Matthews vs. Barkov

[Zybalto]

You bring up games played, when you know that players often play injured. Barkov was dealing with a lower body injury all season last year, before and after the halt, and it was evident in his play. But that doesn’t show up in your games played comparison.

This season, with both relatively healthy, it’s no contest, but since you Leafs fans can’t stand to see other players ranked ahead of yours, you have to find ways to tilt it back towards the Leafs player. Like it’s the end of the world if Matthews was the 5th best center in the game, rather than 4th.

What you are doing here is ignoring Matthews' injuries while simultaneously using Barkov's as a crutch to support his lesser stats.

You do know that Matthews played injured through two stretches of the season this year right?

First with a banged up back that obviously hindered his play when you watched him and then with a wrist injury he's been dealing with all year that got aggravated even more in a game against the Flames that hampered his shot so much he became a pass first 5v5 guy that was used to stand in front of the net and try to tip pucks on the PP for a 3 week stretch. He's just getting over than the last few games.

Matthews has also separated both of his shoulders with one of them coming in the data set provided.

I'm well aware of the issues both players have faced over the last couple of years. It's admirable how both can keep up such a high level of play both playing with injuries and in the wake of some really bad ones that cause them to miss time.

The only debate of Matthews placement among centers in the league is whether or not he's 2nd or 3rd. Do you put a premium on the insane goal scoring ability of Matthews or the Possession monster that is MacKinnon.

Barkov is an elite franchise center in this league. I just cant see a way to get him into the top 5.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

So many of these polls over the years.

I'll take the elite two way center who happens to be the best goal scoring center of the generation over the elite 2 way center on the other side though.

It's a no brainer.

Literally the all time goals/gp for a center list in NHL history right now:

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Matthews

Not underrating Barkov in any way here either as he's an elite center but Matthews goal scoring production is just insane for a center and he's just into his prime.

I’m sure we all would. But he’s not an option in this poll.

 

[AvroArrow]

1. McDavid
2. MacKinnon
3. Matthews
4. Draisaitl
~10. Barkov

Too small a sample size as a top 10 C to put Barkov higher. Strange that people at one hand call out this season for being an outlier and to be taken with a grain of salt and at the same time I’ve never seen people on these boards being so what have you done for me lately biased as this season.

Prior to this season I’d put Matthews in the 5-10 C landscape and Barkov in the 14-20

As a leafs fan I strongly disagree, Barkov is a top 5 C IMO. I have Matthews/Drai/Mackinnon/Barkov all in that next tier after McDavid with nobody clearly ahead. I take Matthews but Barkov at 10 is laughable. He's the best 2 way C in the game, elite offensively not just decent. Big body and knows how to use it and can be played in literally any situation. You need offence ? PP ? Defensive face off ? PK ? The guy is a stud.

I prefer Matthews because of his goalscoring, but Barkov at 10...hell no.

 

[Contenderorpretender]

You bring up games played, when you know that players often play injured. Barkov was dealing with a lower body injury all season last year, before and after the halt, and it was evident in his play. But that doesn’t show up in your games played comparison.

This season, with both relatively healthy, it’s no contest, but since you Leafs fans can’t stand to see other players ranked ahead of yours, you have to find ways to tilt it back towards the Leafs player. Like it’s the end of the world if Matthews was the 5th best center in the game, rather than 4th.

Well this all started because on the espn player/personnel poll. Which in fact had Matthews ranked higher. Why is it so hard to accept that NHL peers see Matthews as being better. Barkov is great too, but I'll go with people that play against them vs fan opinion any day

 

[Contenderorpretender]

You bring up games played, when you know that players often play injured. Barkov was dealing with a lower body injury all season last year, before and after the halt, and it was evident in his play. But that doesn’t show up in your games played comparison.

This season, with both relatively healthy, it’s no contest, but since you Leafs fans can’t stand to see other players ranked ahead of yours, you have to find ways to tilt it back towards the Leafs player. Like it’s the end of the world if Matthews was the 5th best center in the game, rather than 4th.

Well this all started because on the espn player/personnel poll. Which in fact had Matthews ranked higher. Why is it so hard to accept that NHL peers see Matthews as being better. Barkov is great too, but I'll go with people that play against them vs fan opinion any day

 

[Zybalto]

Updated all numbers so now full start of 2018-Current. Added some extra category for context.

