Player Discussion Micheal Ferland

[kcunac]

I feel like there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on here. Full disclosure, I liked the signing at the time. Yes we went more term than others, but that's where UFAs go - to the best deal. I knew about the injuries and concussions, and certainly Benning and the Canucks knew more (or should have known more). But let's not pretend that medicine is all knowing and could predict whether Ferland would play again (safely or not) and be effective. On the personality side, which is probably easier to evaluate, clearly this player wants to play and give it all. So, the real risk was to the owner, not the team. This player will play hard if at all possible and if not he is on LTIR.

And let's not pretend that his desire to play despite his injuries is not a trait that has been praised in this sport for generations. Frankly, I also find it admirable. Of course, the players should be protected, even from themselves. That's why employers normally would have to ensure a safe working condition. Not the NHL, thanks to the CBA. And here is where I think things should change, but it also requires the fans to care more about players' health than entertainment. I think some of the posts here are a positive reflection of that change in thinking, though often misguided by blaming the player or the team. Is everyone just expecting that this player walks out on his teammates and his contract when he wants to play and contribute (and we're not talking about a Harvard graduate here folks, though my rant on the CHL is for another place)? What exactly do they think the Canucks are supposed to do - buy him out and have him count to the cap when instead he could be on LTIR? This is a health and safety issue that is between the player's association and the league, driven by fan mores and co-worker expectations.

I'm sad for Ferland, his health, and the team for missing his potential contributions - but frankly this was probably the worst case scenario with this signing and its not going to have a negative impact beyond the actual dollars paid by ownership. There are so many worse signings to complain about.

 

[timw33]

if the canucks are smart they work on the nhl/nhlpa to allow a compliance buyout window to manage the flat cap.

New CBA extension was already signed, with no compliance buyouts.

 

[Boose Brudreau]

I feel like there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on here. Full disclosure, I liked the signing at the time. Yes we went more term than others, but that's where UFAs go - to the best deal. I knew about the injuries and concussions, and certainly Benning and the Canucks knew more (or should have known more). But let's not pretend that medicine is all knowing and could predict whether Ferland would play again (safely or not) and be effective. On the personality side, which is probably easier to evaluate, clearly this player wants to play and give it all. So, the real risk was to the owner, not the team. This player will play hard if at all possible and if not he is on LTIR.

And let's not pretend that his desire to play despite his injuries is not a trait that has been praised in this sport for generations. Frankly, I also find it admirable. Of course, the players should be protected, even from themselves. That's why employers normally would have to ensure a safe working condition. Not the NHL, thanks to the CBA. And here is where I think things should change, but it also requires the fans to care more about players' health than entertainment. I think some of the posts here are a positive reflection of that change in thinking, though often misguided by blaming the player or the team. Is everyone just expecting that this player walks out on his teammates and his contract when he wants to play and contribute (and we're not talking about a Harvard graduate here folks, though my rant on the CHL is for another place)? What exactly do they think the Canucks are supposed to do - buy him out and have him count to the cap when instead he could be on LTIR? This is a health and safety issue that is between the player's association and the league, driven by fan mores and co-worker expectations.

I'm sad for Ferland, his health, and the team for missing his potential contributions - but frankly this was probably the worst case scenario with this signing and its not going to have a negative impact beyond the actual dollars paid by ownership. There are so many worse signings to complain about.

playing through pain is one thing, playing through a long running chain of head injuries is completely different and not admirable in the slightest IMO. Ferland is going down a road that has led others to take their own lives. the fact there isn't anything in the CBA to deal with this situation (if that is indeed true) tells me the NHL is WAY behind the curve when it come to dealing with head injuries.

 

[deckercky]

Just a reminder, LTIR isn't exactly a magic solution that makes all your problems go away. It comes with a lot of complexities, especially in the offseason and during the first days of the season when you are trying to maximize it's benefit.

I think those complexities, and the benefits, were overstated. Gillis and Nonis did juggling to have some accrued cap space at the deadline despite LTIR. If Ferland is shut down, it will be like the Leafs were this past year - shut him down in the summer and you free up the space, but you never accrue any cap space for deadline acquisitions.

I think the Canucks need to have a tough talk with Ferland, and get him to commit to sitting out a year to heal (assuming team doctors recommend he be shut down). If he is symptom free for an extended period and gets medical support for his return, they can discuss a return the following year, but having Ferland fight to return at some point next season puts his health at risk while putting the team in a situation where they may need to juggle salary at a moment's notice.

