Value of: Marner Relative to Draisaitl **pleaes re-read OP POST**

[Ctrain2k]

Sure am, the PPG over his career and the hardware to back it up to.

Ok yeah so you really are just clueless

 

[2legit2quit]

Man I thought I gave away that one pretty easily with the hint. Back to the drawing board I guess. I have faith that you'll figure it out. Here's one more hint. When one team is on the power play the other is on the _______ ____.

As for your edit. I'm not ignoring anything, I already stated how turnovers and takeaways are an interesting stat to use as a heavy portion of your argument. I'm also using the stats that you presented in an argument, its not my fault that you can't grasp why all-situations CF% and FF% might favour Marner.

I AM NOT USING CF / FF

Why are you ignoring THE OTHER STATS???

• Is it because it doesn't fit your narrative??

LOOL. Oilers fan gets caught lying. He is ignoring my stats that I provided such as

• Takeaways
• Turnovers
• Points/60

Why do you guys think he's ignoring those stats? I'll leave it to you to figure out.

It's because the stats Don't fit his ________

 

[The GM]

I don’t know how to ask this without coming off as rude, but what GMs have said this?

Pete chiralli and Marc bergivan, Dale tallon and Brian benning didn’t officially say sanything, but were nodding their heads in agreement

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Did you really just use all situations CF%/FF% (if you can't figure out the problem there then you really shouldn't ever be linking advanced stats)? Now do even strength.

Hahahahahah these are the exact fans I'm talking about.

 

[McFlyingV]

I AM NOT USING CF / FF

Why are you ignoring THE OTHER STATS???

• Is it because it doesn't fit your narrative??

LOOL. Oilers fan gets caught lying. He is ignoring my stats that I provided such as

• Takeaways
• Turnovers
• Points/60

Why do you guys think he's ignoring those stats? I'll leave it to you to figure out.

It's because the stats Don't fit his ________

Very obtuse I see. Apparently I need to spell it out. Draisaitl penalty kills and Marner doesn't. This skews any all situation stat related to P/60, FF%, CF% (stats you did use, don't try to act now like you didn't because they don't support your argument). So you have takeaways and giveaways. If thats enough for you then great I guess?

 

[2legit2quit]

He is ignoring these stats that I provided @McFlyingV

• TURNOVERS ( Marner = 50, Draisaitl = 84) --->> Favour Marner
• ----
• TAKEAWAYS ( Marner = 85, Draisaitl = 78) --->> Favour Marner
• ----
• Look at the POINTS/60 (Marner = 3.1 P/60 ----- Draisaitl = 3.1 P/60) Equal
• ----
• BLOCK SHOTS (Draisaitl = 24 ; Marner = 25) ----- Equal --- but hey 25 > 24, ... *mocking oilers fans about Marner 69 Points*

 

[The GM]

So Dra is an 80 point player then?

No, he’s a ~80 point player

 

[2legit2quit]

Very obtuse I see. Apparently I need to spell it out. Draisaitl penalty kills and Marner doesn't. This skews any all situation stat related to P/60, FF%, CF% (stats you did use, don't try to act now like you didn't because they don't support your argument). So you have takeaways and giveaways. If thats enough for you then great I guess?

So where are your stats showing that DRAISAITL > MARNER?

You don't have any other than spewing B.S.

 

[2legit2quit]

Hahahahahah these are the exact fans I'm talking about.

I clearly showed stats such as

Takeaways, Turnovers, P/60, Blocked Shots.

SO how do you say that Draisaitl > Marner??
Are you using your "EYE TEST" (god like, he knows everything)

Where are your stats? You are the one saying Draisaitl > Marner!
I provided stats showing Marner > Draisaitl ---- AT BEST --- They are =

Where are your stats???????

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Apart from CF & FF

Marner (EVEN STRENGTH): CF = 52%; FF = 52%
Draisaitl (EVEN STRENGTH): FF = 53%; FF = 54% ------>>>> There isn't a HUGE GAP @ Even Strength ----- BUT there is A HUGE GAP favouring Marner @ ALL SITUATIONS.