The have roughly the same amount of games played over this stretch as they have had to deal with a fair number of injuries.

GP:
Matthews: 175
Barkov: 183

Offensive production (I included a split 5v5 split as I realized it was unfair as PK minutes get counted the same but also have to think raw totals still mean something):

All situations:

Goals/60:
1. Matthews: 1.90
2. Barkov: 1.09

Points/60:
1. Matthews: 3.40
2. Barkov: 3.08

5v5

Goals/60:
1. Matthews: 1.48
2. Barkov: 0.94

Points/60:
1. Matthews: 2.59
2. Barkov: 2.41


5v5 stats:

CF%
1. Matthews: 53.69
2. Barkov: 51.82
SF%:
1. Barkov: 53.07
2. Matthews: 53.00
SCF%:
1. Matthews: 56.15
2. Barkov: 51.38
HDCF%:
1. Matthews: 57.16
2. Barkov: 50.65
xGF%:
1. Matthews: 54.99
2. Barkov: 50.92
GF%:
1. Matthews: 55.49
2. Barkov: 54.85


Defensively seems to be a big focus here so I'll expand a bit and It works out well as both Florida and Toronto have almost the exact same defensive numbers (Expected Goals Against/60, shots against/60, etc.) since the start of 2018 so theres not too much team bias here.:

Defensive 5v5 stats:

Corsi Against/60:
1. Barkov: 53.46
2. Matthews: 55.35

Corsi Against/60 REL:
1. Barkov: -1.30
2. Matthews: -.47

Shots Against/60:
1. Matthews: 30.24
1. Barkov: 30.24

Shots Against/60 REL:
1. Matthews: -.64
2. Barkov: +.18

Scoring Chances Against/60:
1. Barkov: 25.66
2. Matthews: 27.47

Scoring Chances Against/60 REL:
1. Matthews: +.86
2. Barkov: +1.29

High Danger Chances Against/60:
1. Matthews: 10.10
2. Barkov: 10.87

High Danger Chances Against/60 REL:
1. Matthews: -.60
2. Barkov: +.42

xGA/60:
1. Matthews: 2.33
2. Barkov: 2.42

xGA/60 REL:
1. Matthews: +.05
2. Barkov: +.16

Takeaways/60:
1. Matthews: 3.26
2. Barkov: 3.08

Blocked Shots/60:
1. Matthews: 2.89
2. Barkov: 2.12

Cheers all.

 

[authentic]

I didn't but even with excluding those teams mentioned this is what the numbers look like.

- North W/O TML - 3.033 GA/G (121 goals over 40 games)
- East W/O WSH - 2.918 GA/G (116 goals over 40 games)
- East W/O BOS - 2.992 GA/G (119 goals over 40 games)

the difference is still negligible

Great, this ridiculous argument should finally be put to rest then.

 

[authentic]

You bring up games played, when you know that players often play injured. Barkov was dealing with a lower body injury all season last year, before and after the halt, and it was evident in his play. But that doesn’t show up in your games played comparison.

This season, with both relatively healthy, it’s no contest, but since you Leafs fans can’t stand to see other players ranked ahead of yours, you have to find ways to tilt it back towards the Leafs player. Like it’s the end of the world if Matthews was the 5th best center in the game, rather than 4th.

So injuries don't matter when it's Matthews, but they matter for Barkov?

 

[drktmplr12]

Updated all numbers so now full start of 2018-Current. Added some extra category for context.

The have roughly the same amount of games played over this stretch as they have had to deal with a fair number of injuries.

