Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects- Early Off Season time

[93LEAFS]

I did not catch that part. I just heard that he was drafted and had a career to worry about at the time, which would have included Opilka too.

It was a follow-up to Rick Westhead.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It was a follow-up to Rick Westhead.

Well Opilka is a goaltending coach for a low-tier school in the US. It's not a playing career, and it seems like Guest did not say it was a playing career, but it would pretty much end any kind of coaching career he was hoping to have. Possibly could get Opilka kicked out of school as well.

The only thing that I am catching on is that he said the guy was signed, but then kind of took it back and said he just knew he was drafted. I have a inkling that he knew that Opilka was the only one with a contract at the time (Hall never received a contract, Bunnaman and Bracco received theirs at the end of that year after that party happened, and Masherin received his years later from Dallas), and might as well have just said his name (since there are people like us who would fact check and know that Opilka was the only one who was signed at the time, whereas there were 5 teammates who were drafted at the time). So he caught himself and took it back.

I only say that because you have to be a special kind of ***hole to have that kind of attitude. There is a certain level of hazing that exists for rookies in sports, but you can be able to tell who would be the type of player/person who would force a 16 year old to do Cocaine... At least by the time they hit the pro level. I know nothing about Opilka, but I find it really hard to believe Bracco is the type of person who would behave like that, because he would have been torn apart in our organization by now. Opilka never really made it to the pros due to injury.

 

[93LEAFS]

Well Opilka is a goaltending coach for a low-tier school in the US. It's not a playing career, and it seems like Guest did not say it was a playing career, but it would pretty much end any kind of coaching career he was hoping to have. Possibly could get Opilka kicked out of school as well.

The only thing that I am catching on is that he said the guy was signed, but then kind of took it back and said he just knew he was drafted. I have a inkling that he knew that Opilka was the only one with a contract at the time (Hall never received a contract, Bunnaman and Bracco received theirs at the end of that year after that party happened, and Masherin received his years later from Dallas), and might as well have just said his name (since there are people like us who would fact check and know that Opilka was the only one who was signed at the time, whereas there were 5 teammates who were drafted at the time). So he caught himself and took it back.

I only say that because you have to be a special kind of ***hole to have that kind of attitude. There is a certain level of hazing that exists for rookies in sports, but you can be able to tell who would be the type of player/person who would force a 16 year old to do Cocaine... At least by the time they hit the pro level. I know nothing about Opilka, but I find it really hard to believe Bracco is the type of person who would behave like that, because he would have been torn apart in our organization by now. Opilka never really made it to the pros due to injury.

Both Mascherin and Bracco weren't viewed as "good" kids in Kitchener. I heard complaints about both years ago.

I think you are reading too much into what he said there, to try to avoid it being Bracco. I doubt he knows the exact signing dates of each off the top of his head, just who was drafted. I also think you are holding the values of the franchise higher than it actually is. At the end of the day, Bracco was a prospect with value already in the franchise. Tons of NHL teams employ questionable people if they think it gives them an advantage.

 

[LaPlante94]

That's what is floating around. Given what was said, it was a very narrow list of possible players.

Bracco does look like one of those rich kids that does coke. Hope it wasn't him but it doesn't look good.

 

[Lobsterski]

Would explain some of the friction with Bracco during his Rangers tenure.... and now with leave from the Marlies this season. I'm sure the substance stuff probably ran through the room but Bracco did carry that kind of smug untouchable attitude and I wouldn't be shocked if it was him. Regardless of this it looks like he will not live up to his draft pedigree/potential and is already on the outside looking in in our franchise now.

On a side note, sad to say I was a little too critical of Guest during his time with us in Kitchener, hard to forget sometimes that these are kids expected to perform under the pressure of so many different forces working at once. Video got to me a bit when he was talking about going to the psych ward, obviously this kind of behaviour happens behind the scenes with a bunch of franchises but ashamed that this happened in my hometown and one of the more storied Canadian junior teams. I know myself and a few others thought it was a case of someone being thin skinned and taking his ball home, but hearing more about it now it actually sounds like he was truly traumatized and there must be others like him that haven't stepped up.

Kudos to him for telling his story, and trying to get his life back on track.

 

[deletethis]

I'd like to believe it wasn't Bracco but it does seem to have some clues pointing to him as a participant at the very least.

I think most of us have experienced those moments in our youth where we were faced with peers trying to ply their vices on us. These moments are formative for most of us and often regulated to distant memories. It's got to be different for these kids aiming at a pro sports career. It's an existential threat to their ambitions to say no in these situations. Being an outsider on a sports team can kill your career.

