Matthews vs Scheifele

[tacogeoff]

Chef's full time winger has 36 points, 2 more than Chef. Matthews' full time winger has 14 points, 12 points less than Auston.

Scheifele is a fine player and probably bordering on top 20 player in the league. Matthews is top
10.

Disagree. if you look at what he did last season (7th in scoring) and what he is doing this season (currently in 6th or tied for 3rd...however you look at it) he in my mind is ranked higher than Matthews currently. Matthews will surpass him at some point but not right now.

 

[Regal]

Okay, then lets just look at Matthews numbers since he entered the league then, and compare them against every NHL forward who has played more than 1000 minutes in that time frame.

He's 1st in 5v5 goals
He's 4th in 5V5 Primary points (Behind McDavid, Kane and Kucherov)
He's 10th in total points at 5v5 (Behind McDavid, Kane, Scheifele, Kucherov, Tarasenko, Zetterberg, Panarin, Marchand and Crosby)
He's 3rd in xGF at 5v5 (behind Crosby and McDavid)
He's 1st in ixGF at 5v5
He's 4th in all situations goals (behind Ovechkin, Crosby and Kucherov)
He's 7th in all situations primary points (Behind Kucherov, Crosby, McDavid, Kane, Wheeler and Scheifele)
He's 15th in all situations total points
He's 5th in primary points per 60 in all situations (Behind Crosby, Guentzel, Malkin and Kucherov)
He's 6th in primary points per 60 at 5v5 (behind Malkin, McDavid, Kucherov, Marchand and Anders Lee)

He does this while being a good possession player (above 50% in raw possession stats and being a positive guy relative to his team). Also, a bunch of those guys play with better linemates than Matthews. Schiefele always has one of Wheeler or Laine on his wing, while Matthews has Hyman permanently attached. Kucherov has played all this season with Stamkos (although he has looked great with lesser partners). Tarasenko is probably the only guy mentioned who consistently played with a player worse than Matthews at 5v5 (Lehtera). He's carried lines with fellow 1st and 2nd-year players since day one, never getting extended time with any veterans outside of the powerplay.

Thank you. I actually like Matthews a little more here, I just don't understand the obsession with using age and development seasons as an argument for him over established older players

 

[BayStreetBully]

Thank you. I actually like Matthews a little more here, I just don't understand the obsession with using age and development seasons as an argument for him over established older players

Because in the case of Matthews and Scheifele, it seems like a matter of inevitability. It would be foolish not to take context into account in discussing the open-ended question of “who is better”.

 

[sparxx87]

Love the shameless Flames and Oiler fans.

 

[Ainec]

according to some leafs fans I'm a matthews hater but I think he's better

now I'm a scheifele hater

 

[93LEAFS]

Thank you. I actually like Matthews a little more here, I just don't understand the obsession with using age and development seasons as an argument for him over established older players

The thing is, the main things that contribute to what people point to, to put Scheifele ahead of Matthews (either ppg or total points) is almost entirely fueled by the difference in secondary assists, which tend to have erratic repeatability rates. On top of that, Scheifele has a crazy high oiSH% over that time frame, which for Scheifele appears to be somewhat repeatable (one of maybe 5 guys to hold over 10% over 200 games along with Stamkos, Crosby, Kucherov, and Palat off the top of my head), while Matthews had a relatively low-one. I don't doubt Schiefele will continue to get more secondary assists (especially if Matthews sticks with Hyman), but the divide in that rate I wouldn't expect to hold up. Especially when Matthews oiSH% was on the lower end for his first 82 games for an elite center. So, more than age and development gaps, I would expect some regression to the mean on these stats on both sides will lessen that divide combined with Matthews slowly lessening the gap in ice-time given. Matthews is already the better primary point producer at 5v5, an equal one in all situations by rate metrics (.02 is the gap in their P1/60 in all situations) and the better possession player.

I don't fault people for taking Scheifele, but when people just point to point per game or total points (not saying you are, because you aren't), its pretty comical when you look at what that difference is fueled by.

 

[rubikscube]

Easily Scheifele right now but give it 3 years and it'll probably be easily Matthews.

