Dreger: Members of Leafs management attended the Canes/Flames game last night. Scouting defense

[BB88]

I've seen Nylander, Kadri, Kapanen and Johnsson all mentioned in this thread in various proposals. How are those not solutions?

I was replying to Johnsson+ 1st for Pesce value, and if you read these threads+ Dubas rumours majority has the 1st 3 off the table right now for Pesce.

 

[Rob Brown]

He’s older, not as highly rated coming out of the draft, etc. etc. Sure, he’s producing now, but Kuokkanen is tracking to become him or a better version of him that’s younger and will be much cheaper for the foreseeable future. Johnsson just isn’t what the Canes really need.

What they really need:

Right shot top 6 forwards
Top 6 C
#1 Goalie

Seeing that Johnsson has played two full AHL seasons and is tracking to play a full NHL season this year, draft projections are pretty irrelevant now. And what do you mean he's performing "now"? It's not like he started slowly. He's performed since his rookie season in the AHL.

If you don't think the Canes need him that's fine, I'm not a Canes fan so I won't pretend to know. But I don't think it's glaringly obvious that he has more pedigree than Johnsson.

 

[howkie]

It would probably look exactly like these threads....
Leafs fans wanting a lot for JVR much like Canes fans wanting a lot for their players. All the while fans of other teams telling us how bad JVR was and offering bupkis...sound familiar?

Yeap
So can you all meet in the middle?

 

[Burnie97]

Forgive me if I don't care about internet credibility. This is a debate forum, I care only about your the argument you present. Clearly you and I have dissimilar opinions as you state: "Defensive defenseman don't fetch as much in a return. He has 66 points in 257 games". My issue with your post is this argument lacks thoughtfulness (as well as being historically inaccurate). Why do you think "defensive D" lack value? Because they are generally though of as slow or lack mobility? Because they don't pinch or join the rush? Because they are unable to contribute to offense? I think you'd find that none of this traditional "defensive D" reasoning applies to Pesce. A 1st pairing two-way D's value should be not be dictated by his points and his value as an asset isn't significantly different than other roles. More often than not trades exist as a need and surplus from one team filling a need and surplus from another team.

Rielly broke out and has 50 points in-part because because of Ron Hainsey. Hainsey plays the same role in Toronto next to Rielly as he played next to Justin Faulk when Faulk was putting up 40-50 point paces each season. Hainsey is 100% complimentary and constantly deferring to Rielly. Pesce is a 24 year old idealized version of Hainsey who is signed for 5 years beyond this one at $4 million per year.

In contract, put Seth Jones next to Rielly and I think you would see what I'm getting at. Two guys who constantly want the puck. Two guys who want to be the one taking the shots. Two guys who want to make the breakout pass. Two guys who want to pick their guy to play on defense and expect his partner to shift.

You really like to be long winded and add a bunch of flowery bullshit to your post to sound like you know what's up, but considering credibilty isn't important to you speaks volumes.

Historically if you want to go that route.. d who put up points get paid more.

I value stay at home defenceman, but they aren't paid the same. I didn't come up with the pay scheme but generally putting the puck in the net will help you out on a contract.

Again for that price... Pesce is not worth it in my opinion. You're trying to turn the disagreement into something that it's not. So I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

Enjoy Pesce... he is by your standards amazing.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Is Johnsson even cleared to play yet after suffering his second concussion? It would seem to me any trade with him is now off the table pending him clearing concussion protocol. GM's would be very leary of trading for him due to this unknown.

 

[Leaf Fans]

So we agree what their weaknessess are, yet you offer no solutions.

Huh? I thought whoever proposed AJ and a first had a good idea.

 

[Oak]

Funny how bad Dubas did with the Nylander contract. Such great trades would be available if he was being paid a reasonable price.

Kadri, Nylander+ for Pesce and Faulk.

Leafs looking like a serious cup contender with those 2 dmen added.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Funny how bad Dubas did with the Nylander contract. Such great trades would be available if he was being paid a reasonable price.

Kadri, Nylander+ for Pesce and Faulk.

Leafs looking like a serious cup contender with those 2 dmen added.

Hell to the no. Kadri has back to back 30 goal seasons as a 3c and Nylander would be one of the highest upside forwards on the Canes. They need something better than Faulk if Pesce is the other piece.

 

[Oak]

No thanks. Too much from Toronto.

