Dreger: Members of Leafs management attended the Canes/Flames game last night. Scouting defense

[GIN ANTONIC]

The thing is- teams generally don’t trade valuable roster players at the deadline. They’re looking to add finishing pieces, not change up the team’s chemistry, with ~30 games to go.

And that’s fine... but your a package of futures you don’t get someone like Pesce or Hamilton. You get upcoming UFAs or in this case maybe a guy like Faulk who has an extra year.

 

[Burnie97]

Canes fans are very happy to keep Pesce. He’s a perfect complimentary 1st pair RHD who is constantly deferring to the Canes #1 in Slavin. Canes don’t need him to put up points because he is a defensive rock against the best opponents in the NHL and allows Slavin to be more dynamic.

A smarter Leafs fan would realize that Pesce would be the perfect compliment to Rielly as well. If you think about it, you’d realize it isn’t possible for Rielly to have a 50+ point partner on top of being so offensively dynamic himself. He wants the puck on his stick and he wants to make plays. The partner you want for Rielly is in the exact mold of Pesce. Silly some Leafs fans can’t seem to grasp that.

However, Pesce is available. $4 million x 6 years will be one of the best contracts in the league sooner rather than later. Budget Canes keep their core, bargain players. Deal Faulk or Hamilton instead.

It's funny how all I basically said was ... personally I feel Canes fans over value Pesce.

The main point of my post was that the return for giving up Nylander and Kadri isn't enough coming back from the Canes... in my opinion... which is allowed... as is your opinion.

But then when your whole post took a turn to be condescending towards my intelligence ... well whatever makes you feel better.

I'm well aware that Rielly needs a better partner. Again not for the price you guys all seem to want. Rielly has 50 points... without Pesce... so I think he's still doing Pretty good without paying that price.

If you don't agree that's fine.

There's no deal to be made. Which I made pretty clear by my post. You don't have to be an asshole though.

It's good to see you can articulate yourself so well... but when you are condescending at the same time without knowing what someone knows about a subject... you lose all credibility.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Canes and Flames are two teams with an "excess" of Dmen. Seems logical that they would be two teams that would be scouted by any playoff contenders. Canes have edged themselves into serious playoff contention. There are many tight races for playoff spots, I just don't know if these teams want to "weaken" their teams this year by trading for futures.

 

[spockBokk]

Why is it Dubas? Maybe Waddell isn't willing to make a fair deal?

Could very well be Waddell overvaluing his guys. However, I'm making my assumption based on the media narratives, although they may be inaccurate, that Dubas is calling players such as Kapanen unavailable. All reports say CAR is willing to deal one of their RD for a top 6 guy, and those same reports assume that Dubas isn't offering what CAR would be looking for.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's true that Dubas would not relinquish a Kapanen type player for a D like Pesce or Hamilton (and yes, I know Pesce fits what TOR needs more). He'd be daft to draw a line over a guy who hasn't yet hit 50pts and may command over $4M on his next deal, when his team could really use long-term, cost effective solution in top 4 RD and also will need all the cap space they can muster to re-up Marner and Matthews. But that's just me...

 

[Masked Superstar]

Carolina:
Johnsson
Puljujarvi
Leafs 2nd 2019
Rattie

Toronto:
Pesces
Kassian

Edmonton:
Brown
Moore
Ferland
J. Gauthier

Sorry I am bored and wanted a stab at a three-way trade. Car get offense/prospects, tor gets defense/grit, EDM gets heart.

That's a pretty nice return for Kassian and Rattie

 

[Crazy Monkey]

That's a pretty nice return for Kassian and Rattie

You missed Pulijujavi

 

[BB88]

Apparently being right handed counts as a super power in the hf trade market.

Yeah because Johnsson+ late 1st is so valuable.

Larsson went for Hall, Jones for Johansen, Pesce isn't as good/doesn't have the potential of Jones but he does have even better contract than Larsson had, and I prefer him over Larsson.

Doesn't mean Pesce goes for the same but if you want Pesce type you need to put up value on the table, Carolina has zero reasons to move him for futures/garbage. If he moves he moves to address an actual weakness on the lineup.

 

[NiL8r87]

Yeah because Johnsson+ late 1st is so valuable.

Larsson went for Hall, Jones for Johansen, Pesce isn't as good/doesn't have the potential of Jones but he does have even better contract than Larsson had, and I prefer him over Larsson.

