Confirmed Trade: [MTL/ARI] Christian Dvorak for 2022 1st round pick and 2024 2nd round pick [Part II]

[Scintillating10]

Let’s analyze that a little further shall we?

Habs lost 3rd Overall + 2nd round pick
Habs gained Dvorak + 3rd round pick

Habs basically packaged 3rd overall+ for Christian Dvorak lol.

Like imagine asking a habs fan this year if they would package their 1st round pick for a 3rd line C.

It was terrible trade for Montreal. But they got picks back on Toffoli.

 

[Gaud]

Puzzling trade then, why not keep the pick and tank even more without Dvorak?

Losing KK and Danault in such a short time. A C was necessary

 

[Burke the Legend]

Let’s analyze that a little further shall we?

Habs lost 3rd Overall + 2nd round pick
Habs gained Dvorak + 3rd round pick

Habs basically packaged 3rd overall+ for Christian Dvorak lol.

Like imagine asking a habs fan this year if they would package their 1st round pick for a 3rd line C.

The "3OA" doesn't exist after KK was drafted. It was a bad 3OA pick but that can't be changed. KK is no longer worth a 3OA so why count him as one?

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Let’s analyze that a little further shall we?

Habs lost 3rd Overall + 2nd round pick
Habs gained Dvorak + 3rd round pick

Habs basically packaged 3rd overall+ for Christian Dvorak lol.

Like imagine asking a habs fan this year if they would package their 1st round pick for a 3rd line C.

So you wouldn't trade Yakupov for Dvo because Yaks was a 1st overall?

Also, if our 1st overall this year is busting 3 years from now and some fool pays him 6.1 million, chances are this management doesn't match either.

Let me guess, you are also the 1st to scream that Habs reached royally to draft KK at #3 and he should have went much later and then turn around and say Habs traded a 3OA for a #3C to suit your narrative .

 

[Baksfamous112]

Puzzling trade then, why not keep the pick and tank even more without Dvorak?

Dvorak is 25, he can still be a solid veteran C when Habs are entering their window

 

[Jared Dunn]

Let’s analyze that a little further shall we?

Habs lost 3rd Overall + 2nd round pick
Habs gained Dvorak + 3rd round pick

Habs basically packaged 3rd overall+ for Christian Dvorak lol.

Like imagine asking a habs fan this year if they would package their 1st round pick for a 3rd line C.

Look man your delusion is your business

 

[pth2]

Dvorak is 25, he can still be a solid veteran C when Habs are entering their window

True, but I think he'd be one of those pieces Habs can get a quick turnaround on to get picks and kids, to help a quick rebuild/retool. Some guys are just easier to move and I suspect a lot of people would essentially make up the picks the Habs gave for him. I would've even be surprised to see him go at the deadline if someone really wants depth at C.

 

[BLONG7]

People should keep in mind, it wasn't apparent when we got Dvorak that the team was going to fall apart. It appeared that Price might miss a few games early on, but Allen could hold the fort, and otherwise Savard seemed like a tolerable replacement for Weber, considering Weber was often hurt anyways (ie, Savard in the lineup is better than Weber out of it).

Instead of being a potential playoff team, the Habs fell apart, which wasn't the obvious outcome before the season.

The hockey gods were angry at the habs for beating the leafs............man were they mad.
No one saw this level of falling apart coming....
Dvo can rebound, no doubt about it, just not sure he wants to be in Montreal, at all....

 

[blankall]

Meh...
Bad trade in retrospect, but hardly franchise crippling. Carolina's first will be very late, and not all that different than a 2nd rounder, in this not so deep draft. Montreal can trade Dvorak at some point and recoup some assets. They also get Calgary's first, so will be able to pick their late round guy.

Now if Montreal didn't have the conditions in the Dvorak trade and had traded their own first....

Feel bad for Dvorak though. Guy finally gets out of a losing franchise and thinks he's going to a contender... And.... Not so much.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The "3OA" doesn't exist after KK was drafted. It was a bad 3OA pick but that can't be changed. KK is no longer worth a 3OA so why count him as one?

Granted it's still a very young class and anything could happen, but he seems like a pretty clear-cut 5th in that class so far. It's not a "bad pick" in the sense of a Dal Colle... a Kotkaniemi level player would be good value on a 5OA and that's about what his value should be.

 

[CapSpace]

Wow this beaten horse is pulp since a while and you guys keep kicking.

 

[Burke the Legend]

Granted it's still a very young class and anything could happen, but he seems like a pretty clear-cut 5th in that class so far. It's not a "bad pick" in the sense of a Dal Colle... a Kotkaniemi level player would be good value on a 5OA and that's about what his value should be.

That's a fair point in a vacuum, but unfortunately for the people behind the selection he's always going to be compared to the best winger and D-man available: Brady Tkachuk and Quinn Hughes. I'm not dissing KK because he's not a bust as you say, and still has potential to put things together and hit another level. But the afore mentioned players were immediate impact players and now young all-stars so clearly Habs' front office blew the selection and it cost some people their jobs in the end.

