Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread - Who ordered a taxi?

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheDoldrums

Registered User
May 3, 2016
12,214
18,241
Kanada
I know this is a bit of an unpopular opinion in this thread but I just feel some people are over compensating for the Liljegren hate in the mainstream media.

You're not wrong that its an unpopular opinion here. The gap between this boards perception of Liljegren and basically everyone elses is a canyon.

Last year Sandin and Robertson were often ranked in the top 25 of all prospects in the sport while Liljegren wasn't on lists but this board will gaslight you into thinking you're crazy for having them significantly ahead of him.

You actually have people here putting him in the top 4 next season, it's insane. The organization has consistently had Sandin ahead of him on the depth chart. At this point there's no indication they believe in Liljegren as a NHL player. They based their expansion draft strategy on keeping their top 4 intact, their ice time distribution makes it clear they basically only trust 4 guys to play big minutes. Dermott has crushed bottom pair assignments for years, he's far ahead of Liljegren as a player at this point and they still don't trust him lol. Barring multiple injuries Liljegren is not going to have any kind of significant role on this team.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
You're not wrong that its an unpopular opinion here. The gap between this boards perception of Liljegren and basically everyone elses is a canyon.

Last year Sandin and Robertson were often ranked in the top 25 of all prospects in the sport while Liljegren wasn't on lists but this board will gaslight you into thinking you're crazy for having them significantly ahead of him.

You actually have people here putting him in the top 4 next season, it's insane. The organization has consistently had Sandin ahead of him on the depth chart. At this point there's no indication they believe in Liljegren as a NHL player. They based their expansion draft strategy on keeping their top 4 intact, their ice time distribution makes it clear they basically only trust 4 guys to play big minutes. Dermott has crushed bottom pair assignments for years, he's far ahead of Liljegren as a player at this point and they still don't trust him lol. Barring multiple injuries Liljegren is not going to have any kind of significant role on this team.

yeah I disagree. Lilly was fantastic in all aspects in the AHL this past year, at age 21. His skating and size are far ahead of both Robertson's and Sandin's as well.

There were bonus issues which made calling Lilly up a little tricker last year than the others, and of course there was very little need to call anyone up last year given how healthy our D was and how well they played.

That being said, Sandin's usage has been and may again be accelerated due to trying specifically to help out our struggling PP.
 

VanW27

Registered User
Jun 9, 2003
4,737
1,480
Canada
You're not wrong that its an unpopular opinion here. The gap between this boards perception of Liljegren and basically everyone elses is a canyon.

Last year Sandin and Robertson were often ranked in the top 25 of all prospects in the sport while Liljegren wasn't on lists but this board will gaslight you into thinking you're crazy for having them significantly ahead of him.

You actually have people here putting him in the top 4 next season, it's insane. The organization has consistently had Sandin ahead of him on the depth chart. At this point there's no indication they believe in Liljegren as a NHL player. They based their expansion draft strategy on keeping their top 4 intact, their ice time distribution makes it clear they basically only trust 4 guys to play big minutes. Dermott has crushed bottom pair assignments for years, he's far ahead of Liljegren as a player at this point and they still don't trust him lol. Barring multiple injuries Liljegren is not going to have any kind of significant role on this team.
I mean, I think you're right and pretty much everything you say is true.

That said, I still believe in Liljegren - but see 2 very big problems with him getting a proper shot.
1. As you say they seem to love Sandin, love his smarts and love his ability with the puck on his stick. But should they? He's a terrible skater and undersized, he was completely exposed on both fronts against Montreal. You could make a pretty good case we win each of the first 5 games of the series with Dermott in the lineup over Sandin.
2. It's very difficult finding a good fit on the bottom pair based on what we have. Dermott is clearly the best right now but he doesn't PK or provide toughness which we sorely need. So if the bottom pair LD is Dermott (or Sandin) I don't see where you fit in Liljegren.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
I mean, I think you're right and pretty much everything you say is true.

That said, I still believe in Liljegren - but see 2 very big problems with him getting a proper shot.
1. As you say they seem to love Sandin, love his smarts and love his ability with the puck on his stick. But should they? He's a terrible skater and undersized, he was completely exposed on both fronts against Montreal. You could make a pretty good case we win each of the first 5 games of the series with Dermott in the lineup over Sandin.
2. It's very difficult finding a good fit on the bottom pair based on what we have. Dermott is clearly the best right now but he doesn't PK or provide toughness which we sorely need. So if the bottom pair LD is Dermott (or Sandin) I don't see where you fit in Liljegren.

imo lilly should be the clear favorite on the right side. dermott on the right isn't as good as on the left. Lilly is also a natural fit for the right side of the second PK pair.

dermott vs. sandin on the left is a bit trickier, as dermott is likely more dependable at even strength. But Sandin is probably needed on the PP.
 

