Minnesota Wild General Discussion V

[123TripleDoge]

this is hilarious thatguy 22 so many of you say things like we should pick bpa yet you all support the wilds decision to go off the reservation. (cough hypocrite cough) sheep is thinking the wild are smarter than the rest of the hockey world. but hey its just a msg board think what you like. i could care less if any of you agree with me.

BPA refers to the scouting from the team, not the media's list lol.

We obviously don't have every teams internal list, so you cannot say it flies in the face of "the hockey world". It was said that some other teams had this player going in the 1st round. There is no reason to be that upset about a pick

 

[Nsjohnson]

If the roster didn't change, and Kaprizov came here in the 20-21 season, the Granlunds, Zuckers, Coyles, and Nino's would be 29 or turning 29.

Parise, Suter, Staals (if Staal stayed on a minor center role) would be 36.
Dumba 26.
Brodin 28.
Greenway 24
JEE 24
Kunin 23

Then you'd add Kaprisov, at age 24.
If any others make it, they would be or turning, and obviously that means some would push others off the team or down the roster:
Sokolov 23
Johansson 21
Belpedio 25
McBain 21

It's an interesting look if the 29 year olds of the 2010 draft played with the 23-24 year olds, with of course Dumba and Brodin being between.

I don't know about you, but it's a decent team. Center looks like an issue. Wingers looks great. Defense still good. Goalie...well I didn't bother.

It's summer. I'm watching the end of the WC. I also do this because if we don't crash and burn, but keep 'tweaking' and keep making the PO's, this may very well happen.

Essentially, assuming no big FA signings, the Granlunds of the team become what the Parises were five years ago. Then, the Greenways and Kaprisovs kind of become what the Nino's and Granlunds are/were.

We kind of have these FA's that are old, then two waves of our draft picks.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

If the roster didn't change, and Kaprizov came here in the 20-21 season, the Granlunds, Zuckers, Coyles, and Nino's would be 29 or turning 29.

Parise, Suter, Staals (if Staal stayed on a minor center role) would be 36.
Dumba 26.
Brodin 28.
Greenway 24
JEE 24
Kunin 23

Then you'd add Kaprisov, at age 24.
If any others make it, they would be or turning, and obviously that means some would push others off the team or down the roster:
Sokolov 23
Johansson 21
Belpedio 25
McBain 21

It's an interesting look if the 29 year olds of the 2010 draft played with the 23-24 year olds, with of course Dumba and Brodin being between.

I don't know about you, but it's a decent team. Center looks like an issue. Wingers looks great. Defense still good. Goalie...well I didn't bother.

It's summer. I'm watching the end of the WC. I also do this because if we don't crash and burn, but keep 'tweaking' and keep making the PO's, this may very well happen.

Essentially, assuming no big FA signings, the Granlunds of the team become what the Parises were five years ago. Then, the Greenways and Kaprisovs kind of become what the Nino's and Granlunds are/were.

We kind of have these FA's that are old, then two waves of our draft picks.

Kunin 24 yrs old.
Kunin, Greenway , JEE all 1997 born
Still doesn't look bad

 

[57special]

We desperately need kaprizov to be at least as good as Granlund is now, or have someone else step up. For now, we have a really nice supporting staff...guys like Nino, Coyle, Zucker are good, useful players, but not guys who can lead the charge. Granlund has everything (offensively), but is limited physically. Don't see Kunin or Greenway turning into anything but good depth players. Ek might end up being a force, but more of a two way one.

I guess if Dumba continues to score he can provide "elite" offense from the back end, but I need to see him dominate more on the PP, where his risk taking is unlikely to hurt the team.

 

[Wabit]

I wonder how much Trouba's new contract will effect Dumba's contract? Trouba has his arbitration hearing on the 20th, so his numbers will be out before Dumba's on the 23rd hearing date. They have different styles of play, but are comparable players, close in: games, points, goals, assists, value/contributions to the team, age, ect.