 

[Conbon]

There wasn't anything "Flukey" about their playoff run. They were a decent team that got hot at the right time.

Then they lost their all world goaltender, their captain and best defenseman, their steadiest defenseman (Edmundson), they had their young center poached via offer sheet which left them with Suzuki and nobody else up the middle. Bergevin, trying to save his job, went out and made the deal for Dvorak.

"Fluke" teams don't come back from being down 3-1 to win. They don't overcome losing their coach. That playoff run may have literally cost both Shea Weber and Carey Price their careers in the NHL. It wasn't a fluke, they just played a terrific team game throughout the playoffs and the guys that held the team together aren't there anymore.

Nah it was a fluke, small sample size and modern NHL is mostly random.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

Nah it was a fluke, small sample size and modern NHL is mostly random.

Nah it wasn’t, but thanks.

 

[AvatarAang]

So you wouldn't trade Yakupov for Dvo because Yaks was a 1st overall?

Also, if our 1st overall this year is busting 3 years from now and some fool pays him 6.1 million, chances are this management doesn't match either.

Let me guess, you are also the 1st to scream that Habs reached royally to draft KK at #3 and he should have went much later and then turn around and say Habs traded a 3OA for a #3C to suit your narrative .

Yakupov was drafted in 2012, literally a decade ago. Are you actually trying to compare him with Kotkaniemi, who you drafted only 3 years ago before he was poached from your team? The fact that you are still calling Carolina “fools” after they embarrassed your team and got your GM fired tells us all we need to know

So you’re telling me you are ready to give up on your 1st overall pick if he doesn’t break out in 3 seasons? It’s no surprise that big name free agents have zero interest in playing in Montreal when their fans have that kind of attitude.

I actually have no problem with Montreal selecting Kotkaniemi 3rd overall. But you seem to have no problem giving up on him after 3 years because the habs overpaid the rest of your team and couldn’t match the offer sheet lol.

 

[Conbon]

Nah it wasn’t, but thanks.

11 wins in 51 games cope

 

[Beendair Donedat]

11 wins in 51 games cope

Cope?

Talking in circles here, since I explained it once already. Go back and read it again, maybe a little slower this time, or have someone read it to you if you struggle, and maybe you’ll be able to understand.

 

[Hostile Offer]

Yakupov was drafted in 2012, literally a decade ago. Are you actually trying to compare him with Kotkaniemi, who you drafted only 3 years ago before he was poached from your team? The fact that you are still calling Carolina “fools” after they embarrassed your team and got your GM fired tells us all we need to know

So you’re telling me you are ready to give up on your 1st overall pick if he doesn’t break out in 3 seasons? It’s no surprise that big name free agents have zero interest in playing in Montreal when their fans have that kind of attitude.

I actually have no problem with Montreal selecting Kotkaniemi 3rd overall. But you seem to have no problem giving up on him after 3 years because the habs overpaid the rest of your team and couldn’t match the offer sheet lol.

They wouldn't have matched that in any case. One year deal with a $6M QO for a player who was worth maybe $2M the day the offer sheet was made was a complete no-starter for matching. There was obviously a plan to keep developing KK into that #2C slot behind Suzuki but the ridiculous offer sheet wasn't worth it, and not so much about "giving up" on KK. I'm not sure what Carolina's plan is with him but it's pretty safe to say he isn't worth his QO today either despite increased production.

 

[Hoochi Papa]

They wouldn't have matched that in any case. One year deal with a $6M QO for a player who was worth maybe $2M the day the offer sheet was made was a complete no-starter for matching. There was obviously a plan to keep developing KK into that #2C slot behind Suzuki but the ridiculous offer sheet wasn't worth it, and not so much about "giving up" on KK. I'm not sure what Carolina's plan is with him but it's pretty safe to say he isn't worth his QO today either despite increased production.

He's overpaid only for this season though. They didn't offer him Gallagher-like all time awful cap killer. Carolina can and will extend Kotkaniemi for a cheaper price. There's no point trying to ridicule them as idiots, because they only paid for one year. Montréal on the other hand was embarrassed badly throughout this saga.

Kotkaniemi was worth more than Carolina's low 1st. He could've been extended before Hurricanes made Bergevin look like an idiot. They got less for Kotkaniemi than his actual value and they wasted that pick on a career 3rd liner see who folded like a cheap deck chair when given the opportunity to play 2C.

 

[Hostile Offer]

He's overpaid only for this season though. They didn't offer him Gallagher-like all time awful cap killer.

He has a QO that allows him to either go to UFA or get paid at least the same he's paid now in order for Carolina to retain his rights.

Carolina can and will extend Kotkaniemi for a cheaper price. There's no point trying to ridicule them as idiots, because they only paid for one year.

We don't know that. It financially makes no sense for KK to just agree to re-sign with the Canes at a cheaper price. I'm not ridiculing them as idiots, as the price they paid wasn't anything franchise-crippling, but it might not be the absolute homerun some, like you, are painting it to be.

