Confirmed with Link: Matthews new deal Pt 3

[Budz22]

It's because all of the other teams don't dramatically overpay their franchise centre.

Hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahahahhahah

 

[Budz22]

The argument on the leafs board (and ONLY the leafs board) is that Dubas is overpaying because he (lol) see's where the league is going in the future, contractually.

My argument is that I'm not so sure it's true.

Here's my problem... if other gm's get their players signed for MUCH better contracts than what Dubas gave to Nylander and Matthews... I don't think ANY of these people will just admit they're wrong. They will cite a whole bunch of stupid bull**** to try and claim they're still right.

What do you think Marner deserves on his next contract? What do you think Point deserves? Let's see if it pans out...

Just stop.

 

[Legion34]

so with Matthews signed, what are realistic moves we could make for next season to get Marner + Kap under the cap + all the other roster positions we need to fit under. Im pretty worried what this team will look like. what if they cant fit Marner under the cap. pretty scary only 7.5M in space. Marleau's contract is looking awful right now

They can fit them all in.

Marner at 10.5
Kap at 2.75
Mango at 2.25

Lose brown and it all fits. I think marleau is gone personally. It all lines up for him to terminate his contract.

Regardless. All that would happen is that we would have to roll a D of

Rielly. Muzzin
Dermott. Zaitsev
Rosen. Oz

Thats a worst case scenario until cap space opens up. IF they all sign high and marleau stays. More likely. One of the others happen or we trade one of kappy etc for D

 

[budzz]

It's because all of the other teams don't dramatically overpay their franchise centre.

Name another team that has a Franchise Center RFA that is worthy of a comparison.?? There are currently only 2 and both signed over a year ago, McDavid and Eichel. Matthews is clearly above Eichel by a mile, and not far behind McDavid, better in some aspects.

Term is not ideal but bridges never have been.

Would you seriously play hardball with a possible generational young highly coveted 1C for a half million or so? Make him sit?

The "dramatic overpayment" narrative is ridiculous and not even close.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[Mickey Marner]

The argument on the leafs board (and ONLY the leafs board) is that Dubas is overpaying because he (lol) see's where the league is going in the future, contractually.

My argument is that I'm not so sure it's true.

Here's my problem... if other gm's get their players signed for MUCH better contracts than what Dubas gave to Nylander and Matthews... I don't think ANY of these people will just admit they're wrong. They will cite a whole bunch of stupid bull**** to try and claim they're still right.

What do you think Marner deserves on his next contract? What do you think Point deserves? Let's see if it pans out...

16 teams have spent >95% of the cap this season, 21 did last season, 24 in 2016-17, 19 in 2015-16. Only 11 teams have spent below the salary cap median in each of the last 4 seasons combined. There simply is no scenario where one team can over/under pay its' own players to such a degree. Other teams may allocate their funds at their own discretion. Complaining about investing ~11 million of our space into a player who wins us hockey games is absurd when you consider most teams in the league (including Toronto) have 11+ million spent on players that lose them hockey games.

 

[nuck]

Name another team that has a Franchise Center RFA that is worthy of a comparison.?? There are currently only 2 and th signed over a year ago, McDavid and Eichel. Matthews is clearly above Eichel by a mile, and not far behind McDavid, better in some aspects.

Term is not ideal but bridges never have been.

Would you seriously play hardball with a possible generational young highly coveted 1C for a half million or so? Make him sit?

The "dramatic overpayment" narrative is ridiculous and not even close.

Haters gonna hate.

"Poor deal" should be substituted for dramatic overpayment. If this was a 7 year term nobody squawks and ditto for anything under $11M without the crazy front loading. Still huge money for a guy who has mostly ppg to show his potential dominance, AM left nothing on the table but people also need to remember this isn't greedy Matty, he is just a kid and not telling his agent how much the market will bear. Dubas was crushed by the agents, not the players. That doesn't help the club's cap situation, but it probably reminds us as fans that the guys on the ice aren't the problem. Just enjoy what they can do for us after such a long period of starvation.

So far the cap and the recent deals haven't cost the club anything. If people can get past the fact that this deal has yet to actually hurt the club, maybe the the AM fanboys will stop trying to say this is a good deal. Kucherov was a good deal. McDavid was a good deal. Matty, only a good deal for Matty

 

[Leafs at Knight]

I just looked up Kucherov and he signed an 8 year extension for 9.5 million. That extension is also mostly UFA years. It also only kicks in next year. Dude also had 100 points last year and will have way more this year...

How the **** did Matthews have the position to even argue for this deal, let alone get it? Who the **** did he compare himself to? Higher cap hit, no UFA years, shorter term, and has nowhere near the stats Kucherov has.

Yea it sucks seeing our young players being elite a lot earlier than a lot of other players like Kucherov. Kucherovs rookie season was his D+3 aka Matthews this year where he put up 18 points in 52 games (9 goals). He didn't break 70 points (had 80+) until his D+6. Also sucks seeing us having one of the best goal scorers of the last couple decades who also plays a more important position in center. Don't forget the tax advantage.

