Matthews vs Barkov vs Draisaitl

[Just doink]

one had the first 50-goal 100 point season in a decade

the other is a Leaf

He did, but Barkov is special.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

All I was saying was that his linemates don’t matter. You’ve just shown stats that illustrate this when comparing equal samples. That’s the only point I was trying to make. Your numbers are skewed by TOI, but the largest sample remained consistent. That’s my point.

But linemates do matter? Otherwise Matthews' production would be constant regardless of who is on his wing. Yet he has his lowest production with the two "plugs" versus the three "skilled" wingers.

Of course Matthews can still produce even with sub-optimal linemates. No one is suggesting (or at least I haven't seen it) that he goes from a 40 goal, point per game player with Nylander down to a 20 goal, 50 point player with Brown/Hyman. But his production does suffer for it, even if a little. The numbers literally back this up so I'm not sure why you keep saying the bolded.

I’ve never argued per 60 anything? It requires a lot of context to the point you might be left thinking Kasperi Kapanen is Matthews’ best linemate if you didn’t know any better.

Didn't say you did. My comment on that was directed at the various discussions bringing up Draisaitl's rates away from McDavid as some sort of "proof" of something. Well, those same statistics also suggest that Kapanen should be glued to Matthews wing instead of Nylander. So either the stats are questionable or they're accurate for any and all comparisons. Up to the folks who live and die by them to decide which.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

You mean to tell me Drai is versatile because he can thrive playing on McDavids wing? Lmao

If he was not versatile, wouldn't he have problems playing on the wing, even with McDavid ?

Rather than a quick hit-and-run post, you should explain your reasoning...

 

[ijuka]

Whenever I watch Draisaitl play he absolutely wows me. I think people make way too big a deal of him with McDavid, watch him play and you understand how amazing he is.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I’m sorry is Marner or Rielly McDavid? You’re argument is invalid. Marner and Matthews only play together on the PP. I wouldn’t bash Draisaitl for getting points in the PP with McDavid if he centred his own line at ES.

Who is Rielly ?

 

[Joey Moss]

Whenever I watch Draisaitl play he absolutely wows me. I think people make way too big a deal of him with McDavid, watch him play and you understand how amazing he is.

Well, that's the issue is no one watches him.

It's all assumption based opinion from Eastern fans.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Draisaitl is en elite complimentary winger.

He's great with compliments ?

Nice to know.

 

[sparxx87]

But linemates do matter? Otherwise Matthews' production would be constant regardless of who is on his wing. Yet he has his lowest production with the two "plugs" versus the three "skilled" wingers.

Of course Matthews can still produce even with sub-optimal linemates. No one is suggesting (or at least I haven't seen it) that he goes from a 40 goal, point per game player with Nylander down to a 20 goal, 50 point player with Brown/Hyman. But his production does suffer for it, even if a little. The numbers literally back this up so I'm not sure why you keep saying the bolded.



Didn't say you did. My comment on that as directed at the various discussions bringing up Draisaitl's rates away from McDavid as some sort of "proof" of something. Well, those same statistics also suggest that Kapanen should be glued to Matthews wing instead of Kapanen. So either the stats are questionable or they're accurate for any and all comparisons. Up to the folks who live and die by them to decide which.

So there’s no natural ebbs and flows to the season, numbers only fluctuate with linemates?

Player evaluation is art, not science. You’re reading from the wrong textbook.

If you want to nit pick and suggest the difference is any more than marginal, @ someone else for that.

I’m sure you can understand why I can’t answer for how other internet users choose to selectively apply numbers.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So there’s no natural ebbs and flows to the season, numbers only fluctuate with linemates?

Player evaluation is art, not science. You’re reading from the wrong textbook.

If you want to nit pick and suggest the difference is any more than marginal, @ someone else for that.

I’m sure you can understand why I can’t answer for how other internet users choose to selectively apply numbers.