GP:
Matthews: 175
Barkov: 183

Offensive production (I included a split 5v5 split as I realized it was unfair as PK minutes get counted the same but also have to think raw totals still mean something):

All situations:

Goals/60:
1. Matthews: 1.90
2. Barkov: 1.09

Points/60:
1. Matthews: 3.40
2. Barkov: 3.08

5v5

Goals/60:
1. Matthews: 1.48
2. Barkov: 0.94

Points/60:
1. Matthews: 2.59
2. Barkov: 2.41


5v5 stats:

CF%
1. Matthews: 53.69
2. Barkov: 51.82
SF%:
1. Barkov: 53.07
2. Matthews: 53.00
SCF%:
1. Matthews: 56.15
2. Barkov: 51.38
HDCF%:
1. Matthews: 57.16
2. Barkov: 50.65
xGF%:
1. Matthews: 54.99
2. Barkov: 50.92
GF%:
1. Matthews: 55.49
2. Barkov: 54.85


Defensively seems to be a big focus here so I'll expand a bit and It works out well as both Florida and Toronto have almost the exact same defensive numbers (Expected Goals Against/60, shots against/60, etc.) since the start of 2018 so theres not too much team bias here.:

Defensive 5v5 stats:

Corsi Against/60:
1. Barkov: 53.46
2. Matthews: 55.35

Corsi Against/60 REL:
1. Barkov: -1.30
2. Matthews: -.47

Shots Against/60:
1. Matthews: 30.24
1. Barkov: 30.24

Shots Against/60 REL:
1. Matthews: -.64
2. Barkov: +.18

Scoring Chances Against/60:
1. Barkov: 25.66
2. Matthews: 27.47

Scoring Chances Against/60 REL:
1. Matthews: +.86
2. Barkov: +1.29

High Danger Chances Against/60:
1. Matthews: 10.10
2. Barkov: 10.87

High Danger Chances Against/60 REL:
1. Matthews: -.60
2. Barkov: +.42

xGA/60:
1. Matthews: 2.33
2. Barkov: 2.42

xGA/60 REL:
1. Matthews: +.05
2. Barkov: +.16

Takeaways/60:
1. Matthews: 3.26
2. Barkov: 3.08

Blocked Shots/60:
1. Matthews: 2.89
2. Barkov: 2.12

Cheers all.

your data set includes a historically bad defensive team in the 2018 panthers - pretty much the entire team were minus players. have you watched mike matheson play hockey?? its hard to understate exactly how bad he was for us. compare any player with substantial ice time with him and you will see their numbers are dragged down substantially and across the board. he was really really really bad.

2020-2021 5v5

cheers.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

your data set includes a historically bad defensive team in the 2018 panthers - pretty much the entire team were minus players. have you watched mike matheson play hockey?? its hard to understate exactly how bad he was for us. compare any player with substantial ice time with him and you will see their numbers are dragged down substantially and across the board. he was really really really bad.

View attachment 419789

2020-2021 5v5

View attachment 419785
View attachment 419786

cheers.

Thanks for pulling all of these numbers. Lot of work into that I’m sure. They mostly seem to tell the story that’s been in here. Matthews has some marginally better offensive numbers and Barkov has better defensive numbers. Given the stats we have here the relative numbers are going to be most important for the on ice metrics because as the poster above mentions, the Panthers have had some really really bad team defensive play in the selected group of seasons. Barkov has a nice lead in almost all of the REL numbers.

Takeaways and blocked shots are very unreliable stats subject to a lot of discretion of the arena’s scorer.

I think when you consider linemates (since these are largely on ice team stats) you just have to give Barkov another bump. Marner is really great and Barkov has really had to drag some AHLers along throughout his career.

 

[Zybalto]

your data set includes a historically bad defensive team in the 2018 panthers - pretty much the entire team were minus players. have you watched mike matheson play hockey?? its hard to understate exactly how bad he was for us. compare any player with substantial ice time with him and you will see their numbers are dragged down substantially and across the board. he was really really really bad.

Completely disagree.

The reason the Panthers gave up so many goals in the 2018-2019 season was not their D but their goaltending. It was a big reason why they eventually pulled up the Brinks truck to grab Bob.

The Leafs were in every way a worse defensive team during that season but got saved by it being Andersen's last decent season in the NHL.

Off topic a sec, I really like this Driedger kid flying under the radar down there. Should be getting more spotlight around the league as he's outplayed Bob IMO.

Anyways, an .892 save % on the 10th fewest shots given up during the season just isnt gonna cut it for any team. I know their xGA/60 was actually down around 21st in the league but that was still better than the Leafs brutal D that year.



I actually kind of outlined that over the almost 3 season data set I used that both teams were almost even defensively which kind of made it a wash.

