Matthews vs. Barkov

Who is better?


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Zybalto

Registered User
Dec 28, 2012
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Career goals/60 all active players (min 200 games played):

1. Matthews: 1.85
2. Ovi: 1.755
3. Stamkos: 1.621

5v5 career goals/60 all active players (min 200 games played):

1. Matthews: 1.633
2. Ovi: 1.441
3. Stamkos: 1.275
3. Kucherov: 1.275

Matthews 5v5 goal scoring/60 rate is better than all other players all situations rates except Ovi.
 
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pcruz

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Mar 7, 2013
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Some people call excuses by another name: "context". Matthews is a phenomenal goal scorer playing with elite linemates but we don't need to reach for some misleading comparisons to exaggerate that. Take out Ottawa (who is allowing the 2nd most GA/GP in the 21st century) and Matthews is pacing for 98.

Barkov is pacing for....98. With guys the Leafs didn't even want on their AHL team in Carter Verhaeghe and Mason Marchment on the wings. Playing elite defense.

It's ok to acknowledge context.


Ottawa is allowing the 2nd most GA/GP in the last 20 seasons. Detroit is allowing the 2nd most in their own 8 team division in 2021. I think your math is off.

You are conveniently, almost deliberately, downplaying the level of teammates that Barkov has.

I believe there is a guy on that team with the same amount of points, who has equaled Barkov's performance for the last few years.
Hornquist is a consistent 50 point guy.
Duclair was once a highly touted prospect who scored 40 points in 66 games last year.....................for Ottawa.
As for Verhaeghe. We just don't know him at all. It's his second NHL season. Some players are very late bloomers, some are just not given an opportunity (Duclair).


It's also noteworthy that Barkov's production is heavily influenced by his power play. For the big seasons of his career, Barkov has scored roughly 30% of his points on the power play.
This year alone, Matthews has as many even strength points as Barkov has total points.

Since Matthews has entered the league, their stat lines (overall) are kind of similar.

Both with around 320 games played. Both with around 330 points.
Matthews with significantly more goals (69 more), a few more points, a few less games, a few less power play points, 2 full minutes of ice time per game less.
Matthews also is +56 in that time period while Barkov is an impressive +33 on that team.



However, these numbers include Matthews' rookie seasons and every one since, whereas, Barkov's first 3 seasons (his formative years) are negated.
That is, we're comparing the start of one's career with the beginning of the prime of the other, and not only are they similar, the former is already surpassing the latter.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that Barkov has anywhere as much room to improve as Matthews does (seeing that he has 3 full seasons of development more), and comparing year to year, Matthews is improving at a significant rate - all around.

Again, this is not to say that one is bad and the other is good. It's just to say that one is fantastic and the other is phenomenal.

If the Leafs had Barkov, every single Leaf fan would swoon over him.
They would pine more for McDavid than they currently do now, however.
 
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FlaPanthers11

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You are conveniently, almost deliberately, downplaying the level of teammates that Barkov has.

I believe there is a guy on that team with the same amount of points, who has equaled Barkov's performance for the last few years.
Hornquist is a consistent 50 point guy.
Duclair was once a highly touted prospect who scored 40 points in 66 games last year.....................for Ottawa.
As for Verhaeghe. We just don't know him at all. It's his second NHL season. Some players are very late bloomers, some are just not given an opportunity (Duclair).
The teammates that matter are the ones that he's playing with. Hornqvist and Huberdeau are power play only teammates and PP is not driving Barkov's numbers nor where he makes his greatest impact (see below).

Barkov's line this season is the best 5 on 5 line in the NHL. Barkov trails only Valeri Nichushkin in xGF% at 5v5 this season. Verhaeghe is 5th (among Fs), Duclair is 9th, Matthews is 14th, Marchment is 36th. The Leafs 2nd line combo of Tavares-Nylander rank 46th and 27th. The best Panther forward that hasn't touched Barkov's line is 123rd and it's rookie Owen Tippett. Huberdeau ranks 264th - he is nowhere near as good as his point totals may make him seem and struggles to score/drive play away from Barkov.