Marner's overall CF & FF are better than Draisaitl .... So what if his even strength is = to Draisaitl?? I forgot where scoring goals on the PP doesn't count.


Forgot CF & FF!

• Look at the TURNOVERS ( Marner = 50, Draisaitl = 84)
• look at the POINTS/60
• look at the TAKEAWAYS ( Marner = 85, Draisaitl = 78)

Apart from CF & FF

Marner (EVEN STRENGTH): CF = 52%; FF = 52%
Draisaitl (EVEN STRENGTH): FF = 53%; FF = 54% ------>>>> There isn't a HUGE GAP @ Even Strength ----- BUT there is A HUGE GAP favouring Marner @ ALL SITUATIONS.

Marner's overall CF & FF are better than Draisaitl .... So what if his even strength is = to Draisaitl?? I forgot where scoring goals on the PP doesn't count.


Forgot CF & FF!

• Look at the TURNOVERS ( Marner = 50, Draisaitl = 84)
• look at the POINTS/60
• look at the TAKEAWAYS ( Marner = 85, Draisaitl = 78)

Wow just wow. Do you know that Drai plays PK and Marner does not and you are including that in your stats? The Oilers had the worst pp in the league and you are including that in your stats too.

All the fonts and fancy colors does not change that you know nothing about advanced stats at all.

 

[McFlyingV]

So where are your stats showing that DRAISAITL > MARNER?

You don't have any other than spewing B.S.

I like how you dodge the actual content of my post when it disproves your stats. Again, do I really need to explain again why P/60 for all situations can be skewed when one player penalty kills and plays more minutes per game?

What stats do I need to show that Draisaitl is better and has been over the past two season (and yes I realize Marner was drafted a year later because I understand context unlike someone in this thread)?

The past 2 seasons and playoffs:

Draisaitl - regular season: 160GP-54G-93A-147P
Draisaitl - playoffs: 13GP-6G-10A-16P

Marner - regular season: 159GP-41G-89A-130P
Marner - playoffs: 6GP-1G-3A-4P

 

[2legit2quit]

Very obtuse I see. Apparently I need to spell it out. Draisaitl penalty kills and Marner doesn't. This skews any all situation stat related to P/60, FF%, CF% (stats you did use, don't try to act now like you didn't because they don't support your argument). So you have takeaways and giveaways. If thats enough for you then great I guess?

It's not his fault he doesn't get PK Minutes.

He has team depth.

This doesn't change the stats such as

1. Takeaways
2. Turnovers
3. Points/60
4. Blocked Shots

What data of statistics are you basing your argument that DRAISAITL > Marner other than your spewing of B.S.?

 

[McFlyingV]

It's not his fault he doesn't get PK Minutes.

He has team depth.

This doesn't change the stats such as

1. Takeaways
2. Turnovers
3. Points/60
4. Blocked Shots

What data of statistics are you basing your argument that DRAISAITL > Marner other than your spewing of B.S.?

This is like talking to a wall. You really can't see how playing on the penalty kill would negatively affect a player's P/60?

 

[2legit2quit]

I like how you dodge the actual content of my post when it disproves your stats. Again, do I really need to explain again why P/60 for all situations can be skewed when one player penalty kills and plays more minutes per game?

What stats do I need to show that Draisaitl is better and has been over the past two season (and yes I realize Marner was drafted a year later because I understand context unlike someone in this thread)?

The past 2 seasons and playoffs:

Draisaitl - regular season: 160GP-54G-93A-147P
Draisaitl - playoffs: 13GP-6G-10A-16P

Marner - regular season: 159GP-41G-89A-130P
Marner - playoffs: 6GP-1G-3A-4P

Points/60 matters.
Sorry I made an error. Marner's P/60 = 3.0 ------- Draisaitl P/60 = 2.7

Draisaitl gets more ice time than Marner.