My personal opinion is that junior hockey is a broken model for the modern world. It's the perfect unsupervised environment for the paying forward of terrible practises by previously abused individuals.

 

[deletethis]

It's probably worth noting that Guest follows Hall, Mascherin, and Bunnaman on Twitter... but not Bracco...

Doubt you go public and still have the person responsible as one of 106 people you follow

I'm 95% convinced now.

 

[Subway Schenn]

Hope I'm wrong but looks like he was involved - if he was, good riddance.

 

[kb]

I applaud him coming out, but the way he said it.....now there are 5 guys who have reps hat are being tarnished instead of the one who should be punished.

 

[stickty111]

If this Bracco stuff is true, it's bad on him but also Hunter. A red mark for Hunter. He should have done his due diligence before picking him.

 

[deletethis]

If this Bracco stuff is true, it's bad on him but also Hunter. A red mark for Hunter. He should have done his due diligence before picking him.

And Lou for signing him. And Dubas for not moving him .

Then again Keefe's junior days contain some serious reprehensible behaviour.

 

[Martin Skoula]

If this Bracco stuff is true, it's bad on him but also Hunter. A red mark for Hunter. He should have done his due diligence before picking him.

Hunter also wouldn't shut up about how amazing Marner's dad is.

 

[stickty111]

Hunter also wouldn't shut up about how amazing Marner's dad is.

People overrated him so much, calling him such an amazing scout. He isn't what people think he is, and overall didn't do a lot of good in the organization, and the stuff that is coming out is putting him in a bad light. Dubas's drafts look more promising especially with the 2 potential late 1st and 2nd round homeruns in Sandin and Robertson.

 

[Cor]

Well, Rochester won’t be as well coached.

 

[93LEAFS]

If this Bracco stuff is true, it's bad on him but also Hunter. A red mark for Hunter. He should have done his due diligence before picking him.

Maybe not being forced to trade down when he would of taken Koncney and we wouldn't have ended up with Bracco. Which was a significant reason for the dislike between Dubas and Hunter.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Maybe not being forced to trade down when he would of taken Koncney and we wouldn't have ended up with Bracco. Which was a significant reason for the dislike between Dubas and Hunter.

Forced? He had Bracco at #22 on his board, and at the very least had Dermott ranked higher than him too (unless he took a lower ranked guy). Not to mention he was a control freak who demanded control over his board and doing things his way, and could have taken Aho over Dermott and Cirelli over Dzierkals or Bracco. Aho + Cirelli + Bracco >>> Konecny, especially with Nylander and Marner already in the organization at the time (and Kapanen acquired not long after).

Who knows where he had Konecny ranked, but he had at least 2 guys ranked higher than 24 and was able to get both plus another prospect he really liked. If that caused him to have a "dislike" for Dubas, then we should be ecstatic that he is gone, because that is a toxic mess that has no business being in any kind of NHL management group.

 

[93LEAFS]

Forced? He had Bracco at #22 on his board, and at the very least had Dermott ranked higher than him too (unless he took a lower ranked guy). Not to mention he was a control freak who demanded control over his board and doing things his way, and could have taken Aho over Dermott and Cirelli over Dzierkals or Bracco. Aho + Cirelli + Bracco >>> Konecny, especially with Nylander and Marner already in the organization at the time (and Kapanen acquired not long after).

Who knows where he had Konecny ranked, but he had at least 2 guys ranked higher than 24 and was able to get both plus another prospect he really liked. If that caused him to have a "dislike" for Dubas, then we should be ecstatic that he is gone, because that is a toxic mess that has no business being in any kind of NHL management group.

He had Konecny top 15. You are basically mentioning the perfect pick at each spot. Those aren't likely outcomes. And, when someone is given autonomy to run the draft, and then has it undercut for a move they don't agree with, it will cause issues. I've never heard we've had Bracco at 22.

Sometimes the retroactive takes on making the perfect picks here are ridiculous. How many misses were drafted around Aho and Cirelli?

 

[stickty111]

The excuse for Hunter is he was forced? Hunter was the only one responsible for actually picking the players, and Dubas in charge of trades. Hunter picked Bracco which was his decision, and he 100% gets the only blame for that. This just seems like another way to defend Hunter, because he can do no wrong. Hunter did an average job, and news like this makes him look even worse.

 

[stickty111]

Forced? He had Bracco at #22 on his board, and at the very least had Dermott ranked higher than him too (unless he took a lower ranked guy). Not to mention he was a control freak who demanded control over his board and doing things his way, and could have taken Aho over Dermott and Cirelli over Dzierkals or Bracco. Aho + Cirelli + Bracco >>> Konecny, especially with Nylander and Marner already in the organization at the time (and Kapanen acquired not long after).