I'm actually not even going to argue that Matthews is better than Barkov defensively. Only that he is really good defensively to go along with his elite scoring.....which he is...in extended sample sizes.


Oh, and just to drive everyone nuts:

One of the out of left field better D pairings in the league this year:

Ceci/Matheson:

CF% 50.64
xGF%: 58.23
GF%: 64.73

 

[drktmplr12]

Completely disagree.

The reason the Panthers gave up so many goals in the 2018-2019 season was not their D but their goaltending. It was a big reason why they eventually pulled up the Brinks truck to grab Bob.

The Leafs were in every way a worse defensive team during that season but got saved by it being Andersen's last decent season in the NHL.

Off topic a sec, I really like this Driedger kid flying under the radar down there. Should be getting more spotlight around the league as he's outplayed Bob IMO.

Anyways, an .892 save % on the 10th fewest shots given up during the season just isnt gonna cut it for any team. I know their xGA/60 was actually down around 21st in the league but that was still better than the Leafs brutal D that year.



I actually kind of outlined that over the almost 3 season data set I used that both teams were almost even defensively which kind of made it a wash.

I'm actually not even going to argue that Matthews is better than Barkov defensively. Only that he is really good defensively to go along with his elite scoring.....which he is...in extended sample sizes.


Oh, and just to drive everyone nuts:

One of the out of left field better D pairings in the league this year:

Ceci/Matheson:

CF% 50.64
xGF%: 58.23
GF%: 64.73

Completely disagree.

The reason the Panthers gave up so many goals in the 2018-2019 season was not their D but their goaltending. It was a big reason why they eventually pulled up the Brinks truck to grab Bob.

The Leafs were in every way a worse defensive team during that season but got saved by it being Andersen's last decent season in the NHL.

Off topic a sec, I really like this Driedger kid flying under the radar down there. Should be getting more spotlight around the league as he's outplayed Bob IMO.

Anyways, an .892 save % on the 10th fewest shots given up during the season just isnt gonna cut it for any team. I know their xGA/60 was actually down around 21st in the league but that was still better than the Leafs brutal D that year.



I actually kind of outlined that over the almost 3 season data set I used that both teams were almost even defensively which kind of made it a wash.

I'm actually not even going to argue that Matthews is better than Barkov defensively. Only that he is really good defensively to go along with his elite scoring.....which he is...in extended sample sizes.


Oh, and just to drive everyone nuts:

One of the out of left field better D pairings in the league this year:

Ceci/Matheson:

CF% 50.64
xGF%: 58.23
GF%: 64.73

If you believe that goaltending was the cats only issue in 2018. I can't help because you are watching too much sportsnet and listening to spitten chicklets too much.

How is the goal tender is responsible for the quantity of high danger chances the cats allowed in 2018?

Goaltending was an issue, yes, but just about every time MM touched the puck it was turned over in the DZ. Ekblad struggled defensively as well. Bougner had terrible defensive schemes. Our #2/3 was MM/KY.

MM was by far the worst defender in the league to log as many minutes as he did playing with top forwards.

 

[pb1300]

If you believe that goaltending was the cats only issue in 2018. I can't help because you are watching too much sportsnet and listening to spitten chicklets too much.

How is the goal tender is responsible for the quantity of high danger chances the cats allowed in 2018?

Goaltending was an issue, yes, but just about every time MM touched the puck it was turned over in the DZ. Ekblad struggled defensively as well. Bougner had terrible defensive schemes. Our #2/3 was MM/KY.

MM was by far the worst defender in the league to log as many minutes as he did playing with top forwards.

It doesn’t matter dude. 21 year old Gretzky would be in the league, and they’d still argue that Matthews was better. Let them be happy with the better goal scorer, we are more than happy with the better player.

 

[Jabba11]

Barkov. Love the guy. Matthews is amazing but Barkov is just so sound at hockey. Less flashy but still can be flashy AF. Barkov apparently is one of the nicest guy on the team and head on shoulders since his arrival in the NHL. Amazing player. Honestly, just like his style more than Matthews. Matthews is exciting but Barkov all around I feel can bring more to a team.