 

[Regal]

Because in the case of Matthews and Scheifele, it seems like a matter of inevitability. It would be foolish not to take context into account in discussing the open-ended question of “who is better”.

Definitely disagree with that. I don't see how it can be seen as an inevitability when talking about players already among the best. Development isn't always linear and Scheifele has taken huge jumps every year.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Definitely disagree with that. I don't see how it can be seen as an inevitability when talking about players already among the best. Development isn't always linear and Scheifele has taken huge jumps every year.

By the same token, while they are currently around the same level, I’d say Scheifele is the more likely of the two to not continue at the level they are both currently at.

You are correct that development is not linear, and history has proven time and time again that superstars who are seemingly on top of the world only remain there for 2 or 3 years before crashing back down to earth.

Scheifele sure took a while to get to this level. He didn’t have any pre-draft hype as a phenom. He didn’t take the league by storm immediately. We know what he looks like when he is an ordinary NHLer. For all we know, all the stars aligned for him for 2 years which allowed him to play over his head.

As far as inevitability, Matthews shooting past Scheifele is about as safe as it gets, considering Matthews is already better, and has none of those concerns raised about Scheifele above.

 

[PucksOnNet]

Definitely disagree with that. I don't see how it can be seen as an inevitability when talking about players already among the best. Development isn't always linear and Scheifele has taken huge jumps every year.

Holy shit, I love this mantra, I swear some HFboards users have this tattooed on their f***ing foreheads. It's the last bastion for someone who's all but admitted defeat.

"Player X comes from a much higher pedigree and has outperformed Player Y at every single level and his current play is indicative that this will be continue to be the case..but uhh..you know..shit happens right..?"

 

[nobody]

Disagree. if you look at what he did last season (7th in scoring) and what he is doing this season (currently in 6th or tied for 3rd...however you look at it) he in my mind is ranked higher than Matthews currently. Matthews will surpass him at some point but not right now.

You are entitled to your opinion! In my eyes they are both great player but Matthews is already doing atleast as much for himself and the team with much less. Both Chef and Wheeler are on a tear so far this year and pointswise they're doing great but just because you have more points doesn't make you a better player.

By that logic everyone would agree that Stamkos, Kucherov, Gaudreau, Wheeler and Chef are all better players than Gaudreau and Crosby. Which obviously is just not true.

If we were to reverse roles of Chef and Auston and switch teams, Auston would be doing better than he is right now but I don't think Chef is anywhere near his current production as a Leaf. Specially if they were to attach Hyman to his hip.

 

[ChiHawk21]

scheifele isnt that good. take matthews 10 out of 10 times now and future

 

[tacogeoff]

You are entitled to your opinion! In my eyes they are both great player but Matthews is already doing atleast as much for himself and the team with much less. Both Chef and Wheeler are on a tear so far this year and pointswise they're doing great but just because you have more points doesn't make you a better player.

By that logic everyone would agree that Stamkos, Kucherov, Gaudreau, Wheeler and Chef are all better players than Gaudreau and Crosby. Which obviously is just not true.

If we were to reverse roles of Chef and Auston and switch teams, Auston would be doing better than he is right now but I don't think Chef is anywhere near his current production as a Leaf. Specially if they were to attach Hyman to his hip.

wild hypotheticals that can never be verified aside.....

Point production is key for the Jets and it does factor into whom you would consider the better player atm.. as it is the key reason they are near the top of the standings. Mark makes everyone around him better just like Crosby does. Put Laine back with Mark and we would see his goal scoring improve greatly.

who is better right now at this point of the season is what the OP is asking from my understandign. Mark is the better player. Matthews will be better at some point and maybe even later in the season but not right now.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

He's outscoring him by 8 points. This season it's not close.

Ya because an 8 point lead with more than half the season to go is insurmountable lol

 

[MidWestJet]

Wtf is wrong with people in here, two very good players and close in skill rn,yet some people in here are freaking out cause people won't submit and claim Mhews is the greatest thing since sliced bread

 

[The List Of Jericho]

Yes, the person with the stats to back up their argument is the delusional one.

Brayden Schenn and Josh Bailey have more points than Sidney Cosby, are they both better than him? Haha

 

[Narow]

That's just a primitive way of looking at it though.

