Mitch Marner Discussion Thread

[Havoc]

There is absolutely no way any team was going to offer more than what the leafs did (for a career high 70 point player) PLUS 4 first round picks. No way in hell.

Point is almost as good (some say AS good). Look at his offersheets...

And imagine a team giving up FOUR FIRST ROUND PICKS for a "short term" contract with matthews. Whata joke.

Their goalie makes 10 mil yet their goal differential is -3.

Go over to their board and demand consistency.

 

[Bomber0104]

Their goalie makes 10 mil yet their goal differential is -3.

Go over to their board and demand consistency.

They've won a playoff round in the last 15 years, no?

We're not really in a position to be telling other teams how to manage their rosters in case that isn't abundantly clear to you..

I'll never understand where the arrogance comes from with some of you..

 

[Havoc]

They've won a playoff round in the last 15 years, no?

We're not really in a position to be telling other teams how to manage their rosters in case that isn't abundantly clear to you..

I'll never understand where the arrogance comes from with some of you..

The irony of this sentence.

This poster has outrageous demands for Marner and Matthews based on their salary.

This poster uses Tampa as our role model team.

This posters role model team has a goalie making 10 mil.

This poster demands Marner and Matthews be top 5 in scoring at ALL TIMES.

Role model teams 10 mil goalie is getting lit up.


I don't see how this is sound logic. What does arrogance have to do with anything.

Rather be arrogant than clueless like you

The irony of this sentence.

This poster has outrageous demands for Marner and Matthews based on their salary.

This poster uses Tampa as our role model team.

This posters role model team has a goalie making 10 mil.

This poster demands Marner and Matthews be top 5 in scoring at ALL TIMES.

Role model teams 10 mil goalie is getting lit up.


I don't see how this is sound logic. What does arrogance have to do with anything.

Rather be arrogant than clueless like you

I'm not talking about that poster.

I was talking about you.

Where do you, as a Leafs fan, get off chastising other more successful teams how to manage their capspace and rosters?

How many playoff clinches, playoff rounds, and Cups have the Lightning won in the past 15 years?

I'm not talking about that poster.

I was talking about you.

Where do you, as a Leafs fan, get off chastising other more successful teams how to manage their capspace and rosters?

.....Where did I tell Tampa how to manage their team?

I'm simply mocking the guy for how badly his Tampa rants blew up in his face.

They're struggling just as badly as us right now.

I don't actually care what Tampa is doing.


Like I said, get a clue. Me and this poster already have past discussions about this. Don't butt in and waste peoples time if you don't understand the context.

.....Where did I tell Tampa how to manage their team?

I'm simply mocking the guy for how badly his Tampa rants blew up in his face.

They're struggling just as badly as us right now.

I don't actually care what Tampa is doing.


Like I said, get a clue. Me and this poster already have past discussions about this. Don't butt in and waste peoples time if you don't understand the context.

I know the context. I read these forums.

Any instance of Tampa Bay being brought up was only brought up in the context of comparing RW Kucherov's contract to RW Marner's.

What exactly does Vasilevsky's contract have to do with the Marner contract?

I know the context. I read these forums.

Any instance of Tampa Bay being brought up was only brought up in the context of comparing RW Kucherov's contract to RW Marner's.

What exactly does Vasilevsky's contract have to do with the Marner contract?

I don't understand why you're making this so complicated.

You're always so angry and looking for a fight. Take a deep breath and calm down.

I mean, its pretty simple.

He constantly uses Tampa as an example.

If you claim to read these forums so dilligently then you saw his post about outrageous demands for outrageous contracts.

Well...his role model team has a goalie making 10 mil. Getting absolutely lit up.

On top of that, it's fun to quote him and demand consistency. If you read these forums as much as you claim you do, you know that demanding consistency with this guy has become a running gag.

If he has outrageous demands for Matthews and Marner then I demand consistency with his 10 mil goalie on the team he likes to throw in our face.

Get it now? I was mocking him.


Now, if this is still confusing to you, just pretend I said Nylander sucks so you can feel happy and call it a day.

I don't understand why you're making this so complicated.

You're always so angry and looking for a fight. Take a deep breath and calm down.

I mean, its pretty simple.

