Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XV (continued)

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Nithoniniel

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Sep 7, 2012
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"Refute the actual arguments" lol

Is that why you cant reply to my earlier post about why aho is a bad comparable for nylander?

Or who your 10 chosen comparables are?

Or if you also think aho is a bad comparable for marner?
Why did you take that personally? It had nothing to do with you, since you are not dismissing people who make arguments you don't like as fanboys with an agenda? Surely you understand that my position is not "you need to respond to every argument made", it is that ad hominem arguments is what people use when they run out of actual arguments.

Aho is a bad comparable because there are many more who are significantly closer to Nylander's resume. The closest ten are those with the most similar statistical case as of an Athletic's article. Here's the link: Mirtle: Revisiting the question of what's truly a fair...

I'm pretty sure we have already gone full circle on that discussion before though, you and I.

As for Aho and Marner, I don't really know how good of a comparable he is. All I know is that a similar case as to the above was made and resulted in numbers lower than many seem to expect, and the contract Aho (a player that I personally consider to be Marner's equal or close to it) got seemed to support that.

I'll always reply to posters willing to have an honest discussion about things. I stop when I feel people stray from that. I like discussing hockey but I also value my time, and none of us are entitled to answers. But I usually think you are well worth responding to.
 

MattySnipes

Registered User
Jan 26, 2018
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His takes are horrific.
They very well could be. Don't know the guy.

The post I attached is not a take of any sort. He is simply responding to the article one of you posted in this thread mentioning playmakers are more valuable than goalscorers and how apparently AM34 is nothing more than a trigger man, while Marner is a 66/99. Are you kidding me?

All those claims he says, "without any actual data to back any of it up."
 

MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
7,429
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Why did you take that personally? It had nothing to do with you, since you are not dismissing people who make arguments you don't like as fanboys with an agenda? Surely you understand that my position is not "you need to respond to every argument made", it is that ad hominem arguments is what people use when they run out of actual arguments.

Aho is a bad comparable because there are many more who are significantly closer to Nylander's resume. The closest ten are those with the most similar statistical case as of an Athletic's article. Here's the link: Mirtle: Revisiting the question of what's truly a fair...

I'm pretty sure we have already gone full circle on that discussion before though, you and I.

As for Aho and Marner, I don't really know how good of a comparable he is. All I know is that a similar case as to the above was made and resulted in numbers lower than many seem to expect, and the contract Aho (a player that I personally consider to be Marner's equal or close to it) got seemed to support that.

I'll always reply to posters willing to have an honest discussion about things. I stop when I feel people stray from that. I like discussing hockey but I also value my time, and none of us are entitled to answers. But I usually think you are well worth responding to.

Except for you apparently block ones that you disagree with ;)
 
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ajp4to

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Jul 31, 2015
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If Marner gets an offer sheet for more than Aho from some dumbass GM and he moves on, Marner's point total will go the way of Barzel's totals.
 

MattySnipes

Registered User
Jan 26, 2018
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@rielledup

"Also, when can you think of another example where a great player who is supposedly carrying or inflating a lesser players numbers actually ends up with less points than that player? It never works that way."

While you may be right that it doesn't happen that often we are talking about 6 total points. Marner with 94. Tavares with 88. On top, it's less than 6 points because Marner got 3 of those points short-handed without JT.

91 vs. 88?

I won't say Marner is a lesser player and has to be carried. He is a great player with some flaws like any player and playing with JT definitely helped his totals.

On the flip side JT playing with a quality player like Mitch helped him too a bit. One player doesn't HAVE TO make another player better. In some cases they both make each other better, if that makes sense.
 

81Leafs50

Registered User
May 14, 2010
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Toronto
Just another reason Marner will never get Matthews money.....


D_Ith2RXsAA-y82.jpg
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
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The Naki
Just another reason Marner will never get Matthews money.....


D_Ith2RXsAA-y82.jpg

Those are some lofty goal scoring numbers, he's a unicorn for centers over the last 15 years goal scoring wise

SOOooo he did get a sheet or no?

Doesn't sound like it, that's an issue if one of your major strategies as leverage in negotiations was to threaten an offersheet though
 
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Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
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He played sheltered minutes behind Tavares, and on the power play with him. 85 last year with Tavares, 62 this year without.
If you want tos say the second line is sheltered, go for it. You understand how many minutes are played at even strength right?
 

ajp4to

Registered User
Jul 31, 2015
203
62
If you want tos say the second line is sheltered, go for it. You understand how many minutes are played at even strength right?
Well, why the sudden point total dropoff? He was carrying first-line responsibility this year with more minutes and opportunities, just like Marner will be expected to do on another team. Will he have a Tarveras as his centre, will he have a Matthews to take up the other teams top players? Not likely...
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
15,958
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Those are some lofty goal scoring numbers, he's a unicorn for centers over the last 15 years goal scoring wise



Doesn't sound like it, that's an issue if one of your major strategies as leverage in negotiations was to threaten an offersheet though
Comparible to Ovi? I figure he was more valuable because he is a center....right? Isnt that what you said?
Love the Gretzky comparison too. Lets forget Gretzky started pro at 17.
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,773
They very well could be. Don't know the guy.

The post I attached is not a take of any sort. He is simply responding to the article one of you posted in this thread mentioning playmakers are more valuable than goalscorers and how apparently AM34 is nothing more than a trigger man, while Marner is a 66/99. Are you kidding me?

All those claims he says, "without any actual data to back any of it up."

The article makes it seem like guys like Marner are so rare, yet guys like Matthews are common, when he mentions the same number of current NHL playmakers (Crosby and McDavid) as he does current NHL goal scorers (Stamkos and Ovechkin).

And at the very end, when it says whether you would prefer Hull over Oates, Ovechkin over Crosby, etc., I also found that ironic... Because while they think you should take the creative playmaker, the real answer to that question is you take the center who is capable of scoring goals and making plays... Which is exactly what Matthews is.
 
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Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
15,958
11,153
Well, why the sudden point total dropoff? He was carrying first-line responsibility this year with more minutes and opportunities, just like Marner will be expected to do on another team. Will he have a Tarveras as his centre, will he have a Matthews to take up the other teams top players? Not likely...
The dropoff was because they were told to play proper hockey instead of run and gun when JT was there. The team learned to play better defensively and that comes at a cost.
 
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