After the troubles the Jets had with Trouba's last contract there's a chance the arbitrators might get to do something this year. I would have preferred Dumba to have an earlier arbitration date than Trouba, or at least the same day.

 

[Bazeek]

I wonder how much Trouba's new contract will effect Dumba's contract? Trouba has his arbitration hearing on the 20th, so his numbers will be out before Dumba's on the 23rd hearing date. They have different styles of play, but are comparable players, close in: games, points, goals, assists, value/contributions to the team, age, ect.

After the troubles the Jets had with Trouba's last contract there's a chance the arbitrators might get to do something this year. I would have preferred Dumba to have an earlier arbitration date than Trouba, or at least the same day.

I was thinking that Trouba had quite a few more games in the NHL because he got an earlier start, but his injuries the last few years have kept it closer than I thought. I think Trouba still has the better overall record so it should provide some sort of a ceiling on Dumba's contract, but it'd still be nice to have Dumba done before Friday.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

BPA refers to the scouting from the team, not the media's list lol.

We obviously don't have every teams internal list, so you cannot say it flies in the face of "the hockey world". It was said that some other teams had this player going in the 1st round. There is no reason to be that upset about a pick

I think it can be a little more complicated than that. I also think that the traded 2nd round pick factors in heavily here. There might have been someone on the BPA list ahead of FJ because of the player they can be day 1 but w/o a 2nd round pick they had to take FJ where they did because their long term grade on him is much higher than anyone who may have been ahead of him and fell in the draft. Speculation? Sure but I think it helps explain why it was a reach to many (me included). In short, there's more than one way to get to 'BPA'.

 

[123TripleDoge]

I think it can be a little more complicated than that. I also think that the traded 2nd round pick factors in heavily here. There might have been someone on the BPA list ahead of FJ because of the player they can be day 1 but w/o a 2nd round pick they had to take FJ where they did because their long term grade on him is much higher than anyone who may have been ahead of him and fell in the draft. Speculation? Sure but I think it helps explain why it was a reach to many (me included). In short, there's more than one way to get to 'BPA'.

It's still the BPA in their mind. Not going with their BPA would be them thinking "hey this d-man is the best player our board, but we really need to load up on center depth" and pick a center instead

 

[2Pair]

I think it can be a little more complicated than that. I also think that the traded 2nd round pick factors in heavily here. There might have been someone on the BPA list ahead of FJ because of the player they can be day 1 but w/o a 2nd round pick they had to take FJ where they did because their long term grade on him is much higher than anyone who may have been ahead of him and fell in the draft. Speculation? Sure but I think it helps explain why it was a reach to many (me included). In short, there's more than one way to get to 'BPA'.

If their "long term grade " for Johansson was higher than anyone else, then Johansson was the BPA

 

[MuckOG]

BPA refers to the scouting from the team, not the media's list lol.

We obviously don't have every teams internal list, so you cannot say it flies in the face of "the hockey world". It was said that some other teams had this player going in the 1st round. There is no reason to be that upset about a pick

In general, I agree with what you say. However, the Wild have lost a little bit of credibility IMO with how they've approached the draft over the past few years. They have developed a track record of valuing character and two-way play over all else and it seems to have bitten them in the behind when you look at players like Bussieres, Draeger, Gabriel, Lucia et al. and where they were picked and how they turned out.

So, it's no surprise to me that fans are a little gun shy.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

In general, I agree with what you say. However, the Wild have lost a little bit of credibility IMO with how they've approached the draft over the past few years. They have developed a track record of valuing character and two-way play over all else and it seems to have bitten them in the behind when you look at players like Bussieres, Draeger, Gabriel, Lucia et al. and where they were picked and how they turned out.

So, it's no surprise to me that fans are a little gun shy.

And for every one of those guys, there is a Dumba, Zucker, Greenway, Kaprizov, Sokolov, Belpedio, Khovanov who weren't necessarily draft for their "two-way play".

