Minnesota Wild General Discussion XI

[Dr Jan Itor]

Because anything with Stalock and an unproven NHL goaltender still feels like one of the worst tandems in the league unless KK controls the net and becomes a top 15 starter. I find that unlikely.

The Wild very much are where they are right now because of their goaltending. Stalock and KK next year does absolutely nothing to address that. We can say how badly this team needs a high level center but the reality is they need a tandem that can even approach mediocrity, at the very least, much more.

Every goalie is not a top 15 starter until they are. He has checked every box so far; I don't know why it's unlikely that he would continue to do so.

And I think a lot of people here wouldn't mind replacing Stalock as well.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I don't have a difficult time separating the person and the player. He's probably a top notch human; he's also been a dog shit goalie this year, and is the #1 reason why we're not sitting in a playoff spot right now.

It's one of the many things that comes with the millions of dollars.

 

[Prior]

I don't have a difficult time separating the person and the player. He's probably a top notch human; he's also been a dog shit goalie this year, and is the #1 reason why we're not sitting in a playoff spot right now.

It's one of the many things that comes with the millions of dollars.

At the same token, if the Wild bothered to do anything in regards to planning to replace him at any point how upset are we really with him at this point? And then they double down with an inept, older backup. If your goaltending duo is 33 and 32 and no one is coming to force the issue to take their position over the last year, that’s a problem.

Frankly, the goaltending this season says more about the Wild franchise having no foresight at the position than Dubnyk falling off the map.

 

[TaLoN]

At the same token, if the Wild bothered to do anything in regards to planning to replace him at any point how upset are we really with him at this point? And then they double down with an inept, older backup. If your goaltending duo is 33 and 32 and no one is coming to force the issue to take their position over the last year, that’s a problem.

Frankly, the goaltending this season says more about the Wild franchise having no foresight at the position than Dubnyk falling off the map.

You mean like draft and develop replacement goaltenders like KK and/or Robison? They were hoping Dubnyk could keep up his play just a bit longer to bridge that gap. Dubnyk instead collapsed completely and has turned into a liability. He was better last year than this year, and even last year was a down year.

 

[thestonedkoala]

You mean like draft and develop replacement goaltenders like KK and/or Robison? They were hoping Dubnyk could keep up his play just a bit longer to bridge that gap. Dubnyk instead collapsed completely and has turned into a liability. He was better last year than this year, and even last year was a down year.

Yep. We'd thought he'd bounce back, because everyone was having a down year last year.

Also you forgot to mention Hunter Jones and Filip Lindberg.

 

[Prior]

Listing off 4 players that happen to be goaltenders not on roster is all well and good. Of course no team is going not going to have goaltenders in their system so I’m not certain what that adds to the discussion. Problem is 3 of them were added in the last year. Of the 4, only Jones has any real pedigree.

My point is, the Wild set themselves up poorly at the position. And that date backs to before Dubnyk was brought in. In fact, they are damn lucky he provided what he did because they literally had nothing to fill his role and no money to sign better than a marginal goaltender.

KK is on the right track but he’s the only goaltender they’ve had in the system to progress to even the point he is at now (NHL level prospects) in quite some time. Whether he is the chops to stick as a starter remains to be seen.

My point from the beginning, they did not set themselves up well enough to transition out of the Dubnyk era. That should be clear to everyone with their eyes open over the last several years while they chased other organizational holes.

 

[Bazeek]

Listing off 4 players that happen to be goaltenders not on roster is all well and good. Of course no team is going not going to have goaltenders in their system so I’m not certain what that adds to the discussion. Problem is 3 of them were added in the last year. Of the 4, only Jones has any real pedigree.

My point is, the Wild set themselves up poorly at the position. And that date backs to before Dubnyk was brought in. In fact, they are damn lucky he provided what he did because they literally had nothing to fill his role and no money to sign better than a marginal goaltender.

KK is on the right track but he’s the only goaltender they’ve had in the system to progress to even the point he is at now (NHL level prospects) in quite some time. Whether he is the chops to stick as a starter remains to be seen.

My point from the beginning, they did not set themselves up well enough to transition out of the Dubnyk era. That should be clear to everyone with their eyes open over the last several years while they chased other organizational holes.

