Value of: Marner Relative to Draisaitl **pleaes re-read OP POST**

[hockeyguy1967]

Good night. It was fun arguing with you guys.

I understand what you have to say and I respect it.

But IMHO, only time will tell ----- a player like Marner and Draisaitl are so close, that you can't use stats or the god forbid '' eye test '' to deter whose better.

They are not close. The only thing Marner is better at is stickhandling, when Drai gets up to speed he is prob even faster.

 

[yababy]

No, nothing could have won McDavid the Hart given how the Oilers don't have a legitimate roster to make the playoffs. Oilers have McDavid then big gap, Drai, then big gap, RNH and that's it. And then you have a couple of decent D. The team is absolute garbage.

I'm sad the say you're probably correct. Except there is a big drop after Mcdavid for anyone else in the league.

Oilers are about 3 years away from being a powerhouse, assuming the GM does not trade any player and builds through the draft

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Good night. It was fun arguing with you guys.

I understand what you have to say and I respect it.

But IMHO, only time will tell ----- a player like Marner and Draisaitl are so close, that you can't use stats or the god forbid '' eye test '' to deter whose better.

Hey wait, just wondering why you haven't replied to me yet. Do you agree Schmaltz > Marner then?

 

[2legit2quit]

The POINTS/60 (PK ADJUSTED) show that they can product the same amount of POINTS even when Marner produces less than Draisaitl @5v5 and when Draisaitl produces less than Marner @powerplay

• My argument is merely that ------ Marner out produces Draisaitl on the Power Play so much that:
• It counter-acts his SLIGHT DIS-ADVANTAGE @ Even Strength that Draisaitl has over him

How is it so hard for you Oilers fans to understand the point I'm making??

Are you all illiterate?

You sound exactly like a franchise that has been bottom feeding, and, receiving #1 Draft Picks for the past 10 years, and, still, completely fecal matter.

I understand how important it is for you guys to "BELIEVE'' that Draisaitl > Marner -------- because you have nothing else to lean on (other than McDavid), you have been bottom feeding / receiving 1st overall picks for the past 10 years and not amounting to squat.. I understand. No worries.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

We both know that’s not true and when stats come out proving it you Oilers fans run and hide until folks forget it. The reality is besides a nice little playoff run last year good old Leon has been a slighty above average player at best. His production before McDavid sucked and before you blame those Oilers teams remember...Taylor Hall is likely winning a Hart Trophy all because he got out of Edmonton.

His ES p/60 were above Marner the year before he played with McDavid

 

[McFlyingV]

Draisaitl 672 faceoff wins
Marner 50 faceoff wins

Draisaitl>Marner

Am I doing it right @2legit2quit ?

Draisaitl's +/- compared to the Oilers = -7 vs. -33
Marner's +/- compared to the Leafs = -1 vs. +40

I think I'm getting the hang of this now.

 

[2legit2quit]

It's hillarious how much Oilers fans over-hype their franchise.
I guess this is what happens when you get top 5 picks for the past 11 years and not amount to anything.
They get salty at facts. They HAVE NO (YES I REPEAT, NONE) STATS to back up their claims.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

O.K. --- Where are your Oilers Fans' stats THAT SHOW THAT DRAISAITL > MARNER??

• There are no such stats.
• So please, stop making such statements based off your homerism.

Marner has ONE MORE blocked shot than Draisaitl this season and you’re really bleating about that?

Ok then..

Hits, G/60, ESG/60, ESA/60, FO%, shorthanded goals, short handed points, shootout percentage, and primary points.

Good enough?

 

[2legit2quit]

WHAT STATS ARE YOU BASING ---- Draisaitl > Marner? No stats. Just your saltiness of your failure franchise.

 

[McFlyingV]

The POINTS/60 (PK ADJUSTED) show that they can product the same amount of POINTS even when Marner produces less than Draisaitl @5v5 and when Draisaitl produces less than Marner @powerplay

• My argument is merely that ------ Marner out produces Draisaitl on the Power Play so much that:
• It counter-acts his SLIGHT DIS-ADVANTAGE @ Even Strength that Draisaitl has over him

How is it so hard for you Oilers fans to understand the point I'm making??

