Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVII (continued)

[BoredBrandonPridham]

If Dubas significantly low-balls one of his best players or a player significantly high-balls their organization, it is a very unclassy thing to do.

This isn't unclassy, it's completely normal and usually where negotiations start.

based on some of the things [Marner has] said, he sees himself as a comparable to Matthews

Can you show a single quote from anyone in the Marner camp indicating they think he is a comparable to Matthews, let alone Marner himself?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

If they didn’t draw a line in the sand for Nylander, they won’t for Marner

Marner is slightly different in that the Leafs will need to use LTIR this year, whereas last year they specifically did not use. That means that while Nylander was sitting, the Leafs could accrue the cap-space needed to withstand the in-year inflation that gets applied after an RFA signs in the season.

In Marner's case, the Leafs need to put Horton on LTIR to get him on the roster, which means Horton's space is going to be eating into the accrual of cap-space that would be needed to withstand Marner's in-year inflation from sitting.

A rough estimate would be that for every day Marner sits in the season, the Leafs have ($5.3m / 186 days) = $28,494 less available that they can sign Marner for.

 

[MyBudJT]

Marner is slightly different in that the Leafs will need to use LTIR this year, whereas last year they specifically did not use. That means that while Nylander was sitting, the Leafs could accrue the cap-space needed to withstand the in-year inflation that gets applied after an RFA signs in the season.

In Marner's case, the Leafs need to put Horton on LTIR to get him on the roster, which means Horton's space is going to be eating into the accrual of cap-space that would be needed to withstand Marner's in-year inflation from sitting.

A rough estimate would be that for every day Marner sits in the season, the Leafs have ($5.3m / 186 days) = $28,494 less available that they can sign Marner for.

Except the Leafs can (and should) make a trade to accommodate Marner if it comes to that. You don’t sit one of the best forwards in the game because we are tight to the cap. Once you find a number that works for both parties, you sign him.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Except the Leafs can (and should) make a trade to accommodate Marner if it comes to that. You don’t sit one of the best forwards in the game because we are tight to the cap. Once you find a number that works for both parties, you sign him.

Sure but it's more complicating than the Nylander situation is all.

 

[MyBudJT]

Sure but it's more complicating than the Nylander situation is all.

Right, but that doesn’t mean the Leafs camp will draw a hard line on October first. They already demonstrated with Nylander that they don’t operate that way.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

This isn't unclassy, it's completely normal and usually where negotiations start.



Can you show a single quote from anyone in the Marner camp indicating they think he is a comparable to Matthews, let alone Marner himself?

Exactly. Lll let's start the negotiating process with a higher offer right off the hop so fans and other managers and players around the league dont think I'm unclassy. Gimme a break

 

[disgruntleddave]

Except the Leafs can (and should) make a trade to accommodate Marner if it comes to that. You don’t sit one of the best forwards in the game because we are tight to the cap. Once you find a number that works for both parties, you sign him.

I would expect the same, but the longer this goes on, the higher the risk gets of losing even more value. If we sign him and it is 100% clear that we have to move X amount of space off the roster, other teams will lick their lips and lowball us in that trade. They'll try to get the player we'd prefer not to move instead of the player we want to move, they'll offer less back as well. It pushes us into a corner if it happens, and deeper, the later it happens.

 

[MyBudJT]

I would expect the same, but the longer this goes on, the higher the risk gets of losing even more value. If we sign him and it is 100% clear that we have to move X amount of space off the roster, other teams will lick their lips and lowball us in that trade. They'll try to get the player we'd prefer not to move instead of the player we want to move, they'll offer less back as well. It pushes us into a corner if it happens, and deeper, the later it happens.

It’s a possibility I suppose... however we don’t have any real burdensome contracts at this point, and I think there is demand for our players... with a little bit of a bidding war, we’d get good value.

 

[Confucius]

You trade him well before you sit him.

And that kind of thinking is the problem. Just let him sit out and if a few teams followed there wouldn't be this problem of rfa wanting to get paid like ufa.

 

[Confucius]

Right, but that doesn’t mean the Leafs camp will draw a hard line on October first. They already demonstrated with Nylander that they don’t operate that way.

Hopefully they learned from past experience, most people do.

 

[horner]

Except the Leafs can (and should) make a trade to accommodate Marner if it comes to that. You don’t sit one of the best forwards in the game because we are tight to the cap. Once you find a number that works for both parties, you sign him.

He has to want to sign with that team .
Its like he has a no trade clause.
Trouba wasn't sign and Winnipeg got a shitty deal for him.

 

[MyBudJT]

Hopefully they learned from past experience, most people do.

The only thing the Leafs regret is not coming to an agreement sooner. Nothing indicates that they’re not willing to go through the process again if it’s needed.

He has to want to sign with that team .
Its like he has a no trade clause.
Trouba wasn't sign and Winnipeg got a ****ty deal for him.

I suggested trading a current roster player to accommodate a Marner signing with us...

 

[Sypher04]

Who do you even trade at this point though. There's very little dead weight on this roster. The only possible solution to me is Ceci which leaves a pretty big hole in our right side D.
It seems pretty imperative Marner signs by Oct 2.

 

[Nineteen67]

If Dubas significantly low-balls one of his best players or a player significantly high-balls their organization, it is a very unclassy thing to do.

It is mainly speculation, but I do feel Marner is being outrageous, and based on some of the things he's said, he sees himself as a comparable to Matthews, but they play different positions, and Matthews brings more value to the team. Not to mention, that we haven't seen Matthews at his best yet, while we've seen Marner playing at close to full capacity so far.

Matthews and Marner have slightly different skill sets and bring different qualities to the team, but they are both very valuable players to the Maple Leafs

On the ice he’s proven he (Marner) is as good as Matthews and he’ll get a lot better as well.
I don’t think there is a $2 million difference between the two players.

 

[Sypher04]

On the ice he’s proven he (Marner) is as good as Matthews and he’ll get a lot better as well.
I don’t think there is a $2 million difference between the two players.

I'd say that statement really depends on how you evaluate players, but I don't disagree with the premise that both are similar caliber.
I'd don't necessarily see a $2 million difference either, but as stated many times, center/goalscorer in this league DO get paid more, so I think something in around 10-10.5 seems like a reasonable landing spot to me.

 

[ACC1224]

If Dubas significantly low-balls one of his best players or a player significantly high-balls their organization, it is a very unclassy thing to do.

It is mainly speculation, but I do feel Marner is being outrageous, and based on some of the things he's said, he sees himself as a comparable to Matthews, but they play different positions, and Matthews brings more value to the team. Not to mention, that we haven't seen Matthews at his best yet, while we've seen Marner playing at close to full capacity so far.

Matthews and Marner have slightly different skill sets and bring different qualities to the team, but they are both very valuable players to the Maple Leafs

What has he said?

It would be great if someone could compile all these quotes from Marner, his dad or agent that they've said for reference.
Be nice to know what people are talking about when they refer to them.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Right, but that doesn’t mean the Leafs camp will draw a hard line on October first. They already demonstrated with Nylander that they don’t operate that way.

Why are you pretending like I'm arguing with you.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Bridge

 

[CDN24]

that won't work with us unless he's signing for a Nylander-esque AAV, the inflated 1st year cap hit won't fit for us if it's an $8.5-11M AAV

It gets pro-rated so Nylanders hit while 10.277M onlt counted at 6.96M last year- prorated across the games he was available for. Where it could cause a problem is the 20% max cap hit for one player- not sure if that is calculated on the gross or net number.

Nylanders bump up was 10.277-6.96/6.96 or about 47.6% of his real salary or cap hit. Assume this drags out like Nylander to the last minute and they cave and give him the Matthews contract. 11.634 X 1.476 would give a year 1 number of 17M which is over the limit of 20% of cap max at 16.4M

That would mean that if he drags it out to the absolute deadline, he would have to accept slightly less than Matthews. would be capped at about 11M

 

[Pookie]

And that kind of thinking is the problem. Just let him sit out and if a few teams followed there wouldn't be this problem of rfa wanting to get paid like ufa.

Next CBA has Arbitration rights for ELC expiring players.

Problem solved.

 

[Sypher04]

It gets pro-rated so Nylanders hit while 10.277M onlt counted at 6.96M last year- prorated across the games he was available for. Where it could cause a problem is the 20% max cap hit for one player- not sure if that is calculated on the gross or net number.

Nylanders bump up was 10.277-6.96/6.96 or about 47.6% of his real salary or cap hit. Assume this drags out like Nylander to the last minute and they cave and give him the Matthews contract. 11.634 X 1.476 would give a year 1 number of 17M which is over the limit of 20% of cap max at 16.4M

That would mean that if he drags it out to the absolute deadline, he would have to accept slightly less than Matthews. would be capped at about 11M

LTIR makes this way more complicated than that unfortunately, but let's not rehash all that again.
I think in the end it's best for all parties to have a resolution before Oct 2nd and ideally before training camp.