It's not "so" valuable but it does have value. Any 1st does really. Of course Carolina probably doesn't want a depth winger and a pick for a dman given the position they're in so I agree they wouldn't take it.

 

[Leaf Fans]

To Carolina : Kadri and Nylander
To Toronto : Pesce, Faulk, Wallmark, 2nd

Toronto gets a big boost on the back end, a replacement for Kadri, and some cap relief.

Carolina gets a two-way 2C and a playmaking top 6 winger.

No thanks. Too much from Toronto.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Yeah because Johnsson+ late 1st is so valuable.

Larsson went for Hall, Jones for Johansen, Pesce isn't as good/doesn't have the potential of Jones but he does have even better contract than Larsson had, and I prefer him over Larsson.

Doesn't mean Pesce goes for the same but if you want Pesce type you need to put up value on the table, Carolina has zero reasons to move him for futures/garbage. If he moves he moves to address an actual weakness on the lineup.

Not the best value, but good value. We would only get Pesce. Good defender for good value.

 

[BB88]

It's not "so" valuable but it does have value. Any 1st does really. Of course Carolina probably doesn't want a depth winger and a pick for a dman given the position they're in so I agree they wouldn't take it.

Carolina could use a real quality top6 forward who fits their core, via trade Pesce is their best trade asset to get that, late 1st does nothing for them and makes them worse. So if the best asset they can get is a late 1st why bother?
Their goal is to break the non playoff streak as soon as possible, again why even bother if they'd be willing to trade Pesce for that.

Carolina can build around their defense for years with Slavin& Pesce, give them a reason to break it up.
They are likely looking at quality extra assets soon for Ferland, they don't need futures, they need now NHL ready quality.

Not the best value, but good value. We would only get Pesce. Good defender for good value.

You would get a steal in Pesce for 1st+ Johnsson, Carolina would get laughed at.

 

[spockBokk]

Yeah...Johnsson doesn’t sniff Pesce even with a 1st added. CAR has their own “Johnsson” in the minors at the moment-Kuokkanen. He’s younger, higher pedigree and he doesn’t need to be re-signed next year since he’ll still be on his ELC.

Johnsson with a + will get you a Faulk, but no where near a Hamilton or Pesce.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Carolina could use a real quality top6 forward who fits their core, via trade Pesce is their best trade asset to get that, late 1st does nothing for them and makes them worse. So if the best asset they can get is a late 1st why bother?
Their goal is to break the non playoff streak as soon as possible, again why even bother if they'd be willing to trade Pesce for that.

Carolina can build around their defense for years with Slavin& Pesce, give them a reason to break it up.
They are likely looking at quality extra assets soon for Ferland, they don't need futures, they need now NHL ready quality.



You would get a steal in Pesce for 1st+ Johnsson, Carolina would get laughed at.

I don't think so. Pesce is a solid defender, but doesn't provide any offence.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I’d leafs fans want to propose a package for Pesce then it’s Kap + Johnsson + 1st as a base

 

[Leaf Fans]

I’d leafs fans want to propose a package for Pesce then it’s Kap + Johnsson + 1st as a base

I highly doubt that.

 

[BB88]

I don't think so. Pesce is a solid defender, but doesn't provide any offence.

He's atleast a top3 RD signed for 5.5 years at 4M, keep dreaming of getting him with a player who solves no issues for Carolina.

Kaps for 3rd.

 

[Leaf Fans]

He's atleast a top3 RD signed for 5.5 years at 4M, keep dreaming of getting him with a player who solves no issues for Carolina.

Usually pundits say that goaltending and scoring are Carolina's issues.

 

[Burnie97]

I’d leafs fans want to propose a package for Pesce then it’s Kap + Johnsson + 1st as a base

Keep him then.

Pesce is in the ilk of f***ing Scott Stevens as a shut down defender apparently. . Seeing what Canes fans want is insane.

If this is how actual negoations were going... no wonder why there hasn't been a trade yet.

There won't be with over valuing like that.

That as a base.... lol... c'mon.

 

[GoldiFox]

It's funny how all I basically said was ... personally I feel Canes fans over value Pesce.

The main point of my post was that the return for giving up Nylander and Kadri isn't enough coming back from the Canes... in my opinion... which is allowed... as is your opinion.