 

[MuckOG]

And for every one of those guys, there is a Dumba, Zucker, Greenway, Kaprizov, Sokolov, Belpedio, Khovanov who weren't necessarily draft for their "two-way play".

Good point....But I wasn't trying to suggest that character and two-way play were the only two factors, just that I feel they weigh those attributes higher than skill potential. One note, however....scouting reports indicate Zucker was indeed known for his two-way play coming into his draft year

No one can objectively look at the Wild and say that they have been among the best drafting teams in the NHL.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

In general, I agree with what you say. However, the Wild have lost a little bit of credibility IMO with how they've approached the draft over the past few years. They have developed a track record of valuing character and two-way play over all else and it seems to have bitten them in the behind when you look at players like Bussieres, Draeger, Gabriel, Lucia et al. and where they were picked and how they turned out.

So, it's no surprise to me that fans are a little gun shy.

Draeger was a third-round pick who was a standout at Shattuck and played first-pairing as a freshman at Michigan State. All four years those teams basically stunk, he had at least one bad knee injury, and ultimately didn't progress to the NHL level. I think it's very hard to find fault in that pick.

Bussieres was inexplicable.

Gabriel was definitely a 'character' pick - but he's a one-way player - make a hit, throw some punches, sit in the box.

Lucia was a bad gamble, but no team drafts a high school kid based on the idea that he'll be a two-way player. He had offensive upside and not that he was a bad college player, but his coach called it after his freshman year: he didn't have the intensity needed to thrive in pro hockey.

 

[stranger]

I wonder how much Trouba's new contract will effect Dumba's contract? Trouba has his arbitration hearing on the 20th, so his numbers will be out before Dumba's on the 23rd hearing date. They have different styles of play, but are comparable players, close in: games, points, goals, assists, value/contributions to the team, age, ect.

After the troubles the Jets had with Trouba's last contract there's a chance the arbitrators might get to do something this year. I would have preferred Dumba to have an earlier arbitration date than Trouba, or at least the same day.

Take whatever Trouba's contract ends up being and divide by two. Then you're in the ballpark for Dumba.

 

[AKL]

Take whatever Trouba's contract ends up being and divide by two. Then you're in the ballpark for Dumba.

Trouba’s gonna get that overpaid? Yikes. Would hate to be the Jets giving Trouba 10-12M

 

[Dickie Dunn]

If their "long term grade " for Johansson was higher than anyone else, then Johansson was the BPA

I guess I disagree but it could be semantics. I think 'BPA' can differ based upon goal. You could think that player A will be with us sooner and therefore better while still thinking that player B will be better in 4 years. Again, maybe just semantics.

 

[AKL]

And for every one of those guys, there is a Dumba, Zucker, Greenway, Kaprizov, Sokolov, Belpedio, Khovanov who weren't necessarily draft for their "two-way play".

I think character and leadership has historically been the Wild’s go to traits.

With that, I mean I’m not going to sit here and pretend to know all of these guys characters pre draft, I do know for a fact Zucker’s character and leadership was part of what made him attractive at the time. Despite Dumba’s defensive deficiencies, I don’t think his character was ever questioned. Kaprizov and Sokolov were “off the board” just because the Wild hadn’t been known for drafting Russians, but they were late round picks. Admittedly they’re both performing as 1st or 2nd rounders this far, so obviously draft position doesn’t mean much.

I think the feeling is that it would be nice if the Wild would take some of the guys who are seen as having a higher ceiling in the first round, rather than just take flyers on them in the later rounds. Guys like Bokk or Veleno or Wilde, who may have some weaknesses now, but also have things they excel at, rather than take a guy like Johansson, who doesn’t really excel at anything, despite not having any glaring weaknesses either.

But then we just get into another argument about who’s scouting is better and waiting and seeing and whatnot, and nobody wins and nobody leaves happy.

 

[tomgilbertfan]

Take whatever Trouba's contract ends up being and divide by two. Then you're in the ballpark for Dumba.