You're the one that said his production doesn't drop when he's with Brown/Hyman compared to the more skilled guys. I posted the statistics that show it does. Now I'm "nitpicking" because I showed that your original statement was incorrect?

Also, it's only marginal in comparison to Nylander (although Nylander to Brown I'd argue isn't "marginal"; Nylander to Hyman, sure). Matthews' production with Kapanen and Johnsson is way more than "marginally better" than with Brown and Hyman.

 

[WillTheThrill]

If he was not versatile, wouldn't he have problems playing on the wing, even with McDavid ?

Rather than a quick hit-and-run post, you should explain your reasoning...

Anyone can play on the wing with McDavid. He’s a generational talent. He makes everyone he plays with look better.

 

[ManWithNoName]

What I've learned from this thread:
- Matthews defense is very, very, very underrated.
- Matthews will score 100 points (50/50) this year. At least.
- Matthews is the far superior player - and it is irrelevant that he had fewer points than Drai/Barkov last year.
- Matthews is not injury prone, he has had "bad luck".
- If the stats don't favor Matthews, blame it on his injuries and make up a number he would have reached had he not been injured! Please note and do not forget: all injuries are due to "bad luck".
- If someone asks for facts, make up your own or just write LOL followed by smilies.

 

[QuietContrarian]

I don't think I've ever seen people be more purposefully disingenuous, parrot false narratives and outright lie to denigrate and downplay a 50 goal, 105 point player simply because he plays with another great player. At the same time, they conveniently disregard the fact that their own players benefit from the same arrangements.

Pretty easy to sort through the BS when people (who obviously don't watch him play outside the 2 games a year vs their team and are in bed when most of his games start) proclaim that he is a passenger. Or can't realize that he compliments McDavid perfectly while bringing his own strengths that benefit Connor as well.

Case in point

What an overkill reply

 

[QuietContrarian]

Have you ever seen a more clueless group of opinions when it comes to Draisaitl?

The only reason you say that is because of how often other fanbases bash him for playing with the best player in the world. It's a two-way street here.

I am not bashing him, just stating my personal opinion about him.

 

[sparxx87]

You're the one that said his production doesn't drop when he's with Brown/Hyman compared to the more skilled guys. I posted the statistics that show it does. Now I'm "nitpicking" because I showed that your original statement was incorrect?

Also, it's only marginal in comparison to Nylander (although Nylander to Brown I'd argue isn't "marginal"; Nylander to Hyman, sure). Matthews' production with Kapanen and Johnsson is way more than "marginally better" than with Brown and Hyman.

Actually, the original statement I made was in response to someone claiming Matthews couldn’t produce without Marner and Rielly. Pretty interesting you choose to call me out.

It’s marginal when the same samples are applied. If you want to take varying samples and measure them against each other, it would seem you’re not interested in any truth.

Either way, we’re done here.

 

[Highmarker]

can't go wrong with any of these guys. I'm a huge Draisaitl fan and wouldn't trade him from the oilers for anybody...... except maybe Matthews.

 

[sheed36]

Have you ever seen a more clueless group of opinions when it comes to Draisaitl?

The only reason you say that is because of how often other fanbases bash him for playing with the best player in the world. It's a two-way street here.

From what I've seen it's mostly Leafs fans on HF who are constantly bashing Draisaitl and it's a joke that anyone is even bashing this guy just because he plays with McDavid.

Who cares that he's plays with McDavid. At the end of the day the guy produces and that's all that matters. Sure he benefits from playing with McDavid and it boosts his stats but McDavid likely also benefits from playing with him as well.

I don't recall ever seeing any Draisaitl bashing on the Habs board and have only seen posts talking about how good the guy really is.

 

[6ix]

Its not Draisaitls fault Matthews can't be a proven producer over an entire season because he's always injured. Glass cannon is in 3rd place when compared to these guys.

McDavid is a glass cannon by your standards with more games missed and 2 major injuries in 4 years. Missed half the season with a broken collarbone and would of missed another half the season if it wasn’t the last game of the season when he blew his knee out.