Are you all illiterate?

You sound exactly like a franchise that has been bottom feeding, and, receiving #1 Draft Picks for the past 10 years, and, still, completely fecal matter.

I understand how important it is for you guys to "BELIEVE'' that Draisaitl > Marner -------- because you have nothing else to lean on (other than McDavid), you have been bottom feeding / receiving 1st overall picks for the past 10 years and not amounting to squat.. I understand. No worries.

You keep saying slight disadvantage but Draisaitl has 55 EVP in 78 games while Marner has 42EVP in 82 games.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

The POINTS/60 (PK ADJUSTED) show that they can product the same amount of POINTS even when Marner produces less than Draisaitl @5v5 and when Draisaitl produces less than Marner @powerplay

• My argument is merely that ------ Marner out produces Draisaitl on the Power Play so much that:
• It counter-acts his SLIGHT DIS-ADVANTAGE @ Even Strength that Draisaitl has over him

How is it so hard for you Oilers fans to understand the point I'm making??

Are you all illiterate?

You sound exactly like a franchise that has been bottom feeding, and, receiving #1 Draft Picks for the past 10 years, and, still, completely fecal matter.

I understand how important it is for you guys to "BELIEVE'' that Draisaitl > Marner -------- because you have nothing else to lean on (other than McDavid), you have been bottom feeding / receiving 1st overall picks for the past 10 years and not amounting to squat.. I understand. No worries.

The last time your team has gotten past the first round was like 15 years ago. Your franchise has drafted top 10, 10 times out of the last 13. Your franchise has not been to a finals since 1967.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

It's hillarious how much Oilers fans over-hype their franchise.
I guess this is what happens when you get top 5 picks for the past 11 years and not amount to anything.
They get salty at facts. They HAVE NO (YES I REPEAT, NONE) STATS to back up their claims.

What has your team done with all its top picks? You have not even won one series in 13 years.

 

[2legit2quit]

Marner has ONE MORE blocked shot than Draisaitl this season and you’re really bleating about that?

Ok then..

Hits, G/60, ESG/60, ESA/60, FO%, shorthanded goals, short handed points, shootout percentage, and primary points.

Good enough?

Marner is not a center. Does not play on the PK due to team depth (not his fault). Since MARNER is so much better than Draisaitl on the Power Play, it, counteracts Draisaitl's prowess at Even Strength.

Good enough? You are not using ANY STATS to back up your claims that are valid.

 

[McFlyingV]

The last time your team has gotten past the first round was like 15 years ago. Your franchise has drafted top 10, 10 times out of the last 13. Your franchise has not been to a finals since 1967.

If his posts are any indication then chances are he wasn't old enough to remember that.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It's hillarious how much Oilers fans over-hype their franchise.
I guess this is what happens when you get top 5 picks for the past 11 years and not amount to anything.
They get salty at facts. They HAVE NO (YES I REPEAT, NONE) STATS to back up their claims.

............ as a fan of neither team, a quick read through this thread shows that Oilers fans have given you about 10 different stats and arguments to show that you are wrong. Yet you keep saying the same 4 things over and over again, just louder, bolder and with more CAPS.

Is everything Okay?

 

[Avs44]

Whose the better player and whose more valuable?
Who do you think is the better player and has more value? ***EDIT PROVING MARNER>DRAISAITL WITH STATS**

AADVANCED STATS For Marner vs Draisaitl!

Marner: Takeaways = 85; Turnovers = 50; CF% = 59%; FF% = 57%; TOI/GAME: 16:39 ; 3.1 Points/60

Draisaitl: Takeaways = 78; Turnovers = 84; CF% = 53%; FF% = 54%; TOI/GAME: 19:32 ; 3.1 Points/60

How in the world is Draisaitl Outproducing Marner???

I provided stats backing up;

1) Marner > Draisaitl Defensively!
2) Marner = Draisaitl Offensively! ------> Marner = Draisaitl P.60

I'm not going to get into the rest of this debate of who's actually better, but this "proof" is useless.

Takeaways / turnovers are nearly useless. They are completely subjective, and recorded in-house.