Look at their ice time differences for starters.

Matthews is number 1 in the entire league in high danger scoring chances generated, despite missing 4 games. Do you know who number 2 is? Zach Hyman, that's how unbelievable Matthews has been this year.

Matthews is playing like a generational talent this year, and he's been fantastic defensively. The guy has a crazy +42 high danger scoring chances for/against as well. This is all 5 on 5.

Seems high danger stat is a line stat.... or do you really believe hyman is second best in the league at creating them??

 

[sparxx87]

Seems high danger stat is a line stat.... or do you really believe hyman is second best in the league at creating them??

No. Matthews creates for him, Hyman can’t finish. Nylander hasn’t finished much either 1 5v5 goal all season. You can’t get assists when the people around you aren’t finishing.

Matthews creates far more offense than what he’s given credit for in the box scores. With a 25 goal scorer on his wing, he’d easily have a few more assists.

 

[WillTheThrill]

When you take into account ice time and line mates, its Matthews. The gap grow larger as the years go on too. Scheifele is a hell of a player though. Top 10 C in league for sure.

 

[Narow]

No. Matthews creates for him, Hyman can’t finish. Nylander hasn’t finished much either 1 5v5 goal all season. You can’t get assists when the people around you aren’t finishing.

Matthews creates far more offense than what he’s given credit for in the box scores. With a 25 goal scorer on his wing, he’d easily have a few more assists.

So it is a linestat..... we dont know individually who created what just that most of them have been due to matthews as he has a few more away from hyman..

Answered my quesion...

 

[Dustin]

Seems high danger stat is a line stat.... or do you really believe hyman is second best in the league at creating them??

I think so too but isn't the argument that Matthews has basically carried his line to have the #1 and #2 guy in the NHL on it?

I'm sure no one is suggesting that Hyman propels that line and Matthews to such a degree.

 

[WillTheThrill]

I don't care about ES minutes cause I'm not going to fault someone for being productive on the Powerplay.

And I will agree that I was wrong for saying ANIEC, I didn't realize Scheifele plays 21:00 a game vs. Matthews who is at 18:27 (which is quite low mind you).

Still not even close to generational production like Leaf Fans claim.




We're not talking about potential. Leaf fans act like Matthews is already one of the best players in the game. He's not. He's simply not in anyway one of the best players TODAY.

Most even-strength goals out of anyone since entering NHL. He is definitely a top 10 player in the NHL TODAY.

 

[sparxx87]

I think so too but isn't the argument that Matthews has basically carried his line to have the #1 and #2 guy in the NHL on it?

I'm sure no one is suggesting that Hyman propels that line and Matthews to such a degree.

Definitely. It’s pretty clear to see Hyman isn’t generating the offense. Matthews creates a lot of opportunities for Hyman in close, and Hyman is proficient at fumbling the puck, hitting the goalie, or missing the net.

It’s a line stat, for a line quite clearly carried offensively by Auston Matthews. Recently in particular, which started Babcock’s shuffling.

 

[WillTheThrill]

Scheifele has been on the ice for 130 more minutes than Auston Matthews this season. More than 2 hours.
Corsica | Skater Stats

 

[Dustin]

Definitely. It’s pretty clear to see Hyman isn’t generating the offense. Matthews creates a lot of opportunities for Hyman in close, and Hyman is proficient at fumbling the puck, hitting the goalie, or missing the net.

It’s a line stat, for a line quite clearly carried offensively by Auston Matthews. Recently in particular, which started Babcock’s shuffling.

Hyman is a good pro. He goes to the net and tries to bang in whatever he can. Fortunately for him he's got 2 players that are really good at getting the puck on the net most nights.

I just find it funny that people are calling out Leafs fans when it's obviously quite close. Not only that but the disparity in age seems to bother everyone else in other polls but not this one of course.

As I said before there's not a GM in the league that takes Chef over Matthews when you take all things considered. This poll has turned into a points only contest and if so why have a poll? You can review who the best players are on NHL.com at anytime apparently.

Also I guess using this same metric Kadri is better than Laine. I'm sure most of the supporters for Chef over Matthews would agree with that to right?