Does that mean we turn a blind eye to his talent?

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

What I've learned from this thread:
- Matthews defense is very, very, very underrated.
- Matthews will score 100 points (50/50) this year. At least.
- Matthews is the far superior player - and it is irrelevant that he had fewer points than Drai/Barkov last year.
- Matthews is not injury prone, he has had "bad luck".
- If the stats don't favor Matthews, blame it on his injuries and make up a number he would have reached had he not been injured! Please note and do not forget: all injuries are due to "bad luck".
- If someone asks for facts, make up your own or just write LOL followed by smilies.

You forgot, claim he's "playing injured" and "doesn't look right" when he returns to the line-up and slumps at any point for a period of time up to but not limited to 20-50 games afterwards.

Because that way, you've always got a convenient excuse.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

McDavid is a glass cannon by your standards with more games missed and 2 major injuries in 4 years. Missed half the season with a broken collarbone and would of missed another half the season if it wasn’t the last game of the season when he blew his knee out.

Does that mean we turn a blind eye to his talent?

Wait you're going to use 4 years of McDavid vs 3 years of Matthews to try to stretch some obscure point in? LOL! Surprisingly expected. Let me know when McDavid breaks his collar bone over and over again like Matthews and his recurring shoulder blow outs.

McDavid is a proven producer while Matthews is fairy tales and woulda coulda shouldas.

 

[Mestaruus]

Barkov is top-5 player in the league so him.

 

[drktmplr12]

Even Babcock underrates AM defensive ability. Only played him 4:43 on PK since 2016.

Draisaitl 209 minutes since 2016.

Barkov 387 minutes.

But yeah AM all day

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Actually, the original statement I made was in response to someone claiming Matthews couldn’t produce without Marner and Rielly. Pretty interesting you choose to call me out.

Who is "calling you out"? When I saw you post that Matthews' production remains the same no matter who he plays with, I got curious and looked it up. Turns out you weren't correct, and I posted the stats that I saw to prove it (figured you wouldn't just take my word for it).

It’s marginal when the same samples are applied. If you want to take varying samples and measure them against each other, it would seem you’re not interested in any truth.

I'm not sure what this even means. I'm not manipulating or cherry picking any stats or isolating different sample sizes to fit a theory. I'm literally taking the seasons from 2016-17 to 2018-19 and posting what the combined stats are for Matthews with those various wingers. The sample size is literally his entire career minus the first 4 games of this season.

It seems to me you were wrong but don't want to admit it, so now you're trying to find reasons for why looking at Matthews' entire career with these wingers is somehow not applicable to the question of whether or not his production remains the same no matter which winger he plays with.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

(Mod) You’re always anti leaf. I can understand an Oiler fan going to bat for their player as a homer.

Comparing them as players centring their own line Draisaitl is outclassed. Fking James Neal has 6 goals playing with McDavid when he has like 7 all last year.

Draisaitls stats are fake and inflated when ranking him as a player until he does it on his own line. Matthews would score 60 goals with McDavid going purely off GPG and G/60.

Bottom line is if he’s a to be in the class of franchise centre like Matthews and Barkov he would centre his own line full time, PERIOD.

Matthews is the first franchise center to never hit 80 points.

I wonder how that is.

I hate to break it to you, Neal doesn't play on McDavid's line 5 on 5.

 

[6ix]

Matthews is the first franchise center to never hit 80 points.

I wonder how that is.

I hate to break it to you, Neal doesn't play on McDavid's line 5 on 5.

You wonder how that is? He’s over ppg his last 2 seasons we’ll on his way this year while being one of the top goal scorers.

Draisaitl never cracked 60 points when he was the centre on his own line even WITH Hall as his winger.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

You wonder how that is? He’s over ppg his last 2 seasons we’ll on his way this year while being one of the top goal scorers.

Draisaitl never cracked 60 points when he was the centre on his own line even WITH Hall as his winger.

If Draisaitl never played a minute of 5on5 time with McDavid last year he would of had 83 points.