You can't just ASSUME that if "Marner played on the PK, he couldn't maintain his POINTS/60 of 3"

My QUESTION to you; is that HOW CAN YOU assume, that MARNER couldn't maintain his P/60 of 3.0 if he played PK time? Marner's P/60 might drop to 2.7 BUT IT STILL WILL = Draisaitl's P/60!

YOU CAN NOT MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS!

• AND EVEN THAN ---- Marner still has .3 MORE P/60

 

[hockeyguy1967]

EVEN WITHOUT CF & FF ------ MARNER > Draisaitl ------- I am not even using CF/FF below, You're only excuse is that Draisaitl plays for a **** team --- Marner played on the 4th line and 3rd line for half the season.


So! All-Situations doesn't Matter?? I forgot when the NHL took out PowerPlays, and Gary Betts said

"Hey guys, Oilers fans told me to say that Power Play goals do not count any more because ... uhhh ... it shows Leon Draisaitl's flaws, and, it makes Marner look like a superstar"

• Look at the TURNOVERS ( Marner = 50, Draisaitl = 84)
• ----
• look at the TAKEAWAYS ( Marner = 85, Draisaitl = 78)
• ----
• Look at the POINTS/60 (Marner = 3.1 P/60 ----- Draisaitl = 3.1 P/60)

(I AM NOT EVEN USING CF/FF for obvious reasons anymore to prove that Marner > Draisaitl)

WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THE OTHER STATS

• Turnovers
• Takeaways
• Points/60
• Because it doesn't fit your narrative? Gotcha. I'll let you figure out how you played yourself =)

ALSO --- you talk about how Draisaitl's team is trash...

BUT Marner played on the 4th LINE / 3RD LINE --- HALF THE SEASON!

Marner played with Komarov and Moore a lot, and Bozak, too! Also JVR is ONE OF THE WORST 5v5 Players in the NHL!

Surely: Lucic/Strome/Pulja >> Moore, Komarov, Bozak, Brown, etc.

Might want to look who Marner spent the majority of the time with hint it's Kadri and Marleau.
Also when you compair players you use even strength as pp has more to do with teamates, coaching, useage and offence from defense.
Marner p/60 2.1
Drai p/60 2.7
Marner is a glorified pp specialist.
I mean this in the nicest way possible but are you on the spectrum?

 

[2legit2quit]

Might want to look who Marner spent the majority of the time with hint it's Kadri and Marleau.
Also when you compair players you use even strength as pp has more to do with teamates, coaching, useage and offence from defense.
Marner p/60 2.1
Drai p/60 2.7
Marner is a glorified pp specialist.
I mean this in the nicest way possible but are you on the spectrum?

SO When is the Power Play not part of the game?


Did I miss where Power Play goals count as 1/2 BECAUSE HFBoards users think that??

I am truly sorry Oilers Fans.

I must educate you --- when a team scores on the PP --- it DOESN'T COUNT AS 1/2 A GOAL!

It counts as 1 WHOLE GOAL. Now say it with me, please.

 

[2legit2quit]

Points/60 matters.
Sorry I made an error. Marner's P/60 = 3.0 ------- Draisaitl P/60 = 2.7

Draisaitl gets more ice time than Marner.

You can't just ASSUME that if "Marner played on the PK, he couldn't maintain his POINTS/60 of 3"

My QUESTION to you; is that HOW CAN YOU assume, that MARNER couldn't maintain his P/60 of 3.0 if he played PK time? Marner's P/60 might drop to 2.7 BUT IT STILL WILL = Draisaitl's P/60!

YOU CAN NOT MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS!

Your whole argument that Draisaitl > Marner is based off of assumptions that

• If Marner got PK time, there's no way, he could maintain his P/60

ASSUMPTIONS ARE NOT STATS!