My counter-argument would be that they've set themselves up to transition away from Dubnyk by maintaining their blueline and strong team defense. They just need a competent goaltender and those tend to be readily available in the offseason.

Not picking one up last summer was a mistake because Dubnyk's decline hasn't been sudden, but it's a relatively easy thing to fix.

 

[TaLoN]

My counter-argument would be that they've set themselves up to transition away from Dubnyk by maintaining their blueline and strong team defense. They just need a competent goaltender and those tend to be readily available in the offseason.

Not picking one up last summer was a mistake because Dubnyk's decline hasn't been sudden, but it's a relatively easy thing to fix.

It was a mistake to expect a bounce back, which they clearly had banked on a bit much... the utter collapse caught them off guard. for next season, they need to decide if they are going to chance KK in the NHL next year... and if so, do they want to get a more possible 1b option for another option. Hard to bank so hard on a rookie, so replacing both Dubnyk and Stalock with KK and someone a bit more reliable as a serious bridge option should be considered.

 

[Prior]

My counter-argument would be that they've set themselves up to transition away from Dubnyk by maintaining their blueline and strong team defense. They just need a competent goaltender and those tend to be readily available in the offseason.

Not picking one up last summer was a mistake because Dubnyk's decline hasn't been sudden, but it's a relatively easy thing to fix.

That’s fair. Cheap goaltending that is more proven at the NHL level can be found easily. The Wild, more so than most, are set up to sustain that. But when you talk about subtracting from the strength to add elsewhere (center), that would seem potentially cause an issue with that mindset no?

I’m just of the opinion you should be trying to develop a true number one. It’s a difficult projection and difficult development for sure. But the team really hasn’t given themselves many kicks at the can. That’s been put on the back burner for a quite a while and it shows.

 

[TaLoN]

That’s fair. Cheap goaltending that is more proven at the NHL level can be found easily. The Wild, more so than most, are set up to sustain that. But when you talk about subtracting from the strength to add elsewhere (center), that would seem potentially cause an issue with that mindset no?

I’m just of the opinion you should be trying to develop a true number one. It’s a difficult projection and difficult development for sure. But the team really hasn’t given themselves many kicks at the can. That’s been put on the back burner for a quite a while and it shows.

KK has been on a #1 development track. Jones also has the pedigree for it.

The can got all screwy first when Harding got MS, then when Kuemper proved to be mentally fragile when the team was banking on him taking the job. That forced the team to drastic measures of trading for Dubs, who took the job and ran with it for quite a while.

Goaltending takes a LONG TIME to develop, and we had the guts removed on the track that this team was banking on suceeding. It's taken until around now to get that conveyor back online. Now we just need to make sure we handle it right and KK is ready for the shot properly... his AHL season has been tremendous and thus has him on a likely #1 goaltender track here eventually.

 

[Bazeek]

That’s fair. Cheap goaltending that is more proven at the NHL level can be found easily. The Wild, more so than most, are set up to sustain that. But when you talk about subtracting from the strength to add elsewhere (center), that would seem potentially cause an issue with that mindset no?

I’m just of the opinion you should be trying to develop a true number one. It’s a difficult projection and difficult development for sure. But the team really hasn’t given themselves many kicks at the can. That’s been put on the back burner for a quite a while and it shows.

It's a risk, yeah, and it's why I get why people lean toward parting with Dumba over Brodin even if I don't entirely agree. Adding some punch up front doesn't help much if you suddenly can't get the puck out of your own end.

Agreed on them needing to do a better job of maintaining a stable of goalies, though.

 

[Prior]

KK has been on a #1 development track. Jones also has the pedigree for it.

The can got all screwy first when Harding got MS, then when Kuemper proved to be mentally fragile when the team was banking on him taking the job. That forced the team to drastic measures of trading for Dubs, who took the job and ran with it for quite a while.

Goaltending takes a LONG TIME to develop, and we had the guts removed on the track that this team was banking on suceeding. It's taken until around now to get that conveyor back online. Now we just need to make sure we handle it right and KK is ready for the shot properly... his AHL season has been tremendous and thus has him on a likely #1 goaltender track here eventually.

I agree with everything you said here.