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,685
33,004
yeah I disagree. Lilly was fantastic in all aspects in the AHL this past year, at age 21. His skating and size are far ahead of both Robertson's and Sandin's as well.

There were bonus issues which made calling Lilly up a little tricker last year than the others, and of course there was very little need to call anyone up last year given how healthy our D was and how well they played.

That being said, Sandin's usage has been and may again be accelerated due to trying specifically to help out our struggling PP.
Yup. Many people just speculate false stuff about Liljegren. Here is what we know for sure.
2 main insiders in Bob before he semi retired and Elliotte after the deadline said Leafs told teams Liljegren isn't available in trades. Bob even said Leafs felt Liljegren outplayed Sandin the AHL by a wide margin. So clearly they believe in him and Dubas's comments pretty much said he can take hold of a spot this season.
The bonus thing is true and thats been mentioned before as well.
 

daethfromabove1979

Registered User
Jun 20, 2006
2,208
556
You're not wrong that its an unpopular opinion here. The gap between this boards perception of Liljegren and basically everyone elses is a canyon.

Last year Sandin and Robertson were often ranked in the top 25 of all prospects in the sport while Liljegren wasn't on lists but this board will gaslight you into thinking you're crazy for having them significantly ahead of him.

You actually have people here putting him in the top 4 next season, it's insane. The organization has consistently had Sandin ahead of him on the depth chart. At this point there's no indication they believe in Liljegren as a NHL player. They based their expansion draft strategy on keeping their top 4 intact, their ice time distribution makes it clear they basically only trust 4 guys to play big minutes. Dermott has crushed bottom pair assignments for years, he's far ahead of Liljegren as a player at this point and they still don't trust him lol. Barring multiple injuries Liljegren is not going to have any kind of significant role on this team.

100%, this board wants to believe Lilly is an elite prospect and that he’s too good for the AHL and deserves to be a full time Leaf, I don’t see it though. Sandin at least looks very confident in the NHL when Lilly hasn’t shown anything yet.
 

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,685
33,004
100%, this board wants to believe Lilly is an elite prospect and that he’s too good for the AHL and deserves to be a full time Leaf, I don’t see it though. Sandin at least looks very confident in the NHL when Lilly hasn’t shown anything yet.
Thats fine but his performance suggests he has outgrown the AHL, and yes he is an elite prospect.
I'm sure if Lilly made a fancy pass, people would think he has shown something. Just because you aren't noticable doesn't mean they haven't done anything.
 

daethfromabove1979

Registered User
Jun 20, 2006
2,208
556
Thats fine but his performance suggests he has outgrown the AHL, and yes he is an elite prospect.
I'm sure if Lilly made a fancy pass, people would think he has shown something. Just because you aren't noticable doesn't mean they haven't done anything.

Your standard for an elite prospect must be very low, Lilly is not elite by any means, he wouldn't crack any top 50 prospect lists.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FreeBird

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,685
33,004
Your standard for an elite prospect must be very low, Lilly is not elite by any means, he wouldn't crack any top 50 prospect lists.
The main stream scouting people has always downgraded him despite his improvement and numbers in the AHL. Lists don't paint an accurate picture. He's pretty close to being an elite prospect if he isn't one in the tier of Robertson and Sandin.
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,546
15,413
London, ON
Your standard for an elite prospect must be very low, Lilly is not elite by any means, he wouldn't crack any top 50 prospect lists.

If a top-50 prospect list is your definition of an "elite prospect" then your standard must be very low.

It's not like anyone actually thinks he's going to be an elite point producing defenseman. What the crowd of people (including me) think he can be at the next level is similar to what he is right now in the AHL. A defenseman that drives play offensively and defensively, with a fantastic transition ability. It's why I personally have his ceiling as a #2, and I believe his floor is of a #5 defenseman, in a similar vein to what Dermott brings today.
 

aingefan

Registered User
Feb 27, 2008
4,637
2,538
What @Morgs said.
I think the chance to play with Muzzin would really help his development.
Muzz loves him, so he’d be invested. He plays how Lili is trying to.
It seems a perfect merge.
And Dermott/Holl has already shown itself to be a very solid pairing.
 

LaPlante94

Registered User
Apr 12, 2011
6,796
3,032
Your standard for an elite prospect must be very low, Lilly is not elite by any means, he wouldn't crack any top 50 prospect lists.

