Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XV (continued)

[Notsince67]

MORE THAN ENOUGH evidence has been provided to show that Marner DOES NOT drive his line. Therefor he does not stir the drink.

You mean other than having the highest shot contribution on the team?

 

[AustrianHockeyfan]

Not realistic but just hypothetical... Would you do something like Marner and Liljegren for Dahlin and Risto?

 

[DarkKnight]

MORE THAN ENOUGH evidence has been provided to show that Marner DOES NOT drive his line. Therefor he does not stir the drink.

Lol, what are you watching.

 

[ajp4to]

Eh. Gaudreau signed in 2016 after missing camp and 3-5 games I believe.

It's preferable, but yeah September 15th is probably the first major deadline (17th is the first preseason game).

2 months should be enough to get a deal done

Yet Marner wants 3+ million more than Gaudreau, when was the last time Marner outscored Gaudreau?

 

[Cleetus]

Nylander is worth every penny on his contract... marner is also worth 10+ without question.

so he got paid 10 million dollars in year one and produced a whopping 27 points, yea not even close to being good enough....

 

[HamiltonNHL]

So his button hooks just inside the blueline and passes to the other team didn't impress you. Didn't impress any other GM either. There is a reason Kadri was traded instead of Nylander. No other team would have given the leafs anything for Nylander.

I'm not trading him at his lowest.

His stocks will rise.

 

[ajp4to]

I'm not trading him at his lowest.

His stocks will rise.

Not to worry, no other team would take him for free at his cap hit.

 

[SniperOnTheWing]

Yet Marner wants 3+ million more than Gaudreau, when was the last time Marner outscored Gaudreau?

If Gaudreau had held out for more maybe he wouldn't be so underpaid. Examples like that are exactly why RFAs are playing hardball nowadays. Nobody wants to be the next Gaudreau, MacKinnon, Barkov, etc who sign for ''market value'' at the time then go on to put up 90+ point seasons and make less money than 55pt Kevin Hayes.

You think it helps our argument vs Marner but in reality it helps Marner's argument vs us because he put up the 90+ number BEFORE his ELC was up.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

Not realistic but just hypothetical... Would you do something like Marner and Liljegren for Dahlin and Risto?

Dahlin in an instant. He might end up one of the best of all time. Buffalo would trade him for McDavid but probably nothing else would suffice.

 

[Kiwi]

And you think either Calgary or Colorado would have offered TO what they did for Nylander? Calgary would be paying close to Gaudreau and more then Monahan, and Colorado pay him more then Mckinnon and Landeskog? Not a chance...

In a heartbeat

 

[Nineteen67]

Not realistic but just hypothetical... Would you do something like Marner and Liljegren for Dahlin and Risto?

Yes. No one even knows if Liljegren will ever play in the NHL.

 

[Dough72]

Lol, what are you watching.

guessing analytics. The ones put together by random fans on their blogs using heat maps which some fans believe are very accurate portrayals of reality. And seem unaware the old super-important stat models were pretty much all discredited given enough time. I still remember when Mathews returned from his injury this year he played well for a couple games but then proceeded to blatantly stink for about 8 in a row. But since he scored a bunch the first 2 games back and then must have had a couple bounce off his skates into the net or whatever because his bulk stats were actually still pretty good. Fans who rely on analytics to tell them what they're watching were dead certain he was playing terrific. Fans who trust their own knowledge of what they're watching thought Matthews was really struggling. Like a day later Matthews had an interview and he said he was frustrated because he was really struggling. That's fan analytics in a nutshell to me.

 

[thewave]

Yes. No one even knows if Liljegren will ever play in the NHL.

My eyes say he will. I trust them.

 

[DarkKnight]

guessing analytics. The ones put together by random fans on their blogs using heat maps which some fans believe are very accurate portrayals of reality. And seem unaware the old super-important stat models were pretty much all discredited given enough time. I still remember when Mathews returned from his injury this year he played well for a couple games but then proceeded to blatantly stink for about 8 in a row. But since he scored a bunch the first 2 games back and then must have had a couple bounce off his skates into the net or whatever because his bulk stats were actually still pretty good. Fans who rely on analytics to tell them what they're watching were dead certain he was playing terrific. Fans who trust their own knowledge of what they're watching thought Matthews was really struggling. Like a day later Matthews had an interview and he said he was frustrated because he was really struggling. That's fan analytics in a nutshell to me.

Those geniuses should go look at Tavares 10 year career, and note the eye popping uptick in even strength points this year. Some of the same brainiacs who use a three year career for a kid, cling to stats from the first half of 2017, simultaneously IGNORE the fact that 10 year pro JT bested his career high in even strength goals by 12. Marner mirrored Matthews 5 v 5 production per 60 this year. Thank god Marner and JT didn’t have big PP years (JT has had several better) or Marner’s ask would be harder to deny.