Thats a steal for Toronto are you kidding me?

 

[glucker]

And that’s fine... but your a package of futures you don’t get someone like Pesce or Hamilton. You get upcoming UFAs or in this case maybe a guy like Faulk who has an extra year.

I've said it a few times- I don't expect these two teams to make a trade for one of those big guys before the deadline. Maybe in the offseason the Leafs would be more willing to move a guy like Kadri, when they can make other moves to address their center depth.

 

[Cotton]

Funny how bad Dubas did with the Nylander contract. Such great trades would be available if he was being paid a reasonable price.

Kadri, Nylander+ for Pesce and Faulk.

Leafs looking like a serious cup contender with those 2 dmen added.

Lmao, wow that's bad.

 

[Raging Bull]

Funny how bad Dubas did with the Nylander contract. Such great trades would be available if he was being paid a reasonable price.

Kadri, Nylander+ for Pesce and Faulk.

Leafs looking like a serious cup contender with those 2 dmen added.

"Such great trades" then you propose an absolute shit show that would destroy the offensive depth and strength of the team yet somehow turn it into a serious cup contender?

 

[Stickpucker]

Keep him then.

Pesce is in the ilk of ****ing Scott Stevens as a shut down defender apparently. . Seeing what Canes fans want is insane.

If this is how actual negoations were going... no wonder why there hasn't been a trade yet.

There won't be with over valuing like that.

That as a base.... lol... c'mon.

Leaf fans value Kapanen like he f***ing Teemu Selanne.

 

[ToDavid]

Funny how bad Dubas did with the Nylander contract. Such great trades would be available if he was being paid a reasonable price.

Kadri, Nylander+ for Pesce and Faulk.

Leafs looking like a serious cup contender with those 2 dmen added.

You call that a "great" trade?

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I highly doubt that.

Keep him then.

Pesce is in the ilk of ****ing Scott Stevens as a shut down defender apparently. . Seeing what Canes fans want is insane.

If this is how actual negoations were going... no wonder why there hasn't been a trade yet.

There won't be with over valuing like that.

That as a base.... lol... c'mon.

As a base? As in you think there would be more going back to the Canes? Jeepers.

Perfectly fine. We will happily keep our top 3 RHD defender on a long term sweetheart contract then. We’re not the ones looking to move him.

TVR for 2nd + 3rd sounds like it’s right up your alley then.

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

Funny how bad Dubas did with the Nylander contract. Such great trades would be available if he was being paid a reasonable price.

Kadri, Nylander+ for Pesce and Faulk.

Leafs looking like a serious cup contender with those 2 dmen added.

This exact trade was proposed only a page back. It was a terrible idea /proposal then, and certainly hasn't aged well. It was ridiculed as this one rightfully will be ( and has been) as well .

 

[Fogelhund]

Thats a steal for Toronto are you kidding me?

It's most certainly not a steal, but then I don't think the value is as far off as other Leafs fans do... it's just not a trade that the Leafs could do, as it would destroy their offensive depth, as is. It's not a trade that Carolina would do either, as it would destroy their Right Side D. Under any assumption that Leafs would acquire two RHD from Carolina, you'd have to send one back.. probably Zaitsev, which would get Carolina fans up in arms....

The trade just ends up getting bigger... LOL

Kadri. Nylander, Zaitsev, +2019 1st + 2020 2nd for Pesce, Faulk, Hallmark, Gauthier, Koukkanen

I'd do that from the Leafs perspective.

 

[Burnie97]

Leaf fans value Kapanen like he ****ing Teemu Selanne.

Then maybe quote one of those fans that thinks that.

 

[Fables]

Before the season I would have said that Leafs and Hurricanes are a great match to make a deal. But now I don't really believe there is anything they can agree on.

If we take Dubas for this word and assume that he will not trade Nylander and that Kapanen is out of bounds then there is nothing that that Leafs can offer for Pesce that would also make remotely sense for Carolina... even with some minor modifications. And Pesce would be a perfect fit for Toronto. Johnsson or late first are nowhere near the value of stay-at-home top four/pairing young RHD who is on a sweetheart of a deal for several years. So as one-to-one assets they make no sense for Carolina. And as a team who has the best team AHL and who is trying to make the last moves to become a playoff team with young core they definitely should not make any quality for quantity deals. It may make sense for a team going into the rebuild the take quantity for quality but not for a team trying to get out of one.