Idk about you, but a guy who will most likely be a pretty damn good top 4 D man in the NHL would crack any persons top 50 prospects list and if they don't then I would like to try out what they are smoking just for the experience. You really think a d man prospect who can penalty kill, play top unit PP, can skate, has good hands, can make good breakout passes and basically everything you want from your top 4 d men wouldn't crack a top 50 prospects list?
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheGoldenJet

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,685
33,004
This is my end of the year prospect breakdown. I will start at the bottom at #20 and make my way to the top. There will be a separate post for every prospect. I will try to make one daily. By my criteria, Liljegren and Sandin are still prospects so they will be included in this one. I will also be revealing who I feel took the biggest step, dropped the most, and most underrated prospect and so on.
New info is bolded.
#13. W. Semyon Der-Arguchintsev
LYR: 7

Overview
We are now at one of the most interesting prospects in the system. I thought about SDA at 6, but he stayed at 7 because while his upside is higher, the next player is closer to the NHL. SDA was drafted in 2018 which was Dubas’s first draft as Leafs GM. Leafs drafted SDA 76th overall, and was also the youngest player in the draft. Leafs got this pick after trading down from 25th overall to receive the 29th pick and this pick. In his draft year, SDA had decent production for such a young with the Petes of the OHL. He followed that up with a great developmental, rookie and training camp, where he earned himself a surprising ELC from the team. He really enamoured himself with his youthful energy and excitement. However, his post draft year was more than just a disappointment, and he didn’t look like the same player as before. This season he once again was great in all 3 camps, and he followed it up with a great season with the Petes where he was an elite playmaker he is known for. With Covid delaying things in the AHL, SDA decided to head over to the KHL. This was going to be a huge step for him and there was a decent chance his kind of player would struggle. He ended up handling things very well surprisingly. After his season was over in the KHL, he played a few games with the Marlies and handled himself well there too. With the AHL expected to get back to normal, SDA will play full time. There are still questions of how his kind of player will look in pro hockey, but his start was promising in 2 good leagues.

Stats
2019/2020
OHL
GP: 55
Goals: 12
Assists: 63
Points: 75
Rating: +11
2020/2021
KHL
GP: 17
Goals: 2
Assists: 4
Points: 6
Rating: -1/
Shots: 29
AHL
GP: 6
Goals: 0
Assists: 4
Points: 4
Rating: -2
Shots: 6
Statistical Analysis
SDA had 51 points in 68 games in his draft year, so his production in his D+1 actually got worse in terms of PPG. When comparing even strength primary primary points, that also took a decent hit. In his draft year, it was 0.279, and his D+1 draft year it decreased to 0.241. His shot rate increased but it only went up 1.60 so nothing to talk about. He was terrible last season, and he also didn’t shoot, so it really put a damper on his NHL chances. He played a few games for the Growlers after the season where he looked good from reports. Forward to this season, and he was a different player and was more of the player from old. He was 3rd in the league in assists, and while some of the might have to do playing with Robertson, he still was fantastic, and talking to Petes fans this season, SDA was really good. His ES primary points rose to 0.49, pretty much doubling his rate from last year. He also shot more but it’s again still low at 2.15 S/GP. His goals doubled as well to 12 goals which again is too low to give you confidence about his NHL chances. We don’t know what happened in his D+1, but he was great in 19/20 . SDA was solidly productive in the KHL. 6 in 17 may not seem great, but he was hit by a length injury at the wrong time when he had better numbers. At the time of his month long injury, he had 5 points in 10 games and was playing really well. He was handling the step up well which was a pleasant surprise. He had just under 2 shots a game. 4 of his points came at ES. After his team was eliminated in the playoffs, he went to the Marlies and played well there as well. 3 of his 4 points came on the PP. He was productive in 2 good leagues, but a full season next year will be telling in the AHL.

Talent Analysis
Breakdown of grades:
1- Poor
2- Below average
3- Average
4- Good
5- Great

Player Grades: Present/Future
Skating: 3/3.5
Shot: 2.5/3
Puck Skills: 5/5
Defence: 2.5/3
Compete: 3.5/3.5
IQ/Smarts: 3.5/3.5

His skating is average. There isn’t an explosiveness factor, so he doesn’t really stand out when he skates. As a result, he might not help that much on rushes. I don’t mind his agility honestly, as he can make good fakes and moves against opposing players, but he does lack an extra gear which is not a good thing for a player like him.

Here is the aspect that pretty much drives almost all SDA’s value. He is a true playmaker at the most extreme level. He is one of the best passers not only in the OHL, but all of junior hockey. I might argue he is at worst #3 is terms of best playmakers in the system. He can pass with the best of them, where it’s with creativity, or just solid passes to teammates. His pass usually lands right on the tape of his teammates and he gets it them in the right places. He uses his vision to spot things that some might not see, and is able to get it to his teammate. What also helps with this is his puck handling skills. He can handle the puck in tight spaces, which then opens up options for his team. It’s kind of tough to evaluate his shot since he doesn’t shoot much, but it’s fair to say that’s it not much a weapon.