As an aside, there is something seriously wrong with your perspective when you’re tearing apart a player who’s done nothing but grow and excel, in all facets of the game. It’s like they’ve taken one too many pucks to the face blocking shot

Find another hobby.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Those geniuses should go look at Tavares 10 year career, and note the eye popping uptick in even strength points this year. Some of the same brainiacs who use a three year career for a kid, cling to stats from the first half of 2017, simultaneously IGNORE the fact that 10 year pro JT bested his career high in even strength goals by 12. Marner mirrored Matthews 5 v 5 production per 60 this year. Thank god Marner and JT didn’t have big PP years (JT has had several better) or Marner’s ask would be harder to deny.

As an aside, there is something seriously wrong with your perspective when you’re tearing apart a player who’s done nothing but grow and excel, in all facets of the game. It’s like they’ve taken one too many pucks to the face

Find another hobby.

There is no eye popping uptick in 5v5 production this year, at least compared to his other best seasons. If you want a real eye opening uptick, look at Marner's previous career best

 

[DarkKnight]

JT career high 5 v 5 goals in his previous nine seasons 25...this year 37. JT career high 5 v 5 points in his previous nine seasons 56...this year 69. Yep, nothing to see there.

 

[Nineteen67]

My eyes say he will. I trust them.

Your eyes haven’t seen him play, yet. Although the league is trending in a such a way that boys like Pettersson can excel before they’re grown. so probably he will be able to play.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

JT career high 5 v 5 goals in his previous nine seasons 25...this year 37. JT career high 5 v 5 points in his previous nine seasons 56...this year 69. Yep, nothing to see there.

Tavares in 14/15: 5th in 5v5 points
Tavares in 18/19: 5th in 5v5 points

Marner in 17/18: 65th in 5v5 points
Marner in 18/19: 8th in 5v5 points

(mod) The big leap in production isn't from Tavares

 

[HolyCrap]

JT career high 5 v 5 goals in his previous nine seasons 25...this year 37. JT career high 5 v 5 points in his previous nine seasons 56...this year 69. Yep, nothing to see there.

Yup. That’s why Marner is worth way more than any player in the history of hockey. He is better than McDavid. Pay him what he wants and when leafs don’t win cup blame Dubas.

 

[Notsince67]

JT career high 5 v 5 goals in his previous nine seasons 25...this year 37. JT career high 5 v 5 points in his previous nine seasons 56...this year 69. Yep, nothing to see there.

The underlying issue is that people here dont seem to understand some basic concepts. What is production and what does it mean to drive a line.
Marner clearly being carried as a line driver

In case anyone doubts the quality

 

[DarkKnight]

Tavares in 14/15: 5th in 5v5 points
Tavares in 18/19: 5th in 5v5 points

Marner in 17/18: 65th in 5v5 points
Marner in 18/19: 8th in 5v5 points

Try to learn about league scoring rates so you can make a smart argument next time. The big leap in production isn't from Tavares

What a farce.

 

[DarkKnight]

The underlying issue is that people here dont seem to understand some basic concepts. What is production and what does it mean to drive a line.
Marner clearly being carried as a line driver

View attachment 244723

In case anyone doubts the quality

View attachment 244721

To some it doesn’t matter....obviously.

 

[DarkKnight]

Yup. That’s why Marner is worth way more than any player in the history of hockey. He is better than McDavid. Pay him what he wants and when leafs don’t win cup blame Dubas.

Man, you just went off on your own little tangent there, that has zero to do with anything discussed. Up your game dude, that’s embarrassing.

 

[Notsince67]

Tavares in 14/15: 5th in 5v5 points
Tavares in 18/19: 5th in 5v5 points

Marner in 17/18: 65th in 5v5 points
Marner in 18/19: 8th in 5v5 points

Try to learn about league scoring rates so you can make a smart argument next time. The big leap in production isn't from Tavares

Tavares in 18/19: 4th in Primary Points in 5x5
Marner in 18/19: 1st in Primary Points in 5x5

Try again

 

[moon111]

Those geniuses should go look at Tavares 10 year career, and note the eye popping uptick in even strength points this year. Some of the same brainiacs who use a three year career for a kid, cling to stats from the first half of 2017, simultaneously IGNORE the fact that 10 year pro JT bested his career high in even strength goals by 12. Marner mirrored Matthews 5 v 5 production per 60 this year. Thank god Marner and JT didn’t have big PP years (JT has had several better) or Marner’s ask would be harder to deny.

As an aside, there is something seriously wrong with your perspective when you’re tearing apart a player who’s done nothing but grow and excel, in all facets of the game. It’s like they’ve taken one too many pucks to the face blocking shot

Find another hobby.

The issue I have with Marner to Tavares is that sure it worked during regular pond season hockey games against teams that weren't paying attention, but take teams that take the time to draw up any type of strategy against their opponents all know all to well: Marner to Tavares. Tie up the goal-scorer, let the goalie handle Marner. You won't stop Tavares and Marner completely, but you can score more goals then they do with some talented players that can identify their strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly. It's why Nylander to Matthews fell flat. Matthews needed the experience to play the puck more to diversify his resume. Now if you can make Marner become a goal-scoring threat, then you have something what's being asked salary-wise.