He constantly uses Tampa as an example.

If you claim to read these forums so dilligently then you saw his post about outrageous demands for outrageous contracts.

Well...his role model team has a goalie making 10 mil. Getting absolutely lit up.

On top of that, it's fun to quote him and demand consistency. If you read these forums as much as you claim you do, you know that demanding consistency with this guy has become a running gag.

If he has outrageous demands for Matthews and Marner then I demand consistency with his 10 mil goalie on the team he likes to throw in our face.

Get it now? I was mocking him.


Now, if this is still confusing to you, just pretend I said Nylander sucks so you can feel happy and call it a day.

That's not how it is in slightest.

It seems like you're the one who's completely in the wrong here, academically speaking, since you haven't even begun to answer the question of what Vasilevsky's contract has to do with Marner's...

I'm all ears on that one.

And I don't believe anyone on this forum has ever suggested that Tampa Bay has perfected all of their contracts, much less the poster who you're clearing obsessing over (jealous much?)...

Who's perfect after all?

But the Marner/Kucherov contract precedent is the one that rings largest with people who seriously look at these comparisons.

It looks as though you're choosing to ignore that completely though and childishly deflect to their starting goalie's contract, as if Andersen won't command the same price in two off-seasons..

That's not how it is in slightest.

It seems like you're the one who's completely in the wrong here, academically speaking, since you haven't even begun to answer the question of what Vasilevsky's contract has to do with Marner's...

And I don't believe anyone on this forum has ever suggested that Tampa Bay has perfected all of their contracts, much less the poster who you're clearing obsessing over (jealous much?)...

Who's perfect after all?

But the Marner/Kucherov contract precedent is the one that rings large with people who seriously look at the comparisons.

I guess you've chosen to ignore it and childishly deflect to their goalie's contract, as if Andersen won't command the same price in two off-seasons..

..... oh dear.

I honestly have no idea what you're ranting about. I didn't raise any of these issues or care to talk about Tampa or compare them to us. I couldn't care less.

I'm not going to sit here and babysit you until you understand the scope of my original comment. Others don't want to read this pointless conversation you keep trying to drag on until I stoop to your level and engage in a fight so I'm going to do everyone a favor and end the convo here.

..... oh dear.

I honestly have no idea what you're ranting about. I didn't raise any of these issues or care to talk about Tampa or compare them to us. I couldn't care less.

I'm not going to sit here and babysit you until you understand the scope of my original comment. Others don't want to read this pointless conversation you keep trying to drag on until I stoop to your level and engage in a fight so I'm going to do everyone a favor and end the convo here.

Glad to finally see some maturity on your part.

Glad to finally see some maturity on your part.

Thanks.

Won't hold my breath for the day we see some from you.

Thanks.

Won't hold my breath for the day we see some from you.

I'm quite happy, personally.

Unlike you I don't have to back out of arguments I can't support, as you just did above , and then try to get the last little internet parting shot.

Feels good

 

[LeafingTheWay]

There was definitely a bigger pro-Burke/Leafs contingent on HF back then.

The few critical posters during that time (like myself) were given a rough time.

Ultimately we were proven right however.

The Leafs were an absolute disaster like people like me were saying all along (unlike the Zeke's of the world), all of the coaches/GM's associated with those teams were fired, we were given the tank-style rebuild that we wanted with Lou and voila - we've arrive at the post-rebuild phase of the team with Dubas...

Who then decided to turn the team into some idealistic utopian non-contact version of blog-stat hockey he probably thought of after a night of watching Moneyball with Brad Pitt and Mary Jane.

Oh and did I mention he also doesn't know how to negotiate contracts either?

Good thing I wasn't around for the pre-2014 days on here

I know this isn't a Dubas thread, but I gotta say I disagree wholeheartedly. Dubas was here since 2014/2015. He was instrumental in our rebuild. We wouldn't have had great success if it wasn't for Dubas's work. Dubas isn't following a Moneyball approach at all either. That's something a team like Carolina is doing (I.e a team full of underrated players with fantastic underlying stats). Look at Washington in baseball. They replaced their superstar player with a bunch of underrated guys, and now they won the whole thing without him. Leafs are surrounding their superstar players with a bunch of underrated guys. Unfortunantly for us, our stars (Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander) are all soft players and that probably angers a lot of people here.