He does need to work on this aspect which is expected. SDA’s coach in Peterborough Rob Wilson said he showed improvement this season various ways. Where he needs to be off the puck, or just increased back pressure on the opposition. He won’t ever be amazing defensively, but you don’t need to do too much to at least becomes average in this regard

I haven’t seen anything out of the ordinary for his compete, so he gets the 3 as normally prospects do. SDA was competing this season a lot more then last season, so he should be fine. I would say he improved his compete to a 3.5 where last time I had it as a 3. He’s probably still perimeter oriented but he was willing to go in the corners more the season which is a positive.

I give him an above average grade. When you’re as good a playmaker as him, some of that has to do with your IQ and just puck skill. He reads plays well in the offensive zone, and makes the right pass, but a catch with that which really occurred last year, he over handled the puck which took him from a good scoring chance to a less dangerous chance, so I can’t give him a 4, but he has improved in this aspect.

My future projection: A lot of questions for a player like him, and there still are. His performance in 2 good leagues is a good sign, but we need a bigger sample size next year. I feel we will be surprised, but next year might be the deciding factor. This good thing about SDA is he has looked good everywhere except the D+1.
NHL Player? No, based on the history of non goal scorers despite high assists totals, but steps are being taken.
 

Stonehands1990

Registered User
Apr 2, 2021
1,381
1,454
I mean, I think you're right and pretty much everything you say is true.

That said, I still believe in Liljegren - but see 2 very big problems with him getting a proper shot.
1. As you say they seem to love Sandin, love his smarts and love his ability with the puck on his stick. But should they? He's a terrible skater and undersized, he was completely exposed on both fronts against Montreal. You could make a pretty good case we win each of the first 5 games of the series with Dermott in the lineup over Sandin.
2. It's very difficult finding a good fit on the bottom pair based on what we have. Dermott is clearly the best right now but he doesn't PK or provide toughness which we sorely need. So if the bottom pair LD is Dermott (or Sandin) I don't see where you fit in Liljegren.
Very small sample but Dermott played 22:30 on the PK last season with 1 GA. Assuming that’s 11 kills it’s a 91% rate with him on the PK. I don’t think the issue is that he can’t PK it’s just that Muzzin, Holl, Bogo and Brodie were the better 4 options
 

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,685
33,004
Greg Moore.
Lol good to see you changed that. I got confused who Ryan was. I started searching, but yeah he is the biggest question. I think we should have a good team this season even if Liljegren and Sandin graduate.
 

supermann_98

Registered User
May 8, 2002
9,458
7,806
Visit site
100%, this board wants to believe Lilly is an elite prospect and that he’s too good for the AHL and deserves to be a full time Leaf, I don’t see it though. Sandin at least looks very confident in the NHL when Lilly hasn’t shown anything yet.
Sandin's top end skating speed is terrible compared to Lilly's, it terrible compared to most NHL players tbh
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheGoldenJet

LeafsOHLRangers98

Registered User
Jun 13, 2017
6,576
6,723
100%, this board wants to believe Lilly is an elite prospect and that he’s too good for the AHL and deserves to be a full time Leaf, I don’t see it though. Sandin at least looks very confident in the NHL when Lilly hasn’t shown anything yet.
It's hard to show you belong when you don't have a chance.

His age 20 season was amongst the best all time in the AHL and was comparible with Shea Theodore offensively while being our top guy on the PK and defensively 5on 5 as well.

It also wasn't far off of Jake Beans performance that year who was a year older and won AHL defensemen of the year (0.81 PPG at age 21 for Bean, 0.75 PPG at age 20 for Lily).

Liljegren gets a lot of hate in the mainstream media because we-ve actually developed him properly and he's spent all of that time in the AHL but this is a good player.
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,773
It's hard to show you belong when you don't have a chance.

His age 20 season was amongst the best all time in the AHL and was comparible with Shea Theodore offensively while being our top guy on the PK and defensively 5on 5 as well.

It also wasn't far off of Jake Beans performance that year who was a year older and won AHL defensemen of the year (0.81 PPG at age 21 for Bean, 0.75 PPG at age 20 for Lily).

Liljegren gets a lot of hate in the mainstream media because we-ve actually developed him properly and he's spent all of that time in the AHL but this is a good player.

Liljegren did not do himself any favors with an inconsistent 11 game stretch, but it is not like Sandin hasn't been shaky for much of his NHL tenure. At least Liljegren looks ready at the AHL level.

Media is a problem. Especially when guys like Hayes goes on Overdrive thinking he is an expert when it is clear he has not watched a single Marlies game. Fans listen to these guys and think what they say is half way intelligent and informed when they are not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stickty111
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Sydney Swans @ Hawthorn Hawks
    Sydney Swans @ Hawthorn Hawks
    Wagers: 6
    Staked: $6,201.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Inter Milan vs Torino
    Inter Milan vs Torino
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $1,447.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Metz vs Lille
    Metz vs Lille
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $220.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $240.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Bologna vs Udinese
    Bologna vs Udinese
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $265.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad