slow a foot, and Commodore did not last long at all. I liked Corvo.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

No more Corvo eaves trade ever AGAIN. I promise not to bring it up lol

 

[Cosmix]

That's a very fair point.

Don't forget! Melnyk did hire Murray! So . . .

 

[Cosmix]

still had 27 points in ottawa well buckling

would go to be 2 points under ppg as a hurricane that year

From a team need perceptive we desperately needed Corvo. We were not at liberty to trade away what he brought to the team. With Redden's decline and mez being moved this would have a terrible effect on the sens line up for years to come.

The difference in Corvo with term over UFA Commodore
was not worth the marginal upgrade if any of
ufa stillman over RFA Eaves


If karlsson comes out tomorrow and says he wants a trade because Brennan is mean to him you dont move him. If you do move him you dont move him for inferior assets that arent part of your plan moving forward


I find it absolutely crazy people can defend this. I can understand the argument people make when confronted(corvo wanted out) with this trade but i dont know how it wasnt bad at the time and in hindsight. Everything Murray says in the interview is about how much better this deal would make the team. It didnt make the team better. Thats all you need to know.

I agree with you! However there are those who do not agree with us. I will drink a beer instead of trying to change their minds!

 

[h2]

If we're going with a retool instead of a rebuild, then Shero is the guy we want. His ability to make trades will be key in turning from mediocre to contender. When you don't have top 5 draft picks to get top talent, you do it via trades, which is what you do when retooling. I like what BM has done, but I consider trading not his strength, Shero can change that aspect.

 

[Cosmix]

Shero GM
Alfie AGM - Player Relations (Assists coaches in helping players deal with issues on and off the ice. Mentor Captain and Associate captains.) Talks to potential free agents during grace period.
Dorion AGM - Futures (scouting, drafting)
Lee AGM - Player development. Runs Bingo, monitors health of players through training staff and ensures players come back when they are ready and not before.

That is what I would like to see.

That does it for me! I am in your boat rowing away!

 

[Do Make Say Think]

If we're going with a retool instead of a rebuild, then Shero is the guy we want. His ability to make trades will be key in turning from mediocre to contender. When you don't have top 5 draft picks to get top talent, you do it via trades, which is what you do when retooling. I like what BM has done, but I consider trading not his strength, Shero can change that aspect.

Pretty much

I have to think that the one thing the GM is crucial to is trades; obviously the rest of coaching and management will matter but pulling the trigger on a trade is probably the one area where who the GM really matters

That being said, Murray has made some excellent trades and most of those came after Melnyk authorized the retool in 2011 rather than force Murray to get players like Kovalev to try and stay afloat. Corvo + Eaves for Commodore + Stillman was one of those "I'm doing everything I can to stay afloat, this doesn't really fit in any longterm planning" which I think reflects more on how ownership saw the team rather than what Murray thought was best