Miscellaneous NHL Discussion: Off-Season Edition

[Beef Invictus]

If he had any meaningful say, the sort that affords him blame, then why does the contract very strongly resemble the sort of thing Homer always handed out, while bearing little resemblance to the contracts Hextall has given out?


It's one thing for Hextall to be fine with signing McD. Nothing wrong with that, it's not like he had been awful, and we'd paid to acquire him. Where it becomes an issue is with the extremely Holmgreny contract. What reason is there to believe Hextall was fine with that contract, when that contract is the opposite of what Hextall seems to be doing?

 

[Jack de la Hoya]

Goligoski's rights to ARZ.

I still don't think Dallas bites on Streit, but it's one step closer to possible.

 

[kingjmusicman]

From Friedman:
ARIZ is acquiring the negotiation rights to UFA D Alex Goligoski from DAL. @CraigCustance was first to sniff it out.

 

[Curufinwe]

If he had any meaningful say, the sort that affords him blame, then why does the contract very strongly resemble the sort of thing Homer always handed out, while bearing little resemblance to the contracts Hextall has given out?


It's one thing for Hextall to be fine with signing McD. Nothing wrong with that, it's not like he had been awful, and we'd paid to acquire him. Where it becomes an issue is with the extremely Holmgreny contract. What reason is there to believe Hextall was fine with that contract, when that contract is the opposite of what Hextall seems to be doing?

Hextall has given out huge contracts since becoming GM.

 

[Curufinwe]

It would be hearsay to suggest Hextall deserves any blame for that contract. We weren't there. We do know that Holmgren had final say, so to me, Holmgren gets the blame.

It would be ludicrous to claim the guy who became GM the next month was not heavily involved in such a big signing. For all we know Hextall convinced Holmgren to trade for and sign MacDonald. You just don't want to consider that possibility because you like Hextall and don't like MacDonald.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

With being able to talk to free agents a week or so before it starts I figured trading for rights would essentially be done going forward. I guess I was wrong though.

 

[Curufinwe]

Goligoski's rights to ARZ.

I still don't think Dallas bites on Streit, but it's one step closer to possible.

Based on the predicted D lineups for Dallas in that thread it does seem like they could use Streit.

 

[Magua]

Hextall has given out huge contracts since becoming GM.

Yeah, Jake and Coots. Also an economical deal with Raffl and Neuvirth. A 1 year, medium priced chance on Medvedev, a low cost/year deal with Schultz, a fair deal with a RFA MDZ.

None of those coincide with signing a (soon to be) UFA to a massive deal -- a player with all the warning signs of being a very overrated player propped up by usage. Doesn't exactly scream Hextall, though it does scream Homer. Hexy identifies and signs his core, is economical with his spare parts, and if he goes big on a free agent, you can be sure it will be with the utmost care.

 

[Flyotes]

Deep under the Wells Fargo center, Dark Wizard R. hex Tall puts the finishing touches on his liquid luck potion in preparation for the 2016 NHL Muggle Draft.

Get'er done Ron.

 

[kingjmusicman]

Not sure if was mentioned but Read had surgery on his hand. Hextall said surgery was "cleaning up" something.....

 

[Magua]

It would be ludicrous to claim the guy who became GM the next month was not heavily involved in such a big signing. For all we know Hextall convinced Holmgren to trade for and sign MacDonald. You just don't want to consider that possibility because you like Hextall and don't like MacDonald.

Nothing Hextall has done indicates he was a cheerleader for this signing....based on track record with him as GM or treatment of the player only 1 year+ removed from signing. Is he complicit? Yes. He was indeed Assistant GM. But to the degree you are saying, I don't believe so. More likely it seems to me that he wasn't a fan (to whatever degree) but acquiesced to the guy who WAS GM. It stands in such stark contrast to his record as GM that I think it's a reasonable assumption actually.

And this business about Hextall clearly having a large say since he became GM next month....that was never part of the plan. It could've been 2 years. 3 years. All that was agreed upon was that he would succeed Homer eventually. Here's some nugget quotes from the Inquirer the day Hexy was hired:

Five days ago, Paul Holmgren scoffed at the idea of giving up his seat as the Flyers' general manager.

"Do you think I look 70?" Holmgren barked. "I still feel pretty good. I'm certainly not in any position today where I want to change chairs."

It's amazing what five days and a little "coaxing" from chairman Ed Snider can do.

Hextall, 50, will become just the seventh GM in the Flyers' 47-year history. His rapid promotion after being hired as Holmgren's assistant last July gives some kind of indication how serious he was a candidate to be Washington's next general manager.