Who knows where he had Konecny ranked, but he had at least 2 guys ranked higher than 24 and was able to get both plus another prospect he really liked. If that caused him to have a "dislike" for Dubas, then we should be ecstatic that he is gone, because that is a toxic mess that has no business being in any kind of NHL management group.

Yup this is correct. Another way to make excuses for the amazing Hunter.

 

[Byron Bitz]

People talking like they know it was Bracco when it could have easily been Mascherin or Bunanin

 

[93LEAFS]

The excuse for Hunter is he was forced? Hunter was the only one responsible for actually picking the players, and Dubas in charge of trades. Hunter picked Bracco which was his decision, and he 100% gets the only blame for that. This just seems like another way to defend Hunter, because he can do no wrong. Hunter did an average job, and news like this makes him look even worse.

Bracco has probably achieved more than the average 61st pick. I'm not saying he can do no wrong, but you seem to shift all organization mistakes to people from the previous regime. Korshkov isn't looking great and Rasanen looks like a really bad pick. I mean, Dubas has had 2 years to shop Bracco if he's such a terrible person and has held on to him, despite this incident having happened post draft.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

He had Konecny top 15. You are basically mentioning the perfect pick at each spot. Those aren't likely outcomes. And, when someone is given autonomy to run the draft, and then has it undercut for a move they don't agree with, it will cause issues. I've never heard we've had Bracco at 22.

Sometimes the retroactive takes on making the perfect picks here are ridiculous. How many misses were drafted around Aho and Cirelli?

What proof do you have that he had Konecny top 15?

Leafs’ Mark Hunter works hard to find players that make it look easy

There's my proof that he had Bracco at #22, and logic dictates he likely had Dermott even higher than that. So he did not have Dermott that much lower than Konecny obviously.

My point in saying he could have taken Aho or Cirelli over Dermott or Bracco/Dzierkals is that he does not get to act all pissy (if what you are saying is true and this was actually a cause for friction between Hunter and Dubas) for trading down when he had plenty of talent in an extremely deep draft from which to choose. He had two guys ranked higher than 24 that he was able to take by trading down from 24, and had at least two guys who have had great careers thus far as alternatives. It's not suddenly Dubas' fault if Hunter ended up taking the wrong people, or the people Hunter chose did not work out as expected. It may not even really be Hunter's fault, but it certainly is not Dubas' fault. If anything, Dubas did the one smart thing.

Bracco has probably achieved more than the average 61st pick. I'm not saying he can do no wrong, but you seem to shift all organization mistakes to people from the previous regime. Korshkov isn't looking great and Rasanen looks like a really bad pick. I mean, Dubas has had 2 years to shop Bracco if he's such a terrible person and has held on to him, despite this incident having happened post draft.

Well I am certainly not going to make something up to put blame on Dubas. I am not going to look for any random excuse to put blame on Dubas, especially when already blames himself for more of the Leafs' former problems than he should.

At this point, Hunter is just an overhyped scout. He was decent for us, but he was hardly as good as he acted, and if he had the kind of behaviour that you are suggesting, then it was a good thing he decided to leave in a huff. He doesn't get to be a complete control freak over the board and then blame Dubas when it does not work out.

As for Bracco, Dubas could have shopped him. Lou could have also shopped him. Hunter could have also not drafted him. At this point, all you have is speculation that Bracco was even guilty of doing anything, so at this point we still have a guy who was a good pick at 61 and was mostly just stuck in a numbers game, and could still get us something decent back in a trade. Worst case, Leafs lose a pretty good prospect for nothing but hardly anything that really affects their plans going forward.

 

[93LEAFS]

What proof do you have that he had Konecny top 15?

Leafs’ Mark Hunter works hard to find players that make it look easy

There's my proof that he had Bracco at #22, and logic dictates he likely had Dermott even higher than that. So he did not have Dermott that much lower than Konecny obviously.

My point in saying he could have taken Aho or Cirelli over Dermott or Bracco/Dzierkals is that he does not get to act all pissy (if what you are saying is true and this was actually a cause for friction between Hunter and Dubas) for trading down when he had plenty of talent in an extremely deep draft from which to choose. He had two guys ranked higher than 24 that he was able to take by trading down from 24, and had at least two guys who have had great careers thus far as alternatives. It's not suddenly Dubas' fault if Hunter ended up taking the wrong people, or the people Hunter chose did not work out as expected. It may not even really be Hunter's fault, but it certainly is not Dubas' fault. If anything, Dubas did the one smart thing.