 

[ShaneFalco]

On the day that saw Auston Matthews handed a hefty five-year contract extension worth north of $58 million, not everyone is getting the impression the team is looking to pay its stars generously.
With Matthews signed, eyes now turn to pending restricted free agent Mitch Marner. Marner's camp has already gone on record stating they will not negotiate a contract in-season. His agent, Darren Ferris, revealed Tuesday that stance is due to a severe undervaluation by the Maple Leafs in prior discussions.
"So far they've been trying to lowball (Marner)," Ferris said, according to Dave Feschuk of the Toronto Star. "That's the reason we've come to this point."
Unlike recent deals signed by Matthews and William Nylander, Ferris said the club has asked Marner to meet it halfway on a team-friendly pact.
"Nobody else is taking a discount. And now you're asking (Marner) to take one again? It's nonsense," Ferris said. "Mitch already did them a favor on the entry-level deal."
When Marner signed his entry-level contract, his camp was told it was team policy not to hand out schedule B bonuses to players, according to Ferris. Just over a year after Marner signed, however, Matthews agreed to a contract that included them.

Marner's agent says Leafs have lowballed him in contract talks

S

ince this claim, Dave Feschuk says that Ferris misspoke on the radio and that the comments weren’t from the summer, but he was instead referring to events in the summer.
Ferris went on to explain that he understands that negotiations always start this way and that he has no doubt that “Mitch is going to be a Leaf for a long time”. Still, the question remains about whether or not Mitch Marner feels underappreciated in Toronto and to that, Ferris’ first response says a lot.
“I guess time will tell, right?”

This makes sense when combined with Bob McKenzie’s report that Marner feels as though he is worth just as much as Matthews, because whether or not he feels underappreciated will fully depend on what dollar amount his contract ends up at when this is all said and done.

https://www.bardown.com/mitch-marne...is-lowball-quote-about-negotiations-1.1253136

“I’ll just be honest with you,” Paul Marner said. “It drives our family nuts when we hear you guys all talk about who should be the captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs and Mitch never hardly gets any consideration. It’s because he’s like this happy-go-lucky little kid. But he championed the London Knights to the Memorial Cup with that same happy (personality). I watched a guy like Doug Gilmour who had a lot of joy on and off the ice but was a real competitor.
“And that’s Mitch.”

Marner’s agent tries to put out fire from Maple Leafs ‘lowball’ comments

“Mitch will get what Mitch is due. But as far as the Maple Leafs, it’s up to them how they value him. If it works out with them, it works out,” Ferris said. “We’ll see at the end of the year what their position is and whether they’re motivated to sign Mitch or not. It’s totally up to them.”

Maple Leafs have lowballed Mitch Marner in contract talks, agent says | The Star




Those are a few. Then add in all the Marner-camp-fed Dreger tweets
Choosing Dreger of all people to be your mouthpiece is like choosing to swim in sewage

​

 

[Randy Randerson]

It gets pro-rated so Nylanders hit while 10.277M onlt counted at 6.96M last year- prorated across the games he was available for. Where it could cause a problem is the 20% max cap hit for one player- not sure if that is calculated on the gross or net number.

Nylanders bump up was 10.277-6.96/6.96 or about 47.6% of his real salary or cap hit. Assume this drags out like Nylander to the last minute and they cave and give him the Matthews contract. 11.634 X 1.476 would give a year 1 number of 17M which is over the limit of 20% of cap max at 16.4M

That would mean that if he drags it out to the absolute deadline, he would have to accept slightly less than Matthews. would be capped at about 11M

we also only have around $10.5M to work with, so that's the real constraint. Even if there were an injury or two I don't see us getting anywhere near the $16.3M player cap

 

[ajp4to]

Yeah.
Of everything, I'd prefer Marner at fair market value. That's by far what I want to see the most. The 1-2 punch of Tavares/Marner and Matthews/Nylander barely even happened last year, and I look forward to seeing it.

But the leafs are facing a problem where they have to pay all of their players far above market value. They NEED to end that. Even if it means losing Marner.

If he won't accept fair market value based on Dubas's previous dramatic overpayments, then I sort of understand. If his pride matters that much, just take the 4 picks (or equivalence through trade), set the VERY important precedent that the dramatic overpayments are DONE, and use the cap space on polishing up the D for next year.

You have to have a team willing to give up those picks for the privilege of overpaying Marner. I would be surprised if there was one out there.

 

[horner]

The only thing the Leafs regret is not coming to an agreement sooner. Nothing indicates that they’re not willing to go through the process again if it’s needed.



I suggested trading a current roster player to accommodate a Marner signing with us...

Ok