Getting back to the Marner thread though, I think people are being too harsh on him. I would bet Marner and the rest of the team dominate soon.

 

[Brown Dog]

why are you watching...good question.
How is it you are all over Marner this year and kutcherov isn't even a point a game. Point wise, Marner is producing 25 % more but is paid only 15.8% more with higher taxes to boot. I demand consistency from you

Marner is paid more than Kucherov. This still blows my mind.

 

[Notsince67]

Marner is paid more than Kucherov. This still blows my mind.

Stop the presses. Now we have something interesting to talk about.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Not really.

Lots of folks were adamant that our team was adequate defensively even though we got majorly out-shot on a regular basis. I was told that our system under Carlyle was "designed to keep shots to the outside" so there was no need to worry about our alarmingly bad shot differential.

Those were the good times. Didn't even help that shot charts showed that we actually did a horrible job of keeping shots to the outside, people clung to that idea anyway.

I do think there was a difference though. Most people accepted that the Leafs weren't particularly good. Opinions seemed to vary between 'outright bad' and 'pretty decent'. So the hot takes were more lukewarm, people in general just didn't lose their minds in the same way they do now. Now people are like babies who get candy teased in front of their faces only to have it snatched away as they greedily reach out. Hell is raised.

 

[hector morrison]

Doesn't it also beg a question of you about why our management is rubber stamping the clear under utilization of these overpaid players? You can very well argue that this type of under usage is costing us points in the standings - points that could contribute to us possibly winning home ice advantage in the 1st round. Who knows what would have happened the last 2 years if we didn't under-use our star players and we did win home ice advantage.

I'm completely baffled why we are handing out these massive contracts but refuse to make the most out of these players we're paying massive dollars to. It's not even like we're depriving them of hard minutes either, we're actually depriving them of PP time - the least fatiguing yet most effective offensive minutes they can play. It makes no god damn sense at all.

Maybe you've read/heard (as I have) that sports science people think that a players usage is directly related to their performance. I can see how that could be true.I'm not about to try and drum up reasons to question their methodology. However,drawing from my own experience(and others) I would say it is short of being an 'exact science'. My basic argument would be that simply ,some days are better than others. The competition may be a factor as well. I'm sure there is a whole humanistic side to it as well.

Babs and or others in the Leaf management seem to believe that there is an optimum amount of ice time/rest that helps players perform better. On the surface ,this makes sense,but ,in reality it is potentially hurting the teams chances of winning more games. I could site examples of where I thought Auston should be on the ice in critical situations. They should maybe try playing the young stars more when needed...what are they afraid of ? Being wrong?

For the record...the 'Load Management' is exactly that...a big load of bullshyte! For example ,there are some shifts where a player just isn't required to do much.also,how hard are they working on the PP,they don't look tired to me! With the game on the line,I will take the over-played ,ultra talented ,22 year old horse and (arguably) the best scorer in the league over anyone else. I'm willing to bet that if Matthews /Marner played as much as other stars the Leafs would win more! If a new coach appears on the scene,I bet he plays them a lot more.

 

[Mess]

Tavares absence really demonstrated how much Marner relies on him to be more impactful in games both on the ice and in the boxscore.

Even playing 3 games with Matthews and 3 more on the 2nd line designed to drive offense didn't have the impact it should have based on expectations and remuneration.

I really looking forward to the Hyman -- Tavares -- Marner line to be reunited in the near future as those 2 players seem to compliment Marner's game the most.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Tavares absence really demonstrated how much Marner relies on him to be more impactful in games both on the ice and in the boxscore.

Even playing 3 games with Matthews and 3 more on the 2nd line designed to drive offense didn't have the impact it should have based on expectations and remuneration.

I really looking forward to the Hyman -- Tavares -- Marner line to be reunited in the near future as those 2 players seem to compliment Marner's game the most.

I think it's less about Tavares not being there and more about Mitch just being in a general funk altogether. Tavares helped elevate his production but JT doesn't prevent Mitch from taking those bad OT penalties recently and making poor decisions with the puck/handling the puck.