Raw corsi is a useless statistic for players on teams that were drastically different, and for players with very different roles. Raw corsi is essentially just +/-. In fact, it's exactly +/-, except with decimals, so for whatever reason people thing it's "advanced." In reality, there's nothing advanced about total shot attempts for, minus total shot attempts against, which is all corsi is. At the very least use relative stats.

Points/60 is one of the most overused / overvalued advanced stats I see people use. For whatever reason some people using it think it's absolutely predictive, and that if a guy with a great points per 60 was given more ice time his point totals would linearly increase - but that's practically never the case. The stat completely ignores the role, usage, competition, line-mates, etc., of players. For limited use I think it's a fine stat provide its contextualized, but there are generally good reasons that coaches give guys the minutes they have, and giving Marner an extra 1.5 minutes of even strength ice time per game, the difference between him and Draisaitl, does not mean his even strength production will linearly increase. Hockey isn't an equation that basic, as much as seem people on this board seem to think it is.

You're running around this thread shooting stats out, but I don't actually think you understand what any of them mean. Using takeaways and turnovers and raw corsi to prove ? sort of indicates that.

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Marner is not a center. Does not play on the PK due to team depth (not his fault). Since MARNER is so much better than Draisaitl on the Power Play, it, counteracts Draisaitl's prowess at Even Strength.

Good enough? You are not using ANY STATS to back up your claims that are valid.

He used actual points you know actual production.
Marner 82 games 69 points
Drai 78 games 70 points.
Buzz off kid your teacher is going to be upset tommorow when you come to school all cranky.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

Connor McDavid doesn't need Leon Draisaitl on his line, so why play them together?

519 even strengh minutes together at the point of that article but Oilers fans will tell you McDavid and Drai don’t ever play together besides the PP. Hilarious....

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Marner is not a center. Does not play on the PK due to team depth (not his fault). Since MARNER is so much better than Draisaitl on the Power Play, it, counteracts Draisaitl's prowess at Even Strength.

Good enough? You are not using ANY STATS to back up your claims that are valid.

Still no reply to my post. That's weird, are you maybe not seeing them for some reason?

 

[2legit2quit]

IN THE LAST 11 YEARS

Oilers have had the Top 10 Pick --- 9 TIMES

And heres the kicker -----------------------------

THEY ARE STILL GOING TO DRAFT TOP 10 THIS YEAR

 

[The List Of Jericho]

His ES p/60 were above Marner the year before he played with McDavid

Was that the rookie campaign with 9 points in almost 40 games?

 

[nbwingsfan]

IN THE LAST 11 YEARS

Oilers have had the Top 10 Pick --- 9 TIMES

And heres the kicker -----------------------------

THEY ARE STILL GOING TO DRAFT TOP 10 THIS YEAR

What does this have to do with anything...?

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Connor McDavid doesn't need Leon Draisaitl on his line, so why play them together?

519 even strengh minutes together at the point of that article but Oilers fans will tell you McDavid and Drai don’t ever play together besides the PP. Hilarious....

Whoever said that is an idiot. They played together about 50% even strength this year. Coach put them together when we needed offense going or when Connor was flat from playing with garbage like Lucic.

 

[2legit2quit]

Still no reply to my post. That's weird, are you maybe not seeing them for some reason?

HOLD ON ---- Draisaitl has 520 MINUTES played with McDavid.

Marner has 5 MINUTES played with MATTHEWS at most!!

It's really funny when you factor in Draisaitl playing with the best player in the world (MCDAVID) FOR 519 MINUTES.

Oh wait. Statistics don't matter ... because ... uh ... oilers don't need stats to show how good someone is. Just believe the Oilers.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Marner is not a center. Does not play on the PK due to team depth (not his fault). Since MARNER is so much better than Draisaitl on the Power Play, it, counteracts Draisaitl's prowess at Even Strength.

Good enough? You are not using ANY STATS to back up your claims that are valid.

You’re calling my stats invalid, but trying to use freaking blocked shots and takeaways to prove something?

Here I’ll tell you what. For 2:12 a game (Marner’s PPTOI) he’s a better player than Draisaitl.

For the remaining 14 ish minutes for him, and 16 ish minutes for Draisaitl, I’ll take Leon all day every day. Easy peasy?