Well I am certainly not going to make something up to put blame on Dubas. I am not going to look for any random excuse to put blame on Dubas, especially when already blames himself for more of the Leafs' former problems than he should.

At this point, Hunter is just an overhyped scout. He was decent for us, but he was hardly as good as he acted, and if he had the kind of behaviour that you are suggesting, then it was a good thing he decided to leave in a huff. He doesn't get to be a complete control freak over the board and then blame Dubas when it does not work out.

As for Bracco, Dubas could have shopped him. Lou could have also shopped him. Hunter could have also not drafted him. At this point, all you have is speculation that Bracco was even guilty of doing anything, so at this point we still have a guy who was a good pick at 61 and was mostly just stuck in a numbers game, and could still get us something decent back in a trade. Worst case, Leafs lose a pretty good prospect for nothing but hardly anything that really affects their plans going forward.

One, where did he blame Dubas? He disagreed at the moment, and Shanahan took away the autonomy Hunter was supposed to have (which was Shanahan's recruiting pitch to get him to leave London). Which is why they brought Lou in to be the arbitrator. That quote is also weird because he doesn't attribute that quote to Hunter and I haven't seen it anywhere else. I've never seen it quoted elsewhere. Also, 22 is right around the cut-off for a "B" grade which is a 2nd round grade.

As for Konecny, I've heard from multiple people I trust on the matter that he was the guy and high on the board. I've said it long before Konecny blew up this year.

You are pointing to two very clear exceptions for the expected pick value of trading down though. Aho and Cirelli are aberrations.

As for Bracco, I've never said for sure its him, he's just one of the likely candidates. Its other people immediately jumping on Hunter for it.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

One, where did he blame Dubas? He disagreed at the moment, and Shanahan took away the autonomy Hunter was supposed to have (which was Shanahan's recruiting pitch to get him to leave London). Which is why they brought Lou in to be the arbitrator. That quote is also weird because he doesn't attribute that quote to Hunter and I haven't seen it anywhere else. I've never seen it quoted elsewhere. Also, 22 is right around the cut-off for a "B" grade which is a 2nd round grade.

As for Konecny, I've heard from multiple people I trust on the matter that he was the guy and high on the board. I've said it long before Konecny blew up this year.

You are pointing to two very clear exceptions for the expected pick value of trading down though. Aho and Cirelli are aberrations.

As for Bracco, I've never said for sure its him, he's just one of the likely candidates. Its other people immediately jumping on Hunter for it.

Well there is a big gap between "forced" like you originally said and what you are saying now, and regardless there is no real reason for Hunter to be pissed. Shanahan said from day 1 that this was a committee approach, so it should not come as a shock that not everything goes Hunter's way all of the time... He's just used to running the show, which he was able to do with his board. Clearly, based on his behaviour, he does not like not being in control, and went right back to where he could have that control: a team he owned.

Dubas was in charge of trades, and I highly doubt he made those trades without consulting Hunter and his board first. I can't confirm anything you say because I don't know your sources, but just logically speaking it does not make sense. If Konecny was worth that 24 pick, or worth more than that 24 pick, then I highly doubt Dubas is going to override that unless Hunter also said he felt guys coming after Konecny were going to be worth a lot themselves. Dubas is about value, so he is not going to trade down if it means he is getting less value than staying, and Hunter's board really determines the prospect value of that trade. Tradevalue wise, there was nothing wrong with the trades, and that is really as far as Dubas goes.

I don't know, way too much speculation for my liking. That #22 may or may not be true, but it's a published source that can't afford to just make crap up out of nowhere. I am just happy that Shanahan picked the better option for GM, and if Hunter was not happy being here, then I could really care less that he decided to leave. Our drafting skill has not devolved since he has left.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Well there is a big gap between "forced" like you originally said and what you are saying now, and regardless there is no real reason for Hunter to be pissed. Shanahan said from day 1 that this was a committee approach, so it should not come as a shock that not everything goes Hunter's way all of the time... He's just used to running the show, which he was able to do with his board. Clearly, based on his behaviour, he does not like not being in control, and went right back to where he could have that control: a team he owned.

Dubas was in charge of trades, and I highly doubt he made those trades without consulting Hunter and his board first. I can't confirm anything you say because I don't know your sources, but just logically speaking it does not make sense. If Konecny was worth that 24 pick, or worth more than that 24 pick, then I highly doubt Dubas is going to override that unless Hunter also said he felt guys coming after Konecny were going to be worth a lot themselves. Dubas is about value, so he is not going to trade down if it means