Matthews vs. Barkov

[Contenderorpretender]

Alright man, Matthews is better.

Cool you finally agree not just with me. But the players and executives who were the ones who selected the rankings of top centers in the nhl in this espn poll.

 

[Connor McConnor]

I answered what you claimed.

[MOD]

[MOD]

I literally posted AM is better than Barkov a post before yet you somehow think I was referring to JT being better than Matthews?

[MOD]

1) Person A said Barkov is better defensively and brought up the fact that he is used more in defensive zone starts as an example of that
2) Person B said the reason Matthews has less defensive zone starts is because he's used more in the offensive zone since he's a sniper and Toronto has better centers for a defensive zone faceoff role

I then said Person B's logic was faulty because Florida clearly would have Barkov in every offensive zone start as possible, and it's not his fault his team actually trusts him more in a defensive zone faceoff compared to Matthews, who has other centers on his own team better in that role (literally taking the words out of a Toronto fans mouth).

You then come in with an amazing one liner: "Matthews is a lot better than JT".

[MOD]

 

[Goose]

So he’s the fourth best goal scorer over the past 25 years and that makes him one of the best ever? And if you’re doing goal per game you need to take into account that those players in their later years tailed off just like Matthews will. I’d put Brett Hull ahead of him as well and probably Stamkos.
I mean I think he’s an elite goal scorer but he’s got a long way to go before he becomes one of the all time greats imo.

I said on pace, and you can argue he's got some room for gains that will offset later year decline to some extent. Pure conjecture how much, but yes, he will see some declines the longer he plays, just like Ovie and others.

I don't care how you cut your cheese, after tonight's game he's scored 185 goals in 318 games, and his current scoring rate would put him close to Top 10 all-time both in terms of G/GP and total goals scored, assuming he plays another 12 seasons averaging .5 goals per game (he's at .582 right now), giving up 15 games per year to injury (assuming he plays 67 games per season). That puts him playing until he's 35 or 36, not 40 or something potentially unrealistic.

Who knows if he will or not, if you're placing bets it's always safer to bet against rather than for, but my point is that he has the opportunity to be a historic goal scorer, and it's not like 185 goals in 318 games is exactly a tiny sample size. Barkov doesn't look like he'll do anything close to that historic/significant in his career. Once again, I'm not saying that makes Matthews the "better" player, but it makes him a more unique and a rarer commodity. It's hard to score goals in the NHL and he clearly has a special talent that very very few do. That's not mentioning the fact that he's also a PPG+ player in his career thus far.

I get the Leafs hate, and I'm usually the last Leafs fan to "pump the tires" of Leafs players as your boy RL would say, but it's just a fact that Matthews is showing a rare, unique goal scoring skillset. Whether he keeps that up or not, who knows, but he's on pace to do something special.

 

[Contenderorpretender]

This argument is flawed. You think Florida doesn’t play Barkov in offensive zone starts? Lol. You are discrediting a player because he can do both roles compared to AM who is inferior to other centres on his team. Ooof.

Great take. I guess thats how you interpreted it. Ooffff

 

[Byron Bitz]

Lol at Barkov winning this poll

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Lol at Barkov winning this poll

Maybe Matthews isn't as good as you think he is. He's a top 10 center but not the best player after McDavid.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Maybe Matthews isn't as good as you think he is. He's a top 10 center but not the best player after McDavid.

I never said he was the best player after Mcdavid, I think Mack and Leon are slightly ahead of him but he’s closing the gap.

 

[Future]

Maybe Matthews isn't as good as you think he is. He's a top 10 center but not the best player after McDavid.

He is at least top 3 along with Mackinnon.

I’m pretty convinced people on this board don’t really watch hockey. 1st in goals, 3rd in points, and all that playing with an injured wrist for half the year and missing three games.

