McDavid already has more 5 point games than Crosby

[DickSmehlik]

Crosby getting a lot of credit in this thread for being drafted by a better organization, and having better teammates.

 

[MoistDadBod]

What skills? Edgework? Backhand? Passing? Shot? Board work? Hand-eye? I get that Crosby’s peak was 10 years ago now but sheesh.




That would make him an outlier. Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin all hit their peaks 22-25.

Yeah, there's no room for opinion when it comes to this, the math has been done for a long time now. NHL prime (offensive production) is much earlier than most people think. This is why elite C's get better defensively as they age. Their experience and knowledge grow while their literal physiological ability to perform at the highest level declines. They compensate for degenerating fast twitch response, endurance, strength, speed and rapid neurological processing with positioning, craft, awareness, experience, smarter training and rest.

 

[tom_servo]

As a Pens/Crosby guy I'm just in awe of McDavid. I find it easy to credit McD without taking anything from Sid.

 

[Turin]

No he wasn't.



Being so injury prone and missing so much hockey is an argument against Sid, not for him. Sorry, but you don't get any credit for things you didn't do.

1. Yes, he was. His 2010-2013 physical peak has yet to be matched in terms of offensive impact this era.

2. I was making sure to shut down any idea that awards have anything to do with the criteria of being better offensively. It neither adds or detracts from Crosby’s impact.

 

[MoistDadBod]

1. Yes, he was. His 2010-2013 physical peak has yet to be matched in terms of offensive impact this era.

What metric are you using to measure that because it sounds an awful lot like opinion.

And if you're just going to say "Points per game" while cherry picking 3 seasons where he played a total of 99 games combined I'm just going to throw this season in your face for McDavid. Both are equally relevant.

 

[Turin]

What metric are you using to measure that because it sounds an awful lot like opinion.

And if you're just going to say "Points per game" while cherry picking 3 seasons where he played a total of 99 games combined I'm just going to throw this season in your face for McDavid. Both are equally relevant.

Canada is a joke division and this season isn’t real, but yea no, I don’t mean points per game. I mean pure offense analytically. It’s easy to think creating offense through dangling and coast to coast rushes means more offense than winning puck battles out of the corner to create chances in the slot, but it doesn’t.

Here are some graphs. One shows Crosby’s impact up until 2012 (not his full prime) that no player, even McDavid, have matched in this post lockout era. The other shows Crosby’s ability to generate chances through passing.

 

[kladorf2005]

How do you define offense? Because Crosby was superior at generating offense in his prime. Awards? Crosby missed out on scoring titles due to injury in 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2015.

The gap between him and his peers. The only time Crosby ever largely separated himself from his peers was 2011-12. But he missed soooo many games during that time period.

McDavid has been growing the gap between himself and his peers for 4+ years now. He finished 1st or 2nd in points in each of the past 4 years. And all signs to point to another top 2 finish this year (likely 1st). That's not too dissimilar from Crosby's stretch of finishing 1st in PPG for 5 straight seasons. I'm not one for the stupid "pace" argument, but all else equal, I value actual points more than points pace. Again, emphasis on "all else equal".

Otherwise, I agree with you. If David Steckel's dad had wrapped it up back in the early 80s, we might not be as impressed with what McDavid is doing now. Crosby was on a different planet at the turn of the last decade.

 

[daver]

No he wasn't.

Crosby has the most dominant Art Ross win in the last 28 years which includes three of Mario's Art Ross wins and all of Jagr's.

 

[daver]

The gap between him and his peers. The only time Crosby ever largely separated himself from his peers was 2011-12. But he missed soooo many games during that time period.

McDavid has been growing the gap between himself and his peers for 4+ years now. He finished 1st or 2nd in points in each of the past 4 years. And all signs to point to another top 2 finish this year (likely 1st). That's not too dissimilar from Crosby's stretch of finishing 1st in PPG for 5 straight seasons. I'm not one for the stupid "pace" argument, but all else equal, I value actual points more than points pace. Again, emphasis on "all else equal".

Otherwise, I agree with you. If David Steckel's dad had wrapped it up back in the early 80s, we might not be as impressed with what McDavid is doing now. Crosby was on a different planet at the turn of the last decade.

McDavid's first five years are similar to Crosby's first five years. McDavid has not shown the dominance (yet) that Crosby showed from 2010 to 2013.

 

[Frosty415]

As a Pens/Crosby guy I'm just in awe of McDavid. I find it easy to credit McD without taking anything from Sid.

It’s how it should be.

bunch of bruised egos in this thread

 

[sufferer]

Crosby is better tailored for tight checking games which is all you're going to see when the games start to matter. Like many have said, he's a grinder with HHOF skill and creates in hardest areas of the ice. That to me is why I consider him a superior player despite McDavid's ridiculous speed/hands combo.

 

[InfinityIggy]

And Sam Gagner has more 8 point nights than anyone playing.