It's like talking to a crack addict. They don't listen to you. Make assumptions, based everything off of " WHAT IFs" and don't have any sort of knowledge/DATA to back them up with.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Whose the better player and whose more valuable?
Who do you think is the better player and has more value? ***EDIT PROVING MARNER>DRAISAITL WITH STATS**

AADVANCED STATS For Marner vs Draisaitl!

Marner: Takeaways = 85; Turnovers = 50; CF% = 59%; FF% = 57%; TOI/GAME: 16:39 ; 3.1 Points/60

Draisaitl: Takeaways = 78; Turnovers = 84; CF% = 53%; FF% = 54%; TOI/GAME: 19:32 ; 3.1 Points/60

How in the world is Draisaitl Outproducing Marner???

I provided stats backing up;

1) Marner > Draisaitl Defensively!
2) Marner = Draisaitl Offensively! ------> Marner = Draisaitl P.60

You know you haven’t proved a thing here, right? Like literally absolutely nothing.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Points/60 matters.
Sorry I made an error. Marner's P/60 = 3.0 ------- Draisaitl P/60 = 2.7

Draisaitl gets more ice time than Marner.

You can't just ASSUME that if "Marner played on the PK, he couldn't maintain his POINTS/60 of 3"

My QUESTION to you; is that HOW CAN YOU assume, that MARNER couldn't maintain his P/60 of 3.0 if he played PK time? Marner's P/60 might drop to 2.7 BUT IT STILL WILL = Draisaitl's P/60!

YOU CAN NOT MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS!

Your whole argument that Draisaitl > Marner is based off of assumptions that

• If Marner got PK time, there's no way, he could maintain his P/60

ASSUMPTIONS ARE NOT STATS!

Uh, yes, you can absolutely assume that. The PK is an almost 100% exclusive DEFENCE role.

That’s like saying ‘well you can’t ASSUME that Adam Larsson WOULDN’T put up better points per 60 than Morgan Rielly, Larsson gets no PP time. If got more PP time he’d put up more points no problem!’

‘You can’t assume that Chad Johnson doesn’t = Henrik Lundqvist, he’s never gotten the starter’s workload! How do you KNOW he isn’t elite?’

What even is this? Has this conversation not gone to your liking?

 

[2legit2quit]

Uh, yes, you can absolutely assume that. What even is this? Has this conversation not gone to your liking?

So LETS assume Marner gets PK time. [ Marner's current P/60 = 3 ----- Draisaitl's current P/60 = 2.7]

Marner's P/60 drops to 2.6 OR 2.7 OR EVEN 2.5

Draisaitl's P/60 = 2.7

IS THERE MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE??

Tell me? Has this conversation not gone to your liking?
Also --- please also factor in the 2 YEAR AGE DIFFERENCE!!

 

[McFlyingV]

Points/60 matters.
Sorry I made an error. Marner's P/60 = 3.0 ------- Draisaitl P/60 = 2.7

Draisaitl gets more ice time than Marner.

You can't just ASSUME that if "Marner played on the PK, he couldn't maintain his POINTS/60 of 3"

My QUESTION to you; is that HOW CAN YOU assume, that MARNER couldn't maintain his P/60 of 3.0 if he played PK time? Marner's P/60 might drop to 2.7 BUT IT STILL WILL = Draisaitl's P/60!

YOU CAN NOT MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS!

• AND EVEN THAN ---- Marner still has .3 MORE P/60

P/60 matters more than actual production. Why, because you said so?

David Perron has a P/60 of 3.13 in all situations. Rielly Smith 3.05. Are they both better players than Draisaitl and Marner?

Honestly, if you can't use a little bit of critical thinking (tough I know) or inductive reasoning to think why P/60 might drop if you regularly penalty kill, then I really can't help you. I'm not your 9th grade teacher.

 

[2legit2quit]

P/60 matters more than production. Why, because you said so?

David Perron has a P/60 of 3.13 in all situations. Rielly Smith 3.05. Are they both better players than Draisaitl and Marner?