The Toronto Maple Leafs have a top 3 player in hockey that will likely win many Richard trophies in his career. I know it’s hard to swallow for some, but it’s best to come to terms with it now because he’s only 23 and he’s not going anywhere.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Maybe Matthews isn't as good as you think he is. He's a top 10 center but not the best player after McDavid.

I'm more interested to see if he's closed the gap on Laine in HF's eyes.

 

[Plural]

He is at least top 3 along with Mackinnon.

I’m pretty convinced people on this board don’t really watch hockey. 1st in goals, 3rd in points, and all that playing with an injured wrist for half the year and missing three games.

The Toronto Maple Leafs have a top 3 player in hockey that will likely win many Richard trophies in his career. I know it’s hard to swallow for some, but it’s best to come to terms with it now because he’s only 23 and he’s not going anywhere.

First, he's not 3rd in points. He's 5th. Secondly, Matthews has PPG os 1.30 and Barkov has 1.24. That's a difference of 106 and 101 point player.

Barkov plays with worse linemates and is superior defensively. More than OK to say he's better.

Then again, more than okay to say it's Matthews.

 

[authentic]

First, he's not 3rd in points. He's 5th. Secondly, Matthews has PPG os 1.30 and Barkov has 1.24. That's a difference of 106 and 101 point player.

Barkov plays with worse linemates and is superior defensively. More than OK to say he's better.

Then again, more than okay to say it's Matthews.

Has Barkov been healthy this season though? Imagine not being able to use your best skill for 13 straight games (like Barkov couldn't stickhandle and use his body to protect the puck) and still putting up a season like this. Infact Matthews rarely did much of anything he normally does during that time, instead he just went to the front of the net and tried to tip the puck and get rebounds. That being said, they are still close either way because Barkov's defensive game is truly elite.

 

[Zybalto]

So many of these polls over the years.

I'll take the elite two way center who happens to be the best goal scoring center of the generation over the elite 2 way center on the other side though.

It's a no brainer.

Literally the all time goals/gp for a center list in NHL history right now:

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Matthews

Not underrating Barkov in any way here either as he's an elite center but Matthews goal scoring production is just insane for a center and he's just into his prime.

 

[Plural]

Has Barkov been healthy this season though? Imagine not being able to use your best skill for 13 straight games (like Barkov couldn't stickhandle and use his body to protect the puck) and still putting up a season like this. Infact Matthews rarely did much of anything he normally does during that time, instead he just went to the front of the net and tried to tip the puck and get rebounds. That being said, they are still close either way because Barkov's defensive game is truly elite.

I don't think he's been completely healthy.

 

[McVespa99]

So many of these polls over the years.

I'll take the elite two way center who happens to be the best goal scoring center of the generation over the elite 2 way center on the other side though.

It's a no brainer.

Literally the all time goals/gp for a center list in NHL history right now:

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Matthews

Not underrating Barkov in any way here either as he's an elite center but Matthews goal scoring production is just insane for a center and he's just into his prime.

Its really not realistic to compare a 23 year old to players that played until they were 35 or 40. Espescially since most players seem to peak earlier these days. Matthews GPG will go down as he gets older as happens with all players. Maybe not for the next 5 years. But the 10 or so years after that. So to say he is third on that list is super sketchy and phony. That havng been said he is a great scorer. No question about that. Lets just pump the tires a bit

 

[authentic]

I don't think he's been completely healthy.

It hasn't been obvious though? Then my point still stands. Their offense probably wouldn't be too close if both were healthy.

 

[authentic]

Its really not realistic to compare a 23 year old to players that played until they were 35 or 40. Espescially since most players seem to peak earlier these days. Matthews GPG will go down as he gets older as happens with all players. Maybe not for the next 5 years. But the 10 or so years after that. So to say he is third on that list is super sketchy and phony. That havng been said he is a great scorer. No question about that. Lets just pump the tires a bit

What other centers were comparable to Matthews at the same age though in goal scoring? See what you can come up with.

 

[IceManCat]

I'm a Panthers fan living in Toronto, I see a lot of Auston Matthews.