Since we are trying to isolate the impact of Barkov and Matthews here, you absolutely have to consider linemates when comparing their stats. Matthews without a doubt has significantly better linemates so his numbers compared to Barkov's should be discounted. By how much? You can make that call but I would say the gap between Marner and anyone Barkov is playing with is massive. Marner is a star.


It's also noteworthy that Barkov's production is heavily influenced by his power play. For the big seasons of his career, Barkov has scored roughly 30% of his points on the power play.
This year alone, Matthews has as many even strength points as Barkov has total points.
The last line is just a way of saying the Leafs haven't had a great PP. Barkov only has 2 more PP points than Matthews this year. Barkov is 16th in event strength points and 37th in PP points. As mentioned above and shown here, 5v5 is where Barkov shines.

Since Matthews has entered the league, their stat lines (overall) are kind of similar.

Both with around 320 games played. Both with around 330 points.
Matthews with significantly more goals (69 more), a few more points, a few less games, a few less power play points, 2 full minutes of ice time per game less.
Matthews also is +56 in that time period while Barkov is an impressive +33 on that team.
The ice time difference is largely accounted for by PK time. In fact this season, Matthews is being deployed in much more favorable scoring situations. Matthews averages over 2 and a half minutes more 5v5 time per game than Barkov. This helps explain a portion of the gap in total points. Matthews still holds the edge in P/60 at 5v5 but only 3.07 (3rd) to 2.78 (11th).

As you say, the stats are very close with Matthews having a slight edge. This is where people voting Barkov here would say that you need to apply some adjustment for quality of teammate/opposition which surely favors Matthews in both cases. Considering Barkov is better defensively as well, we believe this pushes him over the edge.


However, these numbers include Matthews' rookie seasons and every one since, whereas, Barkov's first 3 seasons (his formative years) are negated.
That is, we're comparing the start of one's career with the beginning of the prime of the other, and not only are they similar, the former is already surpassing the latter.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that Barkov has anywhere as much room to improve as Matthews does (seeing that he has 3 full seasons of development more), and comparing year to year, Matthews is improving at a significant rate - all around.

Again, this is not to say that one is bad and the other is good. It's just to say that one is fantastic and the other is phenomenal.

If the Leafs had Barkov, every single Leaf fan would swoon over him.
They would pine more for McDavid than they currently do now, however.
I actually posted a couple of links on aging curves here on page 2 of the thread though obviosuly they've gotten lost so posting below again for reference.

https://hockeyviz.com/static/pdf/ritsac19.pdf
A New Look at Aging Curves for NHL Skaters (part 1)

In short, research has shown that peak forward age is actually around 23-24. Obviously this can vary player by player but important to note that Matthews is this age now. If Matthews follows historical trends (he very well may not), we could expect a slight decline in the next 3 years. I don't believe the age difference holds up because we can't guarantee continued improvement from a 23 year old. Also per the curves, production at 21-23 is not noticably worse than 24-26.



TLDR: Everyone here admits the overall offensive stats are close with Matthews slightly on top. Matthews is clearly the better goal scorer (best in the league). Barkov is the clear better playmaker and currently the driver of the best line in the NHL at 5v5. To isolate the impact of these indivuals, we should adjust for quality of teammates and competition. Considering Matthews has the clear advantage there, any difference in offensive numbers is marginal at best. Since Barkov holds the defensive edge, many people consider him the better player. I think an argument for Matthews would start by suggesting that the gap between teammates is not that wide but I can't personally see that.

Appreciate the lengthy data driven reply.
 
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Peiskos

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Give me the flashy 6'3" 220lbs 23 year old franchise centre, a perennial 30, 40 and what will soon be 50 goal scorer and an 80-100 point guy for a solid decade. I know Barkov is a fantastic player but Auston is legitimately on a tier above nearly every player.