He demonstrated the same ability to be impactful on the ice when he was with Bozak and JVR. He just doesn't have that same jump going right now.

 

[Mess]

I think it's less about Tavares not being there and more about Mitch just being in a general funk altogether. Tavares helped elevate his production but JT doesn't prevent Mitch from taking those bad OT penalties recently and making poor decisions with the puck/handling the puck.

He demonstrated the same ability to be impactful on the ice when he was with Bozak and JVR. He just doesn't have that same jump going right now.

The Leafs lost 4 of 6 games without JT and Marner was expected to have both a greater impact in leadership, responsibility as well as step up offensively as he attempted to fill a greater role.

I think the opposite in fact happened and seemed lost out there regardless of whom he was assigned to play with..

What seemed even more odd was that when put with Mikheyev and Kerfoot he looked like the passenger and 3rd wheel on that line as both his linemates continued to generate offense and scoring changes, while dragging him along for the ride for the most part.

With JT expected back tonight hopefully that "funk" is gone as it removes pressure he felt as he had to carry the team, and now the Captain can again take that up and Marner returns to his former self that we all have come to expect. Even that said I still think that duo played even better last year when Hyman was their wingman, then any point in this season without him.

 

[ULF_55]

Wearing my marner t-shirt for this one.

Need a good return on the cap investment.

Be nice if all the lines ended up outscoring their opposition.

 

[axlrose87]

What are you talking about.
Marner is out producing Kucherov at a rate greater than the salary difference. there is a 4 year difference in age and when marner is done, kucherov will be 32 years old. You have nothing except tired arguments that dont change.
Stop watching already because nothing will make you happy

Have you been watching the games?
Marner has looked awful. Uninspired, awful decision making, soft and making several very costly mistakes.
Yes, he has put up some Points on the pp.... that’s about it.
Marner has not played well

 

[axlrose87]

Tavares absence really demonstrated how much Marner relies on him to be more impactful in games both on the ice and in the boxscore.

Even playing 3 games with Matthews and 3 more on the 2nd line designed to drive offense didn't have the impact it should have based on expectations and remuneration.

I really looking forward to the Hyman -- Tavares -- Marner line to be reunited in the near future as those 2 players seem to compliment Marner's game the most.

Couldn’t agree more. Marner looks best next to Tavares. It’s clear that it is Tavares that drives the line. But why do we need an $11 million wing man???
It’s time to find a trade partner and ship him out while we still can

 

[ULF_55]

Couldn’t agree more. Marner looks best next to Tavares. It’s clear that it is Tavares that drives the line. But why do we need an $11 million wing man???
It’s time to find a trade partner and ship him out while we still can

Maybe they should just put marner in the middle.

Mikheyev-marner-Kapanen

They have him out there playing center on the PK. Yes, I know 1 for 4 at the dot has probably caused at least 2 goals, but at even strength might not be as bad?

 

[axlrose87]

Maybe they should just put marner in the middle.

Mikheyev-marner-Kapanen

They have him out there playing center on the PK. Yes, I know 1 for 4 at the dot has probably caused at least 2 goals, but at even strength might not be as bad?

Ya maybe. We have to look for a way to get a better bang for our buck. Because, as it stands right now, it looks like we are paying a winger as one of the best players in the nhl yet he seems to be dependent on another player for success. That’s a recipe for disaster. Just look at the former islander wingers who used to play with Tavares. None of them lived up to their contracts once they were no longer on his line

 

[Stephen]

You joined in 2014.

There's many worse than that, trust me.

Remember Ian White? Matt Stajan? James Reimer? Norris candidate Dion Phaneuf?

Let me tell you, Zeke had big-time "stats" for them too !

I vaguely seem to recall those Wellwood/Steen vs Carter/Richards debates too. Always feels like if you're going to the trouble of the comparison, the guy you're pumping up is probably worse.

 

[Stephen]

Wearing my marner t-shirt for this one.

Need a good return on the cap investment.

Be nice if all the lines ended up outscoring their opposition.

Hopefully the mini Halloween break is a good re-set. The core can be insufferably fill in the blank, but we do need them to get back to business and we need to get back to enjoying it.