Hextall was simply to valuable of a commodity to let walk, even if that meant another awkward conversation between Holmgren and Snider. In good conscience, the Flyers could not prevent Hextall - under contract with the Flyers - from leaving without promoting him.

"He didn't come in to be assistant GM forever," Snider said of Hextall last week. "But that doesn't mean tomorrow. I've got to sit down with Paul. We're in the process of analyzing everybody's title."

It sure sounds to me like Holmgren was not operating as a lame duck GM at the time. And even today, he's still technically Hextall's boss.

 

[kammy]

Based on the predicted D lineups for Dallas in that thread it does seem like they could use Streit.

What will it take to pry Nichushkin ?

 

[Jack de la Hoya]

What will it take to pry Nichushkin ?

He's really struggled, but I don't see the Stars moving him on the cheap. You're probably looking at one of the D prospects.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Literally the only two moves Hextall gets criticized for, the Mac signing and potentially getting more value out of Hartnell, are both highly speculative in nature. There's no proof that Hextall had any say in the Mac contract, it is a fact that he was not GM at the time, and it really is a polar opposite move to everything else he has ever done as GM. I don't believe for a second that he was in favor of that until some proof is shown otherwise.

As for Umberger it's, again, highly speculative that there was a team offering better value than an easier contract to swallow and a pick. There's no proof to the otherwise and even if it were true, there is statistical proof that Umberger looked like a better player than he turned out to be and there is literal proof from Umberger himself that the extent of his injuries weren't fully known at the time.

In both instances, I really don't get why Hextall gets crap for either of them. Well, I do, because people like to criticize and react instead of being fair but still.

EDIT: Nich's future isn't looking solid right now, but Dallas isn't going to move him for anything that isn't equivalent in value to his draft position, most likely. Which is smart on them.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

The Umberger/Hartnell trade was a case of short term pain for long term gain. I think I was okay with it at the time because that's how I saw it (hopefully not revisionist history), but the problem was the return.

Even if I expected Umberger to score 15 goals a year, the value was weak. Since he couldn't perform at all, the value was very weak.

Hextall isn't going to knock them out of the park on every move; it's fine to criticize moves that look bad. We still don't know how Hartnell's final couple of years will turn out, though, and that's what the trade was all about... eliminate older players on expensive contracts.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Nothing Hextall has done indicates he was a cheerleader for this signing....based on track record with him as GM or treatment of the player only 1 year+ removed from signing. Is he complicit? Yes. He was indeed Assistant GM. But to the degree you are saying, I don't believe so. More likely it seems to me that he wasn't a fan (to whatever degree) but acquiesced to the guy who WAS GM. It stands in such stark contrast to his record as GM that I think it's a reasonable assumption actually.

And this business about Hextall clearly having a large say since he became GM next month....that was never part of the plan. It could've been 2 years. 3 years. All that was agreed upon was that he would succeed Homer eventually. Here's some nugget quotes from the Inquirer the day Hexy was hired:






It sure sounds to me like Holmgren was not operating as a lame duck GM at the time. And even today, he's still technically Hextall's boss.

Yea it was Holmgren's show at the time. No one in the organization expected him to get the boot until he did. They wanted Hextall as the next GM for sure and when other teams came calling and Hextall took them seriously it forced their hand. So they did what they always do. They promoted Holmgren out of the job and gave it to Hextall. And probably told Homer he was there to continue to advise Hexy on the ins and outs of the job.

I'm more ok with the trade now then I was when we did it. My take in the Hartnell traded to Columbus thread

There has to be another shoe to drop. Or 5 shoes

 

[Rebels57]

It would be ludicrous to claim the guy who became GM the next month was not heavily involved in such a big signing. For all we know Hextall convinced Holmgren to trade for and sign MacDonald. You just don't want to consider that possibility because you like Hextall and don't like MacDonald.

And for all we know, he had nothing to do with it.

That's my point.

Either way, not GM at the time = not final say

Let's blame him for the mistakes he has final say on, like the Umberger trade, and to a much lesser extent, the VandeVelde extension.

 

[Curufinwe]

2 years at $1m for Jaskin in StL. Could be a comparable for Laughton, unless Scott has a big year.

 

[renberg]

I don't think that any of us know who has what input into how the Flyers decide to make a deal, especially a major one. I would suspect that Mr. Snider had some say as did whoever was the President of the club, the GM, the Asst. GM, the scouting director, the coach and perhaps others. This club has a history of having a team approach on the ice and in the FO. Clarke probably came closest to being a one man show but even he answered to the man at the top and talked with others like the coach.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I'm not so sure TT is worth two 2nd's though, so there is nothing "nuts" about it.