But then when your whole post took a turn to be condescending towards my intelligence ... well whatever makes you feel better.

I'm well aware that Rielly needs a better partner. Again not for the price you guys all seem to want. Rielly has 50 points... without Pesce... so I think he's still doing Pretty good without paying that price.

If you don't agree that's fine.

There's no deal to be made. Which I made pretty clear by my post. You don't have to be an ******* though.

It's good to see you can articulate yourself so well... but when you are condescending at the same time without knowing what someone knows about a subject... you lose all credibility.

Forgive me if I don't care about internet credibility. This is a debate forum, I care only about your the argument you present. Clearly you and I have dissimilar opinions as you state: "Defensive defenseman don't fetch as much in a return. He has 66 points in 257 games". My issue with your post is this argument lacks thoughtfulness (as well as being historically inaccurate). Why do you think "defensive D" lack value? Because they are generally though of as slow or lack mobility? Because they don't pinch or join the rush? Because they are unable to contribute to offense? I think you'd find that none of this traditional "defensive D" reasoning applies to Pesce. A 1st pairing two-way D's value should be not be dictated by his points and his value as an asset isn't significantly different than other roles. More often than not trades exist as a need and surplus from one team filling a need and surplus from another team.

Rielly broke out and has 50 points in-part because because of Ron Hainsey. Hainsey plays the same role in Toronto next to Rielly as he played next to Justin Faulk when Faulk was putting up 40-50 point paces each season. Hainsey is 100% complimentary and constantly deferring to Rielly. Pesce is a 24 year old idealized version of Hainsey who is signed for 5 years beyond this one at $4 million per year.

In contrast, put Seth Jones next to Rielly and I think you would see what I'm getting at. Two guys who constantly want the puck. Two guys who want to be the one taking the shots. Two guys who want to make the breakout pass. Two guys who want to pick their guy to play on defense and expect his partner to shift. It's easy to lose sight of the value of a top-pairing complimentary D who can 1) let their partner be the dynamic #1D they are, 2) constantly concede to their partner's actions on the ice, and 3) do it all while playing top competition.

For the same reasoning I see Leafs fans wanting a player like Josh Manson. I think that route is their best bet. Pick up the guy who will compliment Rielly rather than being so focused on what they are individually.

 

[Rob Brown]

Yeah...Johnsson doesn’t sniff Pesce even with a 1st added. CAR has their own “Johnsson” in the minors at the moment-Kuokkanen. He’s younger, higher pedigree and he doesn’t need to be re-signed next year since he’ll still be on his ELC.

Johnsson with a + will get you a Faulk, but no where near a Hamilton or Pesce.

How exactly? Johnsson was 0.78 PPG over two seasons in the AHL vs. 0.70 for PPG for Kuokkanen and he is now producing full-time at the NHL level. He won Playoffs MVP and went 1.5 PPG in the playoffs this past spring.

Johnsson is older, sure, but I'm curious why you think this.

 

[Rob Brown]

I’d leafs fans want to propose a package for Pesce then it’s Kap + Johnsson + 1st as a base

As a base? As in you think there would be more going back to the Canes? Jeepers.

 

[spockBokk]

I’d leafs fans want to propose a package for Pesce then it’s Kap + Johnsson + 1st as a base

I very highly doubt that’d ever be on the table, but it does match up with what McKenzie said the other day about what the cost would be for a “good” D.

 

[BB88]

Usually pundits say that goaltending and scoring are Carolina's issues.

So we agree what their weaknessess are, yet you offer no solutions.

 

[Rob Brown]

So we agree what their weaknessess are, yet you offer no solutions.

I've seen Nylander, Kadri, Kapanen and Johnsson all mentioned in this thread in various proposals. How are those not solutions?

 

[spockBokk]

How exactly? Johnsson was 0.78 PPG over two seasons in the AHL vs. 0.70 for PPG for Kuokkanen and he is now producing full-time at the NHL level. He won Playoffs MVP and went 1.5 PPG in the playoffs this past spring.

Johnsson is older, sure, but I'm curious why you think this.

He’s older, not as highly rated coming out of the draft, etc. etc. Sure, he’s producing now, but Kuokkanen is tracking to become him or a better version of him that’s younger and will be much cheaper for the foreseeable future. Johnsson just isn’t what the Canes really need.

What they really need:

Right shot top 6 forwards
Top 6 C
#1 Goalie