 

[Notsince67]

Have you been watching the games?
Marner has looked awful. Uninspired, awful decision making, soft and making several very costly mistakes.
Yes, he has put up some Points on the pp.... that’s about it.
Marner has not played well

neither has kucherov

 

[axlrose87]

neither has kucherov

Who cares.... that’s Tampa bays problem.

 

[Notsince67]

Who cares.... that’s Tampa bays problem.

I was responding to a poster who continues on about the salary cap and demanding consistency. He asked why anyone should bother to watch now that Marner is paid more than kucherov. I merely pointed out the fact that Marner is out-earning his contract this year compared to kucherov. If people want to make ridiculous comparison just for the purpose of being negative, they should eat their comparison if it doesn't hold up to muster. Constantly pointing to other players on different teams as superior to our own is getting ridiculous around here if it means a constant barrage of leaf hatred that rivals fans of other teams. I would invite the jack asses to pick another team. I dont mind valid criticism, but to disparage the quality of one of our best players after some limited games and become homers for other teams stars should earn a boot from a leaf fan forum.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Tavares absence really demonstrated how much Marner relies on him to be more impactful in games both on the ice and in the boxscore.

Even playing 3 games with Matthews and 3 more on the 2nd line designed to drive offense didn't have the impact it should have based on expectations and remuneration.

I really looking forward to the Hyman -- Tavares -- Marner line to be reunited in the near future as those 2 players seem to compliment Marner's game the most.

So many people under selling Hyman.
I think it's the Hyman type player that Marner is missing. Marner has been fine without JT, and neither was great to start together. I feel the same about Matthews and Willy, I think they also need that Hyman type of player.
A gritty, grindy player that goes into the corners with a heavy body and creates space, allowing the highly skilled players to get into an open position.

Everyone talks how great MAtthews-Nylander were 5v5 2 years ago, and everyone talks about how great Marner and JT were last year at 5v5, and yet the common theme that played on both those lines gets forgotten. Hyman is a huge reason for that 5v5 success. He is great defensively, and creates space, which creates high danger scoring chances.

 

[PromisedLand]

I think it's less about Tavares not being there and more about Mitch just being in a general funk altogether. Tavares helped elevate his production but JT doesn't prevent Mitch from taking those bad OT penalties recently and making poor decisions with the puck/handling the puck.

He demonstrated the same ability to be impactful on the ice when he was with Bozak and JVR. He just doesn't have that same jump going right now.

at 10.9 AAV taking a huge slice of the cap-space pie; I have zero tolerance for excuses. Show up or shut up.

Am a huge marner and matthews fan but I dont have much patience for them given they are taking combined 22 million of the cap

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Their goalie makes 10 mil yet their goal differential is -3.

Go over to their board and demand consistency.

Ten million is the approximate going rate for young vezina trophy winning goalies.

So, being that that is a fair contract, I have (and Tampa fans) will have fair expectations. Having low points during a season is acceptable and fair.

The leafs players have outrageous contracts based on comparables. Outrageous contracts come with outrageous expectations. They want fair expectations? Then they should sign fair contracts.

 

[PromisedLand]

So many people under selling Hyman.
I think it's the Hyman type player that Marner is missing. Marner has been fine without JT, and neither was great to start together. I feel the same about Matthews and Willy, I think they also need that Hyman type of player.
A gritty, grindy player that goes into the corners with a heavy body and creates space, allowing the highly skilled players to get into an open position.

Everyone talks how great MAtthews-Nylander were 5v5 2 years ago, and everyone talks about how great Marner and JT were last year at 5v5, and yet the common theme that played on both those lines gets forgotten. Hyman is a huge reason for that 5v5 success. He is great defensively, and creates space, which creates high danger scoring chances.

Agreed about Hyman. Guy gets the puck more often than not; is great at forechecking

Marner thrives with players that are good at puck retrieval because Marner isn't a big body to play boards;

Marner was good with Kadri-Marleau and then Hyman-JT because those guys are good at the boards

If they want to get Marner going they need to play him with players who can retrieve the puck, give it to marner and then get open

might seem a bit weird but quite frankly I would do the following:

Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Mikheyev-Spezza-Marner (two big bodies with Marner - Swap Goat with Spezza if Spezza doesn't work)
Moore-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Timashov-Goat-Shore