He is more than just a goal scorer, people will underestimate his defensive abilities and playmaking abilities. His career assist total (148) is fairly even with his career goal total of (189).

He's continues to become a more well rounded player with each passing game. End of the day though these are two 23 and 25 year old franchise centres, both of them are franchise altering talents and it reflects with the standings.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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TLDR: Everyone here admits the overall offensive stats are close with Matthews slightly on top. Matthews is clearly the better goal scorer (best in the league). Barkov is the clear better playmaker and currently the driver of the best line in the NHL at 5v5. To isolate the impact of these indivuals, we should adjust for quality of teammates and competition. Considering Matthews has the clear advantage there, any difference in offensive numbers is marginal at best. Since Barkov holds the defensive edge, many people consider him the better player. I think an argument for Matthews would start by suggesting that the gap between teammates is not that wide but I can't personally see that.

I always find it perplexing that fans will go to lengths to devalue their own teams to prop up variations of the "man alone" angle in a one on one debate. For me, the name of the game is great players leading great teams, surrounded by great teammates and both players have that. Proof of concept is Toronto being a first place team and Florida being a first place team before the weekend. So he argument that Matthews' offense needs to be downgraded/adjusted because has more help and Barkov has better defense? I think those are spurious claims at best.
 

FlaPanthers11

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Aug 30, 2013
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I always find it perplexing that fans will go to lengths to devalue their own teams to prop up variations of the "man alone" angle in a one on one debate. For me, the name of the game is great players leading great teams, surrounded by great teammates and both players have that. Proof of concept is Toronto being a first place team and Florida being a first place team before the weekend. So he argument that Matthews' offense needs to be downgraded/adjusted because has more help and Barkov has better defense? I think those are spurious claims at best.
I’ll admit it comes across as strange but there’s good reason for it. You’re not going to see Panthers fans going to bat for Huberdeau like they do for Barkov. In fact at this point you’ll be more likely to come across Panthers fans saying let’s trade Huberdeau before he’s a UFA because he’s going to be overpaid and let’s give Barkov a blank check. Not expecting a similar sentiment around Marner for example.

As for Verhaeghe Marchment Duclair etc, they’re all just passing through before they earn better deals after leaving Barkov’s wing a la Dadanov. There’s no real attachment to these guys.

I’d also say that it’s not devaluing our own as much as recognizing a clear difference. No one needs to devalue Verhaeghe to say he’s not Marner. You can admit this.

Also to throw in a concrete example, the Panthers have 3 goals the last 3 games. Barkov has 3 goals the last 3 games. You’d be surprised at how much of a one man show it is down here sometimes.
 
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pcruz

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Mar 7, 2013
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Vaughan
The teammates that matter are the ones that he's playing with. Hornqvist and Huberdeau are power play only teammates and PP is not driving Barkov's numbers nor where he makes his greatest impact (see below).

Barkov's line this season is the best 5 on 5 line in the NHL. Barkov trails only Valeri Nichushkin in xGF% at 5v5 this season. Verhaeghe is 5th (among Fs), Duclair is 9th, Matthews is 14th, Marchment is 36th. The Leafs 2nd line combo of Tavares-Nylander rank 46th and 27th. The best Panther forward that hasn't touched Barkov's line is 123rd and it's rookie Owen Tippett. Huberdeau ranks 264th - he is nowhere near as good as his point totals may make him seem and struggles to score/drive play away from Barkov.

Since we are trying to isolate the impact of Barkov and Matthews here, you absolutely have to consider linemates when comparing their stats. Matthews without a doubt has significantly better linemates so his numbers compared to Barkov's should be discounted. By how much? You can make that call but I would say the gap between Marner and anyone Barkov is playing with is massive. Marner is a star.