That's why you see steal contracts like Mackinnon or Scheifele because they weren't nearly as good as our young talent were at the same age. Of course the contract isn't amazing (term sucks) but there's a lot of differences between the two. The cap will be like $100 mil in a few seasons anyhow.

 

[Lisa Needs Braces]

Remember when Tyler Bozak was our #1 centre?

Matthews got what he deserved, and the contract was set up to try and alleviate the leafs cap issues in the next couple years. This gives Matthews the opportunity to cash in on his next contract as a reward and make some extra money in the process.

We have a generational centre on our hands who we want as a leaf for life. You have to pay these guys what they are worth and has been pointed out, between Eichel and McDavid is where he currently ought to be paid.

Ultimately, the NHL is a business on both the player and the team side. Every other team in the league would sign this guy to this contract if given the opportunity.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Huh?????

The 2nd contracts of Malkin. Crosby. Toews. Stamkos. Kane. We’re all 5 years.....

Matthews has a legitimate case to be a top 3 goal scorer out of the last 25 years and by some metrics. Is the best.

Him ending up between Kane/toews and Malkin/Crosby is pretty much exactly where he should be cap wise.

All of those comparison are from like 10 years ago under a different cba.

When comparisons were shown from the past year or two, you called them "exceptions".

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If that is the condition , and Point and his ilk get Much better contracts. I will be the first to admit that I am wrong. As of yet, the condition has not been met.

This is a very strange stance to take.

So, based on all comparables, Matthews is dramatically overpaid (once you consider term of contract). You're pretty much saying that we should ignore all of that, and hope that Matthews dramatic overpayment sets a new precedent in the league.

I mean... I'm not sure if it's a good rationalization to say "Let's just wait for the future and see if other gm's dramatically overpay their players as well before we call this a bad contract"

 

[Warden of the North]

Yeah, it's flat out bull****. It's unprecedented. There is no comparable to it. Matthews has allegedly "set" the new market. That's how bad the contract is. We have to rationalize it as "setting a new market" to try and make ourselves feel better about it. Most of the leaf fans here are still defending it. Which is baffling, really.

If Point signs for substantially lower than Marner, and leaf fans here make lame excuses for it, I might literally not be able to handle it. Health-wise. Both mentally and physically.

I mean, if you ignore the comparables, then of course theres no comparables.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

16 teams have spent >95% of the cap this season, 21 did last season, 24 in 2016-17, 19 in 2015-16. Only 11 teams have spent below the salary cap median in each of the last 4 seasons combined. There simply is no scenario where one team can over/under pay its' own players to such a degree. Other teams may allocate their funds at their own discretion. Complaining about investing ~11 million of our space into a player who wins us hockey games is absurd when you consider most teams in the league (including Toronto) have 11+ million spent on players that lose them hockey games.

That seems like one heck of a way to rationalize a dramatic overpayment.

 

[4thline]

"Poor deal" should be substituted for dramatic overpayment. If this was a 7 year term nobody squawks and ditto for anything under $11M without the crazy front loading

Yup. at 5 years anything 10.15-11 would have been bilaterally "fair", anything less a player concession, more a team concession. I just don't see the point of being upset over 630k-1.5 million on an 11 million dollar player.

 

[BertCorbeau]

That seems like one heck of a way to rationalize a dramatic overpayment.

You keep saying this but it’s flagrantly wrong

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yea it sucks seeing our young players being elite a lot earlier than a lot of other players like Kucherov. Kucherovs rookie season was his D+3 aka Matthews this year where he put up 18 points in 52 games (9 goals). He didn't break 70 points (had 80+) until his D+6. Also sucks seeing us having one of the best goal scorers of the last couple decades who also plays a more important position in center. Don't forget the tax advantage.

That's why you see steal contracts like Mackinnon or Scheifele because they weren't nearly as good as our young talent were at the same age. Of course the contract isn't amazing (term sucks) but there's a lot of differences between the two. The cap will be like $100 mil in a few seasons anyhow.

You've said in this post that goals are specifically important, and that center is a more important position.

Ok.

I am going to save and remember this thread.

Marner and Point have almost the precise same career points (and p/gp) as of right now. Point is a CENTER. And Point has far more goals. (BP: 83 MM: 62)

Based on YOUR precise argument in this thread, Point should get FAR more money than Marner. But do you really think that's going to happen? You see... there just isn't any consistency. The very things you've used here to argue in Matthews vs Kucherov will NOT be used in Marner vs Point comparisons. There is NO consistency.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You keep saying this but it’s flagrantly wrong

The guy's career high is 69 points. This is unprecedented. The argument of "It's only 69 points because he gets injured all of the time" is an argument to pay him LESS, not more.

 

[Joey Hoser]

The guy's career high is 69 points.

You can't sit there and honestly pretend like we don't know if he's better than a 69 point player.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You can't sit there and honestly pretend like we don't know if he's better than that.