What I’m saying is that they’ve had nothing coming that could bridge the gap between Kuemper (29) and KK (23). That’s a problem I believe is very fair to point out. Between those age ranges, there needed to be someone who’s already on roster last year splitting time and taking over the starter role this year given Dubnyk’s age.

Instead they needed to sign (twice) a poor backup in Stalock because that prospect wasn’t there. And here we are with easily the worst tandem in the league.

Again, I don’t believe it’s completely fair to saddle Dubnyk with all the blame for that.

 

[TaLoN]

I agree with everything you said here.

What I’m saying is that they’ve had nothing coming that could bridge the gap between Kuemper (29) and KK (23). That’s a problem I believe is very fair to point out. Between those age ranges, there needed to be someone who’s already on roster last year splitting time and taking over the starter role this year given Dubnyk’s age.

Instead they needed to sign (twice) a poor backup in Stalock because that prospect wasn’t there. And here we are with easily the worst tandem in the league.

Again, I don’t believe it’s completely fair to saddle Dubnyk with all the blame for that.

That's true, but that's because the guys between failed in their development. There were multiple... it happens. Had Harding not gotten MS and was #1, then Kuemper has more time to develop and likely goes as #2 for a while and not asked to try to run with #1 so soon. Then we likely go from Hardin as #1 to Kuemper who is proving to be a pretty good #1 now. That then makes the swings and misses less costly as we wouldn't even be looking for a current #1 yet post Kuemper, but when the whole conveyor gets untracked, it's not a quick thing to remedy.

Gustafsson, Michalek and Belanger were all drafted after Kuemper when our track looked very good considering we had both Kuemper AND Hackett with Harding about ready to replace Backstrom.

Gustafsson failed, Michalek failed, no idea of Belanger's status or future outlook.

Then you get to KK and Jones along with the signing of Robison... our future outlook is looking very good again.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I agree with everything you said here.

What I’m saying is that they’ve had nothing coming that could bridge the gap between Kuemper (29) and KK (23). That’s a problem I believe is very fair to point out. Between those age ranges, there needed to be someone who’s already on roster last year splitting time and taking over the starter role this year given Dubnyk’s age.

Instead they needed to sign (twice) a poor backup in Stalock because that prospect wasn’t there. And here we are with easily the worst tandem in the league.

Again, I don’t believe it’s completely fair to saddle Dubnyk with all the blame for that.

I understand what you're saying, but it's all irrelevant if Dubnyk just simply doesn't become a terrible goaltender. If he drops down to only 'average' then he's still our starter and next year is Kahkonen backing him up in the NHL, the year after is Kahkonen taking over, and the gap is bridged just fine. It is/was Dubnyk's descent to the bottom that brought this to the forefront, and he carries plenty of blame for that.

 

[Prior]

I understand what you're saying, but it's all irrelevant if Dubnyk just simply doesn't become a terrible goaltender. If he drops down to only 'average' then he's still our starter and next year is Kahkonen backing him up in the NHL, the year after is Kahkonen taking over, and the gap is bridged just fine. It is/was Dubnyk's descent to the bottom that brought this to the forefront, and he carries plenty of blame for that.

Fair.

Dubnyk’s game completely left him once before. I don’t think it should be a shock that it’s gone again at his age is all I’m saying. The Wild could have put themselves in a much better position to transition the net.

They’ve got themselves into an even trickier spot next year as they navigate what that looks like.

 

[ThatGuy22]

I agree with everything you said here.

What I’m saying is that they’ve had nothing coming that could bridge the gap between Kuemper (29) and KK (23). That’s a problem I believe is very fair to point out. Between those age ranges, there needed to be someone who’s already on roster last year splitting time and taking over the starter role this year given Dubnyk’s age.

Instead they needed to sign (twice) a poor backup in Stalock because that prospect wasn’t there. And here we are with easily the worst tandem in the league.

Again, I don’t believe it’s completely fair to saddle Dubnyk with all the blame for that.

We drafted three goalies between Kuemper and KK. Gustafsson and Michalek both at varous points showed real promise. They didn't end up working out for various reasons, but it was hardly ignored.

They also brought in Svedberg and Robson, a high end European goalie and College UFA.

They haven't ignored the position, they've come at it at basically all angles beyond drafting a first/second round goaltender (which has ridiculous bust potential). Just hasn't worked out.