 

[Bankerguy]

People are talking like his career is done.

has anyone confirmed if him being unfit to play is in fact concussion related? has that been leaked? because during the broadcast someone said he got hit with a puck....

 

[tantalum]

People are talking like his career is done.

has anyone confirmed if him being unfit to play is in fact concussion related? has that been leaked? because during the broadcast someone said he got hit with a puck....

Report by Dreger that he has concussion-like symptoms and has exited the bubble and gone home. But I think that's it.

 

[Bankerguy]

Report by Dreger that he has concussion-like symptoms and has exited the bubble and gone home. But I think that's it.

ahhhh i believe it.
the fact that he's left the bubble and gone home.... to me that's serious and not a bump/bruise etc.

If he retires due to this injury, do the Canucks get back the 3.5MM in cap space for each of the next three years?

 

[moog35]

I think those complexities, and the benefits, were overstated. Gillis and Nonis did juggling to have some accrued cap space at the deadline despite LTIR. If Ferland is shut down, it will be like the Leafs were this past year - shut him down in the summer and you free up the space, but you never accrue any cap space for deadline acquisitions.

I think the Canucks need to have a tough talk with Ferland, and get him to commit to sitting out a year to heal (assuming team doctors recommend he be shut down). If he is symptom free for an extended period and gets medical support for his return, they can discuss a return the following year, but having Ferland fight to return at some point next season puts his health at risk while putting the team in a situation where they may need to juggle salary at a moment's notice.

agreed that the best course of action would be to sit him out for next season no matter what. This could just be a lingering concussion not multiple different ones. Sitting out a year at minimum will give him an extended period of time to heal. Taking these playoffs off would have been the best course of action considering the next season will have a later start date but the team dropped the ball with that.

Hopefully with a year off he can fully recover and attempt a comeback if that’s what he wants to do

 

[JiffyPB]

ahhhh i believe it.
the fact that he's left the bubble and gone home.... to me that's serious and not a bump/bruise etc.

If he retires due to this injury, do the Canucks get back the 3.5MM in cap space for each of the next three years?

In theory, yes. In reality, why retire when he can just sit on LTIR for 3 more years and cash in 10.5 million. Either way, as long as he doesn't play the Canucks get cap relief.

 

[Peter10]

In theory, yes. In reality, why retire when he can just sit on LTIR for 3 more years and cash in 10.5 million. Either way, as long as he doesn't play the Canucks get cap relief.

Only if they exceed the upper limit (which is very likely) but that also means any bonus money earned by the ELC players will automatically defer to the next year

 

[Bankerguy]

In theory, yes. In reality, why retire when he can just sit on LTIR for 3 more years and cash in 10.5 million. Either way, as long as he doesn't play the Canucks get cap relief.

I believe then he would also be taking up a contract spot and we only get like 50? that sucks....but the cap relief is a MUST for the next two years for sure.

 

[StreetHawk]

I think those complexities, and the benefits, were overstated. Gillis and Nonis did juggling to have some accrued cap space at the deadline despite LTIR. If Ferland is shut down, it will be like the Leafs were this past year - shut him down in the summer and you free up the space, but you never accrue any cap space for deadline acquisitions.

I think the Canucks need to have a tough talk with Ferland, and get him to commit to sitting out a year to heal (assuming team doctors recommend he be shut down). If he is symptom free for an extended period and gets medical support for his return, they can discuss a return the following year, but having Ferland fight to return at some point next season puts his health at risk while putting the team in a situation where they may need to juggle salary at a moment's notice.

Thing with Ferland is that he isn’t struggling with these symptoms over extended periods of time. They don’t come on and off 2 weeks apart. He simply isn’t able to remain in the lineup past a couple of games.

the concern has to be at some point he may no longer be this fortunate and the next time he will suffer random headaches, dizziness, etc randomly weeks apart.

so, is more time off really going to improve things? He’s passed all tests and milestones along the way to returning to play all 3 of these returns from the original concussion in October.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Looking at LTIR rules, it looks like we would have to be at The cap ceiling- Ferland's contract to start training camp.

During the season we could go up to 3.5m over the ACSL. Where ACSL is equal to the cap ceiling minus cap space.

I can see why teams have traded these LTIR contracts to Arizona.

 

[StreetHawk]

Looking at LTIR rules, it looks like we would have to be at The cap ceiling- Ferland's contract to start training camp.

During the season we could go up to 3.5m over the ACSL. Where ACSL is equal to the cap ceiling minus cap space.

I can see why teams have traded these LTIR contracts to Arizona.