Montréal on the other hand was embarrassed badly throughout this saga.

Meh, in hindsight offer sheeting Aho seems to have been a mistake but other than that I don't see what they could've done differently.

Kotkaniemi was worth more than Carolina's low 1st. He could've been extended before Hurricanes made Bergevin look like an idiot. They got less for Kotkaniemi than his actual value and they wasted that pick on a career 3rd liner see who folded like a cheap deck chair when given the opportunity to play 2C.

I'm not sure one year of KK was worth a 1st. Dvorak might not have been either but nothing about his production and age suggests he's a career 3rd liner. He's played in a top 6 role in Arizona, and has produced like a 2nd liner there. And he's paid less than KK. I don't really mind turning KK into Dvorak when taking the circumstances into account.

 

[Hoochi Papa]

He has a QO that allows him to either go to UFA or get paid at least the same he's paid now in order for Carolina to retain his rights.

He's in a good situation and unlike Bergevin, Carolina won't be a penny pinching cheap ass. He's allowed to sign extension that is less than 6.1 million per year.

We don't know that. It financially makes no sense for KK to just agree to re-sign with the Canes at a cheaper price. I'm not ridiculing them as idiots, as the price they paid wasn't anything franchise-crippling, but it might not be the absolute homerun some, like you, are painting it to be.

Getting former 3rd overall for a late 1st is definitely a home run. He might be UFA but Montréal can't control his destiny anymore. Also, he's not a super star who will trigger a bidding war. His career is back on track in Carolina, why would he risk it, as long as Hurricanes come up with a respectable offer.

Meh, in hindsight offer sheeting Aho seems to have been a mistake but other than that I don't see what they could've done differently.

That offersheet was a joke. If you're trying to poach a star, don't offer an underpayment. Every move in this saga was a wrong one, that's what I call an utter embarrasment.

I'm not sure one year of KK was worth a 1st. Dvorak might not have been either but nothing about his production and age suggests he's a career 3rd liner. He's played in a top 6 role in Arizona, and has produced like a 2nd liner there. And he's paid less than KK. I don't really mind turning KK into Dvorak when taking the circumstances into account.

When he's extended, it's worth a lot more than late 1st. This isn't 2014, being a career under 40 point producer is a definition of 3C. Just because he's been awarded the opportunity to play top-6 in an awful laughing stock doesn't make him genuine top-6 center. He's paid less than KK for one year. And he should be paid less for his zero ceiling plug hockey. If we don't compare his salary to KK's one year salary, he's actually overpaid by a lot. I do mind wasting KK into an expensive plug.

 

[jellybeans]

Nah it was a fluke, small sample size and modern NHL is mostly random.

It was a fluke they got in the playoff but it was no fluke what they did after that.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

Losing KK and Danault in such a short time. A C was necessary

No. What difference was this loser going to make?

 

[Chrispy]

He has a QO that allows him to either go to UFA or get paid at least the same he's paid now in order for Carolina to retain his rights.



We don't know that. It financially makes no sense for KK to just agree to re-sign with the Canes at a cheaper price. I'm not ridiculing them as idiots, as the price they paid wasn't anything franchise-crippling, but it might not be the absolute homerun some, like you, are painting it to be.

First, Carolina could take him to arbitration and claim he's worth less than the QO. It's unlikely and risky, but it's a possibility if Kotkaniemi plays hardball.

Second, it could financially make sense for him to sign with Carolina for less than his QO. He's not likely to get $6M+ as a UFA. The question is whether he thinks Carolina's sub-QO offer is competitive with what he and his agent think the UFA market is, and whether he likes the situation in Carolina (which he appears to.)

There's also the possibility for a bigger role next year if Trocheck is not re-signed as a UFA, which I think is likely given the contract Trocheck will command on the open market.

Finally: if one year of approximately 0.5PPG production from a center in limited minutes, with a team option beyond that, isn't worth it for a late first? Then there's a lot of really bad deadline deals that are about to be made.

 

[Hostile Offer]

First, Carolina could take him to arbitration and claim he's worth less than the QO. It's unlikely and risky, but it's a possibility if Kotkaniemi plays hardball.

In order to go to arbitration, he'll first have to be QO'd. If KK feels he won't be getting as much from arbitration, which would be likely, then there's no reason for him to just not take his QO and keep being paid $6M.

Second, it could financially make sense for him to sign with Carolina for less than his QO. He's not likely to get $6M+ as a UFA. The question is whether he thinks Carolina's sub-QO offer is competitive with what he and his agent think the UFA market is, and whether he likes the situation in Carolina (which he appears to.)

I'm not saying he wouldn't be considering a long term offer at lesser cap hit from Carolina, but in this cade we will have to treat him as a UFA and in that case KK will hold the leverage.

Finally: if one year of approximately 0.5PPG production from a center in limited minutes, with a team option beyond that, isn't worth it for a late first? Then there's a lot of really bad deadline deals that are about to be made.

Note that I didn't say it wasn't "worth it", just that it might have not been a homerun, which is different.