Not sure its all that useful a point of comparison between Crosby and McDavid when their play styles are very, very different. Even if both are known as generational point-getters.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Crosby has the most dominant Art Ross win in the last 28 years which includes three of Mario's Art Ross wins and all of Jagr's.

small sample size alert

 

[Arpeggio]

What an absolutely random, borderline pointless stat.

Does he have as many 8-point games as Sam Gagne? No? Well surely there's something to be drawn about their comparative quality as players.

*Gagner

 

[GOilers88]

What skills? Edgework? Backhand? Passing? Shot? Board work? Hand-eye? I get that Crosby’s peak was 10 years ago now but sheesh.




That would make him an outlier. Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin all hit their peaks 22-25.

I feel like peak equates to point production.
That's where I disagree.

 

[Turin]

The gap between him and his peers. The only time Crosby ever largely separated himself from his peers was 2011-12. But he missed soooo many games during that time period.

McDavid has been growing the gap between himself and his peers for 4+ years now. He finished 1st or 2nd in points in each of the past 4 years. And all signs to point to another top 2 finish this year (likely 1st). That's not too dissimilar from Crosby's stretch of finishing 1st in PPG for 5 straight seasons. I'm not one for the stupid "pace" argument, but all else equal, I value actual points more than points pace. Again, emphasis on "all else equal".

Otherwise, I agree with you. If David Steckel's dad had wrapped it up back in the early 80s, we might not be as impressed with what McDavid is doing now. Crosby was on a different planet at the turn of the last decade.

The gap offensively between Crosby and his peers from 2010 to 2014 was huge. And before that he was competing against peak Ovechkin and Malkin. McDavid doesnt have that separation yet but if he does it’s probably this year and next. Too bad the schedule makes everything so wonky.

 

[Fig]

Didn't CMD and Crosby attained the 501 point mark at approximately the same amount of games played?

If that's the case and CMD has more 5+ point games, doesn't that literally just mean that Crosby is more consistent? (ie: The more 5+ point games CMD has in that span, the more lower point games he has as well).

Both are fantastic players, but this type of data analysis is a heck of a double edged sword if based on the entire pool of data.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I'm not here to compare Sid to McDavid. Both are special.

As a hockey fan, I think it's a crime that McDavid has to waste away in Edmonton. If there was ever a reason to rig the draft....

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

both saw career numbers playing alongside Mcdavid

Sure, but being on the ice while McDavid is being McDavid isn't necessarily elevating their games. These guys are currently playing on the 3rd and 4th lines. Kunitz was a staple along Sid. The comparisons don't match.

 

[McRpro]

Didn't CMD and Crosby attained the 501 point mark at approximately the same amount of games played?

If that's the case and CMD has more 5+ point games, doesn't that literally just mean that Crosby is more consistent? (ie: The more 5+ point games CMD has in that span, the more lower point games he has as well).

Both are fantastic players, but this type of data analysis is a heck of a double edged sword if based on the entire pool of data.

Nope. A quick look through this thread and you'll find the answer.

 

[McRpro]

I'm not here to compare Sid to McDavid. Both are special.

As a hockey fan, I think it's a crime that McDavid has to waste away in Edmonton. If there was ever a reason to rig the draft....

I wonder if people were thinking the same about Mario in Pittsburgh 5 years into his career.

 

[Dust]

Steve Yzerman also put up a ton of points in his younger years. Then he learned about this thing called defense that helps win championships.

Or maybe, Detroit finally assembled a good team to surround him. Even superstar players need quality teammates, this isn't the NBA where one player can carry a team to the finals on his back.

Stevey Y was drafted in 83, the Red Wings weren't a consistently good team until 91-92.

 

[Fig]

Nope. A quick look through this thread and you'll find the answer.

Ah, I see it now on the last few pages.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I get that most HFboard members are from the East, and don't follow the West at all...
(Even if we're literally in the same division as you).


But everytime I see a thread about McDavid, I invariably see MANY posters harping on about what a garbage team the Oilers are.
But since Tippett and Holland took over, the Oilers have been decent.

Say what you want about the North Division, but they're currently sitting 2nd.
And I see a LOT of Leafs and Habs fans talking the piss out on how Edmonton is a garbage team and McDavid needs to get out of there....

Last year they were 2nd in the Pacific. (Ahead of Dallas in the Conference)

Should also note that last season, Edmonton finished higher than Toronto in the Standings.


I just find it a really strange thing to read everytime anyone brings up McDavid, because it hasn't been true for a while.

Sure they don't exactly look like a cup contender. But how many teams do?

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I wonder if people were thinking the same about Mario in Pittsburgh 5 years into his career.

Pittsburgh was a 17 year old franchise when Mario arrived with zero hockey history. Pittsburgh is also almost twice as big as Edmonton in terms of population.

Edmonton has nothing to offer mcdavid and Draisaitl as a supporting cast. And these 2 superstars play in a tiny media market so they get little exposure in America. Let's be honest, most Americans have never heard of Edmonton.

I'm not trying to shit on the city. I'm trying to say that this generational talent is being wasted on a franchise that will severely limit his success and exposure.