Catch 22 now. Seen the young guys perform well, but they need depth help. So you can’t sacrifice other young future depth for just next season.

already given up madden, 1st and second for miller and Toffoli.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Catch 22 now. Seen the young guys perform well, but they need depth help. So you can’t sacrifice other young future depth for just next season.

already given up madden, 1st and second for miller and Toffoli.

We're losing either veterans that are still important players, young roster players, or futures. There is no way around it.

If we are unable to move out any salary, we would have about 13.5m to resign Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, Virtanen, Gaudette, Stecher, and Motte. Putting Ferland on LTIR actually makes it tougher to resign our players.

I wonder what the penalty is for being over the allowed amount at training camp. Fines? Losing draft picks? With how little cap space teams have this year, that makes signing our UFAs then trying to get below they cap really risky.

 

[VanCity Millionaires]

Has there been any update from the team on this player? Will he ever play professional hockey again? Can someone briefly summarize the cap implications of his current status?

Thanks in advance.

 

[NuxFan09]

Don't think he ever plays another game. I don't know how it works with the cap in cases like these though.

 

[Fatass]

Don't think he ever plays another game. I don't know how it works with the cap in cases like these though.

To get paid he needs to continue to try and play, unless expert doctors say otherwise. So until the doctors announce he’s done, he can’t - even if he believes he is. After each season his cap goes back on the books. When the new season starts his contract can then be put onto LTIR for cap relief. His contract isn’t insured, so Aquilini is on the hook for the full amount.
Thanks Benning.

 

[StreetHawk]

To get paid he needs to continue to try and play, unless expert doctors say otherwise. So until the doctors announce he’s done, he can’t - even if he believes he is. After each season his cap goes back on the books. When the new season starts his contract can then be put onto LTIR for cap relief. His contract isn’t insured, so Aquilini is on the hook for the full amount.
Thanks Benning.

When a contract can’t be insured then that is a signal to limit your risk exposure and offer shorter term. His contract should not have gone past this season if he was not insurable.

 

[Hit the post]

When a contract can’t be insured then that is a signal to limit your risk exposure and offer shorter term. His contract should not have gone past this season if he was not insurable.

One less reason for a team that wants to obtain such a contract to reach the cap floor (where they pay essentially nothing as insurance picks up the tab).

 

[Fatass]

When a contract can’t be insured then that is a signal to limit your risk exposure and offer shorter term. His contract should not have gone past this season if he was not insurable.

That’s on .benning/Brod. Ferland appears to be a good family man, so well done for him. But Benning should never even consider contracts that no insurance company will touch. Like you suggest, Max two years for those, if at all.

 

[Fatass]

One less reason for a team that wants to obtain such a contract to reach the cap floor (where they pay essentially nothing as insurance picks up the tab).

Didn’t the Leafs take on Clarkson’s contract from Columbus (was it?) because it wasn’t insured, and they got draft capital to do so.
Aquilini can not be happy with Benning on this Ferland contract.

 

[StreetHawk]

Didn’t the Leafs take on Clarkson’s contract from Columbus (was it?) because it wasn’t insured, and they got draft capital to do so.
Aquilini can not be happy with Benning on this Ferland contract.

No, it was Horton who was not insured by Columbus. They swapped Horton for clarkson since they would get someone who would actually play as they were a budget team. Toronto got an ltir contract that they had no issue paying.

clarkson eventually ended up on Ltir so the leafs picked him up in a cap move for themselves.

surprised that Aquaman signed off on its. I mean if he gets ripped for meddling the shouldn’t he have given his okay on this deal?

 

[Hit the post]

No, it was Horton who was not insured by Columbus. They swapped Horton for clarkson since they would get someone who would actually play as they were a budget team. Toronto got an ltir contract that they had no issue paying.

clarkson eventually ended up on Ltir so the leafs picked him up in a cap move for themselves.

surprised that Aquaman signed off on its. I mean if he gets ripped for meddling the shouldn’t he have given his okay on this deal?

Aquaman was many things but being cheap wasn't one of them. Granted, easier to spend other people's money (ie., inherited empire) *and* property values (at the time) getting higher than Hit the Post smoking weed all week long.

 

[JanBulisPiggyBack]

I wouldn’t exactly say Gaunce or Dowd are better than Beagle
Myers has been better than any of the defenseman we have let go
You can argue the contractual status all you like and you would be correct but the Canucks are a better team with Beagle, Myers on it
Ferlund on the other hand you can’t quantify....it’s a net loss