Honestly, if you can't use a little bit of critical thinking (tough I know) or inductive reasoning to think why P/60 might drop if you regularly penalty kill, then I really can't help you. I'm not your 9th grade teacher.

They are CURRENTLY on par or better than Draisaitl. TAKE NOTE that Perron/Rielly are older than Draisaitl. There is a reason why Vegas is a top 5 team in the NHL ---- It is largely due to the play of Rielly/Perron, and others obviously.

And also factor in that Draisaitl IS 2 YEARS OLDER THAN Marner ... Yet Marner is = to Draisaitl in stats.

I am not your 11th Grade Pre-Calc Teacher. Honestly, if you use CRITICAL THINKING, you will see that when you factor in PK time, Marner's P/60 drop WILL STILL BE CLOSE TO DRAISAITL'S P/60

To further elaborate .............

• Marner's P/60 would drop from 3.0 TO 2.7 OR 2.5 OR 2.6
• Draisaitl's current P/60 = 2.7

 

[ChaoticOrange]

So LETS assume Marner gets PK time. [ Marner's current P/60 = 3 ----- Draisaitl's current P/60 = 2.7]

Marner's P/60 drops to 2.6 OR 2.7 OR EVEN 2.5

Draisaitl's P/60 = 2.7

IS THERE MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE??

Tell me? Has this conversation not gone to your liking? PLEASE ELABORATE??

Also --- please also factor in the 2 YEAR AGE DIFFERENCE!!!! Has this not gone to your liking??

Draisaitl isn’t two years older. Saying so is disingenuous.

This season was his 21-22 year old season. This season is Marner’s 20-21 year old season. Developmentally, Drai is one year older.

Secondly, Draisaitl produces at even strength at a much better clip than Marner. Tell me, which is harder - scoring when you have the same amount of players on the ice as the opponent, or when they have one or even two less than you? Assume your powerplay coach didn’t give up doing his job to snort stick wax between periods like ours did.

Thirdly, yes, you can definitely assume that Marner’s P/60 would drop if he was a go-to PK player. If it DID drop, then the gap between Draisaitl and Marner would be even more pronounced.

And, finally fourth - temper tantrums are unbecoming. We were having some good conversations here. Conduct yourself like an adult .

 

[2legit2quit]

Draisaitl isn’t two years older. Saying so is disingenuous.

This season was his 21-22 year old season. This season is Marner’s 20-21 year old season. Developmentally, Drai is one year older.

Secondly, Draisaitl produces at even strength at a much better clip than Marner. Tell me, which is harder - scoring when you have the same amount of players on the ice as the opponent, or when they have one or even two less than you? Assume your powerplay coach didn’t give up doing his job to snort stick wax between periods like ours did.

Thirdly, yes, you can definitely assume that Marner’s P/60 would drop if he was a go-to PK player. If it DID drop, then the gap between Draisaitl and Marner would be even more pronounced.

And, finally fourth - temper tantrums are unbecoming. We were having some good conversations here. Conduct yourself like an adult .

Please tell me when the NHL Reduces Power Play Goals to the value of 1/2

This is not badminton or volleyball, or what ever you are confusing hockey with.

Power Play Goal = Even Strength Goal

If it's so easy to score on the P.P. Why can't Leon do it? He plays with FRICKING McDavid.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

They are CURRENTLY on par or better than Draisaitl. TAKE NOTE that Perron/Rielly are older than Draisaitl.

And also factor in that Draisaitl IS 2 YEARS OLDER THAN Marner ... Yet Marner is = to Draisaitl in stats.


ALSO ---- If you factor in P.K. Time

• Marner's P/60 would drop from 3.0 TO 2.7 OR 2.5 OR 2.6
• Draisaitl's current P/60 = 2.7

Did you just learn HTML this week?

Did you take in consideration Marners pp on ice shooting percentage of 19.67%? Or his total time pked all year of 1.967 minutes? Or are you only using using his ice time of the last 10 games of 196 minutes and 7 seconds?