 

[Prior]

We drafted three goalies between Kuemper and KK. Gustafsson and Michalek both at varous points showed real promise. They didn't end up working out for various reasons, but it was hardly ignored.

They also brought in Svedberg and Robson, a high end European goalie and College UFA.

They haven't ignored the position, they've come at it at basically all angles beyond drafting a first/second round goaltender (which has ridiculous bust potential). Just hasn't worked out.

I’m guessing I’m coming off as implying this team has done nothing to get a high end goaltender and they need to spend valuable assets to do it.

All I’m saying is this.

• Drafting 3 goaltenders in 5 years isn’t good enough and isn’t investing in the position knowing the make up of the position throughout the organization.
  
• Teams literally do not avoid the position. Naming a goaltender they added isn’t of much consequence in this context.
  
• They have tried (and failed) to add goaltender prospects outside of the draft.
  
• The position and it’s projection/development is by its nature difficult.

Again, this organization has been hardly blameless through several iterations recently. I think it’s fair to say that the organization inability to build this position is just as much of an issue as Dubnyk’s play this season. Likely more. It’s a difficult spot to get right but failure is failure. Whether it’s projection and/or development.

 

[ThatGuy22]

I’m guessing I’m coming off as implying this team has done nothing to get a high end goaltender and they need to spend valuable assets to do it.

All I’m saying is this.

• Drafting 3 goaltenders in 5 years isn’t good enough and isn’t investing in the position knowing the make up of the position throughout the organization.
  
• Teams literally do not avoid the position. Naming a goaltender they added isn’t of much consequence in this context.
  
• They have tried (and failed) to add goaltender prospects outside of the draft.
  
• The position and it’s projection/development is by its nature difficult.

Again, this organization has been hardly blameless through several iterations recently. I think it’s fair to say that the organization inability to build this position is just as much of an issue as Dubnyk’s play this season. Likely more. It’s a difficult spot to get right but failure is failure. Whether it’s projection and/or development.

I'm really struggling to understand your point. Your bullet points acknowledge why it's difficult to find quality goaltenders, but you seem to be blaming the organization for Dubnyk's steep drop off. His deal was widely praised as fair at the time, they've brought in goaltenders all sorts of ways over the past 10 years.

They haven't found a franchise goaltender, but have got good goaltending from a number of goaltenders over the past decade.

So you admit they haven't ignored it, admit it's tough to find a good goaltender, but it's the Wild orginization's fault Dubnyk fell off a cliff?

 

[Prior]

I'm really struggling to understand your point. Your bullet points acknowledge why it's difficult to find quality goaltenders, but you seem to be blaming the organization for Dubnyk's steep drop off. His deal was widely praised as fair at the time, they've brought in goaltenders all sorts of ways over the past 10 years.

They haven't found a franchise goaltender, but have got good goaltending from a number of goaltenders over the past decade.

So you admit they haven't ignored it, admit it's tough to find a good goaltender, but it's the Wild orginization's fault Dubnyk fell off a cliff?

‘Because it’s hard’ doesn’t seem like a valid excuse for failure.

If it is, what exactly is the point of discussing anything here?

 

[SotasicA]

Mikko Koivu has filed for divorce in February.

Now his wife says Mikko cheated on her:

Sokkiero! NHL-tähti Mikko Koivun järkyttynyt Helena-vaimo Seiskalle: Mikko petti minua!

 

[Bazeek]

Mikko Koivu has filed for divorce in February.

Now his wife says Mikko cheated on her:

Sokkiero! NHL-tähti Mikko Koivun järkyttynyt Helena-vaimo Seiskalle: Mikko petti minua!

Can't say the site inspires much confidence, but if there's actually a court filing... rough year for Mikko.

 

[SotasicA]

He has a pre-nup:

Mikko Koivu ja Helena-vaimo: Avioero!

 

[thestonedkoala]

Can't say the site inspires much confidence, but if there's actually a court filing... rough year for Mikko.

Doesn't he have kids?

Edit: Yep 3. Ouch. I wonder if this isn't one of the reasons why he is having a rough year, but if it is true, it does say a lot about Koivu's character.

 

[MuckOG]

Doesn't he have kids?

He has three kids.

 

[thestonedkoala]

.