The last line is just a way of saying the Leafs haven't had a great PP. Barkov only has 2 more PP points than Matthews this year. Barkov is 16th in event strength points and 37th in PP points. As mentioned above and shown here, 5v5 is where Barkov shines.


The ice time difference is largely accounted for by PK time. In fact this season, Matthews is being deployed in much more favorable scoring situations. Matthews averages over 2 and a half minutes more 5v5 time per game than Barkov. This helps explain a portion of the gap in total points. Matthews still holds the edge in P/60 at 5v5 but only 3.07 (3rd) to 2.78 (11th).

As you say, the stats are very close with Matthews having a slight edge. This is where people voting Barkov here would say that you need to apply some adjustment for quality of teammate/opposition which surely favors Matthews in both cases. Considering Barkov is better defensively as well, we believe this pushes him over the edge.



I actually posted a couple of links on aging curves here on page 2 of the thread though obviosuly they've gotten lost so posting below again for reference.

https://hockeyviz.com/static/pdf/ritsac19.pdf
A New Look at Aging Curves for NHL Skaters (part 1)

In short, research has shown that peak forward age is actually around 23-24. Obviously this can vary player by player but important to note that Matthews is this age now. If Matthews follows historical trends (he very well may not), we could expect a slight decline in the next 3 years. I don't believe the age difference holds up because we can't guarantee continued improvement from a 23 year old. Also per the curves, production at 21-23 is not noticably worse than 24-26.



TLDR: Everyone here admits the overall offensive stats are close with Matthews slightly on top. Matthews is clearly the better goal scorer (best in the league). Barkov is the clear better playmaker and currently the driver of the best line in the NHL at 5v5. To isolate the impact of these indivuals, we should adjust for quality of teammates and competition. Considering Matthews has the clear advantage there, any difference in offensive numbers is marginal at best. Since Barkov holds the defensive edge, many people consider him the better player. I think an argument for Matthews would start by suggesting that the gap between teammates is not that wide but I can't personally see that.

Appreciate the lengthy data driven reply.


So, a few counter arguments:

It's true that Matthews is entering the period of time that is normally considered to be the most offensively productive of the average player's career.
However, since many players don't have lengthy careers and are out of the league within a few seasons, those stats are not as reflective or relevant to the very top players - see the longevity of top end performers like Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, etc. There might be some drop off, but their careers don't resemble peaks, more like gentle hills with low slopes on the tail end.
I believe that Matthews is one of the very best offensive players in the league, has not hit his peak in any way, and will be just as graceful in the later stages of his career as someone like Ovechkin.

Whereas Matthews is just starting to enter it, Barkov is now exiting that peak point, as you point out.

I also believe that Barkov will not have a sharp decline in offensive production, although I do think he's at the absolute peak of his offensive production.

See, the difference here, even if we consider these 2 players to have similarly slow drop offs in their careers, is that while Matthews is just starting to get to that sweet spot, Barkov has already been there for the last couple of years and is about to leave it.
For players with remarkably similar offensive production thus far, this gap will only widen significantly in the next 3 years or so.

Again, this is just following the logic provided by that study, which I don't put as much stock into for this caliber player to be honest.

I don't believe that the difference in defensive metrics makes up for what will undoubtedly be a significant offensive difference coming in the imminent future. We see more than signs of this gap widening already, and when one player's career is still on the upswing, and the other is at plateau or starting the slow decline from it, the gap will only continue to grow.
The honest truth is that since the start of last season, Barkov is sitting at 1.03 ppg, Matthews is at 1.22 ppg.