Wow, you think Trouba is gonna get at least $11M?

 

[2Pair]

Take whatever Trouba's contract ends up being and divide by two. Then you're in the ballpark for Dumba.

I hope you're right, but there isn't a GM in the league that takes Trouba over Dumba.

 

[ThatGuy22]

I hope you're right, but there isn't a GM in the league that takes Trouba over Dumba.

I've seen enough bad moves by bad GMs to know 100% that isn't true.

We've had a league MVP get traded for a #4 D very recently.

 

[ThatGuy22]

this is hilarious thatguy 22 so many of you say things like we should pick bpa yet you all support the wilds decision to go off the reservation. (cough hypocrite cough) sheep is thinking the wild are smarter than the rest of the hockey world. but hey its just a msg board think what you like. i could care less if any of you agree with me.

It's not my fault you appear to have zero ability to contextualize the nuance between a media driven BPA and the BPA on the Wild's list.

If you have evidence that the Wild had someone rated on their draft board higher than johansson, please post it so I can start sharpening my pitchfork and assembling torches for the upcoming mob.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

I've seen enough bad moves by bad GMs to know 100% that isn't true.

We've had a league MVP get traded for a #4 D very recently.

I won't disagree that it was a bad trade on the whole, but that logic would make Brodin a #5.

Dumba might well score more but Trouba is a better overall defender and lots of GMs (rightly) value that ability. Not sure why he's said to be seeking 7+ except that he wants to play elsewhere. There's a reason GMs and coaches value players like Larsson, Trouba and even Greg Pateryn - it's still a physical game and defending the crease is a big part of it. Doesn't always show up in the box score.

 

[ThatGuy22]

I won't disagree that it was a bad trade on the whole, but that logic would make Brodin a #5.

Dumba might well score more but Trouba is a better overall defender and lots of GMs (rightly) value that ability. Not sure why he's said to be seeking 7+ except that he wants to play elsewhere. There's a reason GMs and coaches value players like Larsson, Trouba and even Greg Pateryn - it's still a physical game and defending the crease is a big part of it. Doesn't always show up in the box score.

That logic would only make Brodin a #5 if you thought Larsson is significantly better than Brodin.

There are two other options
1) They are relatively the same, making Brodin also a #4.
2) Brodin is better, how significantly better you think Brodin is better determines if he's a #1 - #3.

Either are more reasonable options, but I lean towards option 2 with Brodin being slightly better and he would be a #3 on most teams.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

That logic would only make Brodin a #5 if you thought Larsson is significantly better than Brodin.

There are two other options
1) They are relatively the same, making Brodin also a #4.
2) Brodin is better, how significantly better you think Brodin is better determines if he's a #1 - #3.

Either are more reasonable options, but I lean towards option 2 with Brodin being slightly better and he would be a #3 on most teams.

So would Larsson. And on a shallower team he's a number one - a guy that gets results in all situations although providing little offense. And that's why an NHL GM traded Taylor Hall for him. I really don't think many GMs have Brodin ahead of Larsson or Dumba ahead of Trouba (recognize that you didn't claim that) because it's obvious that they are the second pairing.

 

[ThatGuy22]

So would Larsson. And on a shallower team he's a number one - a guy that gets results in all situations although providing little offense. And that's why an NHL GM traded Taylor Hall for him. I really don't think many GMs have Brodin ahead of Larsson or Dumba ahead of Trouba (recognize that you didn't claim that) because it's obvious that they are the second pairing.

That's where we disagree, I don't think Larsson is on average a #3. I think he's one of the more over-rated players in the league, and continue to be fascinated by how his reputation hasn't caught up to what he is.

First NJ fans performed mental gymnastics blaming the coaching/partners/usage for his poor results. Now Oiler's fans seem to do the same thing in order to justify a bad trade. Somehow his HFBoards reputation hasn't caught up to the fact that he's at best average in any one thing. He's a defensive defensemen that doesn't get good defensive results.