I can promise you that whatever the stats say do not paint the whole picture. Matthews does not dominate defensively the same way Barkov does, it just doesn't happen.

Also, I've always questioned the legitimacy of takeaways as a statistic. How is it actually determined? Much like hits it seems to be up to the scorers interpretation of the play.

Also, Barkov's Takeaway to Giveaway ratio is 1.86 where as Matthews' is 1.00, meaning he takes the puck away almost twice as much as he gives it away. If you're going to sit here and argue that Matthews is a better defensive player despite having half the defensive responsibility of Barkov, playing less minutes starting in his own zone and Matthews doesn't regularly kill penalties then I don't really know what you're getting at.

If AM really is such a stallworth defensively, what is Keefe missing by protecting Matthews by having him start 2/3's of his shift in the offensive zone and not having him kill penalties?

This should end the debate

 

[McVespa99]

What other centers were comparable to Matthews at the same age though in goal scoring? See what you can come up with.

No thanks. Not willing to waste that much time. Also players are far more prepared to suceed at a younger age than they ever were before so its pretty hard to compare by age over history. Players coming nto the league 20 years ago were no where near as mature as players are now.
I will just stick with my point that Matthews is a great scorer but to put him behind only Gretz and Mario at this point is BS. For the simple reason I pointed out in my other post.

 

[Plural]

It hasn't been obvious though? Then my point still stands. Their offense probably wouldn't be too close if both were healthy.

We can't really know. But it's a fair point. For what it's worth, I also believe Matthews will be the better player going forward. But as this season, they're very close.

 

[CameronNeely]

Great poll..

Made my imagination wonder..If I was to choose any player in the world to play with in the same line, it's hard to name any better linemate than Barkov...maybe I would finally look good in the rink..BUT would love to see Matthews single handedly take over games..unreal talent..

Depends on the team need. If a offensive game breaker is needed --> Matthews.

If a crappy group of mediocres needs a lift --> Barkov

 

[Ben White]

1. McDavid
2. MacKinnon
3. Matthews
4. Draisaitl
~10. Barkov

Too small a sample size as a top 10 C to put Barkov higher. Strange that people at one hand call out this season for being an outlier and to be taken with a grain of salt and at the same time I’ve never seen people on these boards being so what have you done for me lately biased as this season.

Prior to this season I’d put Matthews in the 5-10 C landscape and Barkov in the 14-20

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It hasn't been obvious though? Then my point still stands. Their offense probably wouldn't be too close if both were healthy.

Barkov would have more points if he played in the north division and Matthews played in the central.

 

[pb1300]

It hasn't been obvious though? Then my point still stands. Their offense probably wouldn't be too close if both were healthy.

How wouldn’t it be close? Matthews is the better goal scorer, but Barkov’s a better complete offensive player. Matthews needs Marner to help him reach that 90+ point plateau because he’s the primary scorer, while Barkov can get there because he drives his lines production, with his goal scoring and elite playmaking.

And when you add that to Barkov’s superior defensive game, that’s the reason why he leads this poll. Things might change later on, but right now, Barkov’s the better overall player. there is nothing wrong with Matthews being the 5th best center in the league, rather than the 4th.

 

[the paisanos guy]

So many of these polls over the years.

I'll take the elite two way center who happens to be the best goal scoring center of the generation over the elite 2 way center on the other side though.

It's a no brainer.

Literally the all time goals/gp for a center list in NHL history right now:

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Matthews

Not underrating Barkov in any way here either as he's an elite center but Matthews goal scoring production is just insane for a center and he's just into his prime.

I took Matthews in this poll easily and he's a top 5 forward in my mind, but how about waiting before the guy has a handful of Rockets before calling him the 'best goal scoring center of the generation'? He's currently 23 and has zero so far.

 

[authentic]

Barkov would have more points if he played in the north division and Matthews played in the central.

No he wouldn't.