If he can stay healthy, sure. But we've always known that. That's my precise point. The fact that he's injured all of the time IS a legitimate concern. It's a reason to pay him LESS money. Not an excuse to inflate his numbers and pay him MORE money.

 

[IPS]

Yeah, it's flat out bull****. It's unprecedented. There is no comparable to it. Matthews has allegedly "set" the new market. That's how bad the contract is. We have to rationalize it as "setting a new market" to try and make ourselves feel better about it. Most of the leaf fans here are still defending it. Which is baffling, really.

If Point signs for substantially lower than Marner, and leaf fans here make lame excuses for it, I might literally not be able to handle it. Health-wise. Both mentally and physically.

Forget Point man, it's Rantanen and Aho who need to be waited upon to sign first before we sign Marner. If it's one penny more than Rantanen especially, I'm gonna lose my f***ing mind.

 

[Joey Hoser]

If he can stay healthy, sure. But we've always known that. That's my precise point. The fact that he's injured all of the time IS a legitimate concern. It's a reason to pay him LESS money. Not an excuse to inflate his numbers and pay him MORE money.

We don't get a discount on one of the best players in the league because of that time he and Rielly accidentally ran into each other, or the time he got caught by Trouba. That's not how it works.

Crosby and Malkin have put up just ONE 82 game season BETWEEN them in the last TEN years. I've never heard anyone say they are overpaid because of it, or that Pittsburg is hurting as a result.

 

[Legion34]

All of those comparison are from like 10 years ago under a different cba.

When comparisons were shown from the past year or two, you called them "exceptions".

Because they were the 5 year contracts? Comparing term to term....... those are the 5 year. Deals.

That’s why Matthews is hard to compare on a 5 year deal. The comparables were old... but he stays in line. With the original ones. He sits below ovy/Crosby/Malkin. But above the rest in terms of production. Soooo 13-14 percent on a 5 year deal seems somewhat fair. The problem is the contract was a year too short in my mind.

Again over the past 25 years. Auston Matthews has scored the 8th most goals already in his first 3 seasons. He has missed 30 games. He has 24 games to go. He is already second in even strength goals. He is third in goals per game and FIRST in goals per minute.

The players above him are ovy and Malkin and both started a year later.

Again. Regardless of whether or not people wanted a 5 year deal. What is a fair cap percentage on a 5 year deal for a top 1-3 goal scorer currently in the league. And has been one of the top 3 in the last 25 years?

What’s the value?

 

[Legion34]

The guy's career high is 69 points. This is unprecedented. The argument of "It's only 69 points because he gets injured all of the time" is an argument to pay him LESS, not more.

I’m not sure you know what unprecedented means?

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Two things to remember in this thread:

1) Teams do NOT get into cap trouble by overpaying their star players (Matthews,Tavares,Nylander,Marner).

2) Teams DO get into cap trouble by overpaying guys like Hyman, Brown, Johnsson,Kapanen,Dermott. Especially Hyman and Brown when their contracts are up you need to move them or let them go. You end up in cap hell like Edmonton or Detroit a few years ago by paying these guys between $4M and $6M when you could keep the cap space and replace them if you develop players properly.

 

[Legion34]

You've said in this post that goals are specifically important, and that center is a more important position.

Ok.

I am going to save and remember this thread.

Marner and Point have almost the precise same career points (and p/gp) as of right now. Point is a CENTER. And Point has far more goals. (BP: 83 MM: 62)

Based on YOUR precise argument in this thread, Point should get FAR more money than Marner. But do you really think that's going to happen? You see... there just isn't any consistency. The very things you've used here to argue in Matthews vs Kucherov will NOT be used in Marner vs Point comparisons. There is NO consistency.

1.) You are actually going to ignore the obvious tax situation????? You can’t actually be serious with this ..... you want consistency in contracts when there is a team that doesn’t have to pay income tax?

Rantanen would be a reasonable argument. If Marner makes more Than him on a similar term (provided Marner doesn’t completely destroy him in the last 20 games). Then you could have a point.

So far you have been proven wrong with your Nylander views and there is no basis of comparables on Matthews.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

They can fit them all in.

Marner at 10.5
Kap at 2.75
Mango at 2.25

Lose brown and it all fits. I think marleau is gone personally. It all lines up for him to terminate his contract.

Regardless. All that would happen is that we would have to roll a D of

Rielly. Muzzin
Dermott. Zaitsev
Rosen. Oz

Thats a worst case scenario until cap space opens up. IF they all sign high and marleau stays. More likely. One of the others happen or we trade one of kappy etc for D

Seriously though, if I'm Kapannen or Johnsson, am I happy with a third of Nylaner's salary? Especially Kap. He may not be Nylander but he's shown he's in his league.

And when you think about it, the difference between 10.5 and 11 6 for Matthews is really a respect/ego discussion because he's set for life regardless. Kappy at 2.75M doesn't set him up at all. I.e., he has WAY more motivation to hold out for a 4M deal than Matthews needed to bicker over an extra mill.

Bottom line, I don't expect Kapannen to sign for 2.75M which is why he may be gone.