They could potentially be packaged to move us back into the first to take a shot at a guy like Dahlen or Asplund. TT might break out, but there is a reason Chicago traded him; his development has not gone according to plan. Maybe he just wasn't getting the opportunity on a stacked Chicago team, or maybe he doesn't have what it takes to be a legit top 6 winger. Like many other players of his ilk (Gagner, Yakupov, etc), he is most likely top 6 or bust.

Are you serious? You would trade two picks for one to move up to get someone. WHAT IF THEY COULD HAVE HAD TWO ALL STARS AND DAHLEN SUCKS?!

For real though, TT is a 21 year kid that played third line minutes and limited PP2 time and had more goals than Voracek and nine less than Giroux, the vast majority coming at ES. He may not be a superstar, and I'm certainly not suggesting that he is, but I'd rather have a guy already producing in the NHL than one guy (or two) who might maybe possibly produce at the same or better clip in a couple years.

 

[BernieParent]

Deep under the Wells Fargo center, Dark Wizard R. hex Tall puts the finishing touches on his liquid luck potion in preparation for the 2016 NHL Muggle Draft.

Get'er done Ron.

He's the Headmaster of Sniderin, right?

 

[BernieParent]

What makes me pause about Hextall's involvement in the MacDonald deal is that, if he had any sort of agreement to being the GM-in-waiting, the term would absolutely make the contract fall under his jurisdiction. And since the final years are typically more painful than the first on a contract like that, he was getting the poopy end of the stick.

There are three possible scenarios:

1. Neither Holmgren nor Hextall knew about the change in GM
2. Both knew and Holmgren overruled Hextall - unsporting on Holmgren's part
3. Both knew and Hextall acquiesced - an un-Hextallish move

 

[Magua]

What makes me pause about Hextall's involvement in the MacDonald deal is that, if he had any sort of agreement to being the GM-in-waiting, the term would absolutely make the contract fall under his jurisdiction. And since the final years are typically more painful than the first on a contract like that, he was getting the poopy end of the stick.

There are three possible scenarios:

1. Neither Holmgren nor Hextall knew about the change in GM
2. Both knew and Holmgren overruled Hextall - unsporting on Holmgren's part
3. Both knew and Hextall acquiesced - an un-Hextallish move

It's probably 1 going by my previous post

 

[kyuss]

What makes me pause about Hextall's involvement in the MacDonald deal is that, if he had any sort of agreement to being the GM-in-waiting, the term would absolutely make the contract fall under his jurisdiction. And since the final years are typically more painful than the first on a contract like that, he was getting the poopy end of the stick.

There are three possible scenarios:

1. Neither Holmgren nor Hextall knew about the change in GM
2. Both knew and Holmgren overruled Hextall - unsporting on Holmgren's part
3. Both knew and Hextall acquiesced - an un-Hextallish move

There's several more options. I think the most likely is that they fumbled the handoff of the office.

Here's the press conference when Hexy officially took over: http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/5/7/5691946/ron-hextall-press-conference-transcript-flyers
The most important points are that Homer initiated the change in January.
Homer makes a point that Hexy makes day to day decisions on his own, yet...
Homer makes a point that he needs to confer with Hexy on some of his previous business.
Hexy directly on Amac:

Were you OK with resigning MacDonald for example? Moves like that?

“Yeah. We needed to resign him.”

Into the amount of money and so forth?

“Yeah. That’s what the market dictated. Quite honestly, his agent kept saying he might have got more. He might have. He’s a good player. He’s a young player and when you look, you talk about a vision moving forward, you start to do your boxes with your defense and Andrew’s right in there with our young guys, as an older guy in two or three years. That’s the type of vision that you have to have and you have to plan like that.

So Andrew MacDonald’s going to be a big part of this team moving forward. Did we love the cap number? No. We would have liked to have been a little lower, but in the end if I was his agent I could have probably said it should have been a little higher. Which typically, if neither side’s real happy with the deal, you probably got a fair deal.”

Anyway, these guys at the top aren't making whimsical decisions on their own. These are multi-hundred million dollar businesses. All of their decisions are made with group input including accountants and lawyers. Look at that Flight Plan video when they're trying to decide who to pick. Homer is pretty hands off. He's letting the scouts do their job. I doubt he over-rided the org on his way up.

They screwed up, and we have to suffer.

 

[Tripod]

Would not surprise me if AMac is shuffled between LV and the Flyers in the next 4 years. While in LV, he can play with the kids to give them a NHL level guy to learn from. And then he can be brought up whenever injuries occur if you want that veteran guy without any worry of losing someone to waivers.

Certainly not ideal, but make the best of a bad situation.