As for the teammate argument.
It's no surprise that Marner and Hyman/Thornton are better linemates.
Don't forget though, the already superior offensive production by Matthews includes 2 full seasons of rookies as his linemates nearly 100% of the time.
He entered the league with 9 total rookies on his team, a team dead last the previous season.
During the first 3 seasons in Toronto, Matthews' linemates were - Zach Hyman, William Nylander, Andreas Johnsson, Kasperi Kapanen, Connor Brown.
He made Kapanen into a 20 goal scorer, did the same for Johnsson.
Hyman and Brown are not exactly stars, although Hyman has steadily improved over the years.
Nylander has been great, good, ok, decent, bad, brutal over his career. He has been exactly what he was projected as, and also spent some time in the 3rd and 4th lines.
It was not until this past year that Matthews played with Marner full time. He has barely over a full season with Marner now, and he's scoring at a pace of 60 goals and over 100 points per year since.

It is true that as a whole, Matthews has had better linemates, but it's completely unfair to point at Marner and say "see, that's who has been helping Matthews this whole time, that's the real difference between his production and that of Barkov". Truth is that since Matthews and Marner started playing together 5 on 5 (the first game after Keefe took over from Babcock), he's been one of the 3 best offensive players in the league, and has blown everyone out of the water in terms of goalscoring (by some margin).


I guess, the question really is, what is better:

The established elite defensive player who is also very good offensively, but at an age where offense generally starts to slow down.

or

The established elite offensive player who is also very good defensively, at an age where his offensive numbers will continue to climb for a few years, but whose defense will also continue to improve.


And to me, that is plain.
 
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Sasso09

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Offensively it's close. Matthews scores more goals, Barkov makes his linemates better.

Defensively Barkov is better, so I vote Barkov.
Offensively it's really not close.

This poll is a clear example of anti Leafs bias on here. Matthews is significantly better than Barkov.
 
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Sasso09

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:laugh:

So many of these polls over the years.

I'll take the elite two way center who happens to be the best goal scoring center of the generation over the elite 2 way center on the other side though.

It's a no brainer.

Literally the all time goals/gp for a center list in NHL history right now:

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Matthews

Not underrating Barkov in any way here either as he's an elite center but Matthews goal scoring production is just insane for a center and he's just into his prime.
Matthews is the better player but cut the shit, in no way is he an elite 2-way center. Barkov isn't even that despite the media hype on his overrated defense.
 

Namikaze Minato

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Offensively it's really not close.

This poll is a clear example of anti Leafs bias on here. Matthews is significantly better than Barkov.

Matthews is the better player but cut the shit, in no way is he an elite 2-way center. Barkov isn't even that despite the media hype on his overrated defense.

Man what a breath of fresh air. Somebody willing to shit on both sides without bias. Thank you, Sasso, it's something rare in Leafs threads.
 

6ix

HitEmWit4LikeAustonM
Nov 26, 2014
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Lol. Matthews is only better in strictly goal scoring. He's pretty lost without his shot.

The only person lost is you. Barkov has 5 more assists than Matthews LOL... now guess how many more goals Matthews has than Barkov.
 
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Alexandrov

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They were sporting identical 5v5 GF/60 just a couple of games ago. Now with 8 points(!) in last 3gp Matthews's numbers took a giant leap but is clearly a matter of variance on the positive side (35% jump in SH% and overperformance vs xGF/60 that probably rivals anything ever seen over a full season?). There is little to no material difference in offensive production btwn the two. By the end of this season I expect to be within 5 points from each other or so (per 82 games).

Question becomes what else do they bring to the table. For Barkov the answer is obvious I'm not sure what it is for Matthews. Goal scoring? But that is already accounted for in the offensive production...
 
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Honest M

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This is ridiculous Matthews is clearly above Barkov, Barkov is good but this is not close.

Barkov now one of the most over rated players on hf.
 
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Deadly Dogma

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They were sporting identical 5v5 GF/60 just a couple of games ago. Now with 8 points(!) in last 3gp Matthews's numbers took a giant leap but is clearly a matter of variance on the positive side (35% jump in SH% and overperformance vs xGF/60 that probably rivals anything ever seen over a full season?). There is little to no material difference in offensive production btwn the two. By the end of this season I expect to be within 5 points from each other or so (per 82 games).