Kadri could make sense for Carolina if the was 2-3 years younger but not now. And If Leafs want to compete in the play-offs this year I don't think they can afford to deal Kadri. Maybe at the trade-deadline but not now.

Hamilton is also probably out of the question because Leafs don't seem to be willing to pay what he is worth (like with Pesce)..except with quantity maybe and that should be a no no for Carolina. And also his best attributes are in offence and not tight defence.

Faulk has played much better defence this season and he could probably be had for something in the ballpark of Johnsson and/or pick but I don't think he is the right type of player for Toronto even though he would immediately make their defence better. Not an totally impossible scenario but I think Toronto should rather look at other teams for better options.

So the only target I believe could be realistic + sensible for Toronto remainst TVR who could probably be had for the kind of assets Toronto is willing to pay. Not impossible but I believe Carolina is rather trying to move Faulk.. or possibly Hamilton.

So all in all I will be very surprised if these teams reach any deal right now.

 

[Liferleafer]

Yeap
So can you all meet in the middle?

Doubt it.

 

[spockBokk]

Seeing that Johnsson has played two full AHL seasons and is tracking to play a full NHL season this year, draft projections are pretty irrelevant now. And what do you mean he's performing "now"? It's not like he started slowly. He's performed since his rookie season in the AHL.

If you don't think the Canes need him that's fine, I'm not a Canes fan so I won't pretend to know. But I don't think it's glaringly obvious that he has more pedigree than Johnsson.

My point was that CAR already has their Johnsson, they don’t need any more similar guys. Hell, I think you could argue that Wallmark is tracking like Johnsson and plays a more valuable position at C. There’s very similar players either already on the roster or marinating in the minors, so Johnsson doesn’t really fill the need of top 6 guy for CAR that couldn’t be filled from within.

They don’t have anyone like Kapanen and they don’t have anyone like Kadri. So I think those are the 2 attractive assets for CAR off of the TOR roster. We could argue player valuations all day. What matters though to CAR is that they want to compete now and they’re looking to fill roster holes if they deal one of Pesce or Hamilton. Johnsson doesn’t fill any of their current holes, so I highly doubt there’s any interest there from the CAR side unless it’s Faulk that Dubas is after due to the cheaper asking prices.

 

[Roboturner913]

Then maybe quote one of those fans that thinks that.

You just got done saying Canes fans value Pesce like he's Scott Stevens right after a Canes fan said he was basically a younger better version of Hainsey and went on a junior high school level profanity-riddled diatribe after a well-thought out level-headed post from same Canes fan.

So, I don't know, physician heal thyself?

 

[Chrispy]

So the only target I believe could be realistic + sensible for Toronto remainst TVR who could probably be had for the kind of assets Toronto is willing to pay. Not impossible but I believe Carolina is rather trying to move Faulk.. or possibly Hamilton.

I think it's likely both Faulk and TVR are moved before October. Carolina wants to push to sign Fox after the season, and McKeown is still around as an insurance policy in case Fox isn't ready. Or McKeown can be the 7th defenseman next season since he's no longer waiver exempt. McKeown could even come up this year down the stretch on the bottom pairing to test that theory.

So I don't think there's an issue with moving Faulk (Hamilton only if someone is willing to trade a top-tier forward for Hamilton) and TVR in separate deals.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

This exact trade was proposed only a page back. It was a terrible idea /proposal then, and certainly hasn't aged well. It was ridiculed as this one rightfully will be ( and has been) as well .

That looks pretty good for Toronto based on needing defense.

 

[Burnie97]

You just got done saying Canes fans value Pesce like he's Scott Stevens right after a Canes fan said he was basically a younger better version of Hainsey and went on a junior high school level profanity-riddled diatribe after a well-thought out level-headed post from same Canes fan.

So, I don't know, physician heal thyself?

So a better younger version of Hainsey with some throw ins... is worth Nylander, and Kadri... right.

Yes a bad word these days makes people junior high school level(note the sarcasm). I bet you have never swore in your life. Very righteous of you. Thank you for your insightful post.

The guy was also very condescending which I wasn't with my very first post. If someone wants to be like that... yes you're right... I am not okay with it.

If you don't like how I defend myself, or agree with it, then put me on your block list. Quite alright with me.