 

[Byron Bitz]

I don’t think I’ve seen any rankings that have Barkov above Matthews, really surprised to see him winning this poll. This ranking has Matthews far ahead of him. Fantasy hockey top 200 player rankings

 

[Party Kane]

I don’t think I’ve seen any rankings that have Barkov above Matthews, really surprised to see him winning this poll. This ranking has Matthews far ahead of him. Fantasy hockey top 200 player rankings

Lol yep NHL.coms fantasy hockey ratings are such a great metric to compare players

 

[Byron Bitz]

Lol yep NHL.coms fantasy hockey ratings are such a great metric to compare players

Ok I’ll wait while you find one ranking that has Barkov above Matthews. If Barkov is better I’m sure there’s at least one ranking that has him higher. Let me check The Athletic.. ahh shit they have a Matthews way higher as well

 

[Atomos2]

Lol yep NHL.coms fantasy hockey ratings are such a great metric to compare players

As oppose to the geniuses of HFboards lol

 

[Zybalto]

If you believe that goaltending was the cats only issue in 2018. I can't help because you are watching too much sportsnet and listening to spitten chicklets too much.

How is the goal tender is responsible for the quantity of high danger chances the cats allowed in 2018?

Goaltending was an issue, yes, but just about every time MM touched the puck it was turned over in the DZ. Ekblad struggled defensively as well. Bougner had terrible defensive schemes. Our #2/3 was MM/KY.

MM was by far the worst defender in the league to log as many minutes as he did playing with top forwards.

The Leafs gave up more high danger chances than the Cats that year.

Floridas problem wasnt just with not being able to save the high danger chances that year, it was that their goalies save% on medium danger chances was also bottom 5 in the league.

An overall 89.15% team save is just pitiful and the worst thing about the team that year. The only team comparable this year would be the Flyers. (who actually have remarkably similar defensive numbers to the Cats of that year)

 

[Arizonan God]

Matthews, pretty easily for me.

 

[McVespa99]

Sketchy and Phony?

Natural goal scorers of his level while also being a solid two way center are VERY rare. Why not get excited about it?

You are right in that he is going to keep climbing through his prime (he's on track to pass Gretz for G/per game in the next year) and then settle back down in his 30's but he's always going to remain a scoring threat with his tools. Just like folks have been prematurely calling for the demise of Ovi for years now, he's just too good a goal scorer. Lets be more conservative then and, barring injury (this includes all players I guess), Matthews is tracking to be an all time top 5 goal scoring center. Thats pretty good no? He's got like 60 goals in his last 82 and that was playing through two injuries and leading the league in posts hit. If he was a poor defensive player, I would give Barkov a second look here but Matthews is also a really solid defensive player as well.

For all the attention the guy gets, he sure feels underrated sometimes.

Gonna throw up some Barkov vs. Matthews stats from the last couple of years....

I dont dissagree that he has a great shot and is a great scorer. But to start looking at his GPG stats compared to the greats at this point is rediculous. His GPG will go down as he ages so its a foolish comparison. That is my only point. Leafs fans should enjoy him. He is probably the best player in the history of the team...

 

[authentic]

I dont dissagree that he has a great shot and is a great scorer. But to start looking at his GPG stats compared to the greats at this point is rediculous. His GPG will go down as he ages so its a foolish comparison. That is my only point. Leafs fans should enjoy him. He is probably the best player in the history of the team...

There are only two centers in NHL history who have been better goal scorers in their first 5 seasons though.

 

[McVespa99]

There are only two centers in NHL history who have been better goal scorers in their first 5 seasons though.

Thats awesome. Get back to me when he has been playing for 15-20 years and lets check his GPG.

 

[McVespa99]

Pretty lame argument.

I crunched up some numbers and the average GA/game for the North division (2.956 GA/game) is a negligible difference from the East division (2.929 GA/game). That equals out to 1 more goals every 40 games or so.

The narrative that the North division is far worse defensively than the other divisions really needs to die.

This is the first intelligent post I have seen from Fluff. Well done. It took you long enough

 

[authentic]

Thats awesome. Get back to me when he has been playing for 15-20 years and lets check his GPG.

I never mentioned anything about career goals per game, I'm just comparing everyone's first 5 seasons. Why would I feel the need to get back to you in 15-20 years? Lol.