Question becomes what else do they bring to the table. For Barkov the answer is obvious I'm not sure what it is for Matthews. Goal scoring? But that is already accounted for in the offensive production...
Matthews 2 way game is also getting top notch, Just wait till we can play you again and you will see. I have seen it with the western Canadian club fans this season. Last yr most were low on Auston now that they have played against him a bunch this season they for the most part put him top 3 in the NHL
This is Matthews all day and I ain't mad that you don't know, you will soon enough. He has taken a HUGE leap in his game.
 

authentic

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Matthews is the better player but cut the shit, in no way is he an elite 2-way center. Barkov isn't even that despite the media hype on his overrated defense.

Haha, wow. Name your elite 2-way centers. Probably a few players who are better defensively but nowhere close offensively, when offense is 1 of the two-ways and overall the more important one anyway.
 

authentic

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Jan 28, 2015
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They were sporting identical 5v5 GF/60 just a couple of games ago. Now with 8 points(!) in last 3gp Matthews's numbers took a giant leap but is clearly a matter of variance on the positive side (35% jump in SH% and overperformance vs xGF/60 that probably rivals anything ever seen over a full season?). There is little to no material difference in offensive production btwn the two. By the end of this season I expect to be within 5 points from each other or so (per 82 games).

Question becomes what else do they bring to the table. For Barkov the answer is obvious I'm not sure what it is for Matthews. Goal scoring? But that is already accounted for in the offensive production...

Matthews is an absolutely dominant two-way center man, get your head out of the gutter. :laugh:
 
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McVespa99

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Career goals/60 all active players (min 200 games played):

1. Matthews: 1.85
2. Ovi: 1.755
3. Stamkos: 1.621

5v5 career goals/60 all active players (min 200 games played):

1. Matthews: 1.633
2. Ovi: 1.441
3. Stamkos: 1.275
3. Kucherov: 1.275

Matthews 5v5 goal scoring/60 rate is better than all other players all situations rates except Ovi.

Ovy is 35
Stamkos is 31

Lets see if Matthews GPG per 60 holds up til he is in his 30s before you get too excited.
 

pcruz

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Mar 7, 2013
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Ovy is 35
Stamkos is 31

Lets see if Matthews GPG per 60 holds up til he is in his 30s before you get too excited.

I guess it's only fair to only compare their first 5 seasons then, right? Although Matthews hasn't yet completed that 5th season:

NameGPGG / GP
Ovechkin396269.679
Stamkos373208.557
Matthews320189.590
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Zybalto

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Dec 28, 2012
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Ovy is 35
Stamkos is 31

Lets see if Matthews GPG per 60 holds up til he is in his 30s before you get too excited.

Usually goal scorers with the tools of those 3 keep it up into their 30s.

I mean, Stamkos and Ovi's g/60 the last 2 years + current are actually slightly higher than their career averages. That could be partly due to the great teams they find themselves on though too. It also kind of speaks to the quality of team argument that certainly falls in Barkov's favor in the thread poll although it's nice to see the Panthers doing so well for Barkov this year.

With Matthews still ascending up on those rates, who knows what will happen.
 

Alexandrov

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Dec 5, 2011
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Matthews 2 way game is also getting top notch, Just wait till we can play you again and you will see. I have seen it with the western Canadian club fans this season. Last yr most were low on Auston now that they have played against him a bunch this season they for the most part put him top 3 in the NHL
This is Matthews all day and I ain't mad that you don't know, you will soon enough. He has taken a HUGE leap in his game.

I could easily be sleeping on him (I’ve heard Matthews is elite defensively since his third season when it clearly was not true) the way you seem to be with Barkov. He himself had a down year last year but got his groove back this season. We are talking about a guy who will win first of his many Selkes, and second of his many ~100 point seasons. Best play driving results in the league with at best modest talent to support him. This is peak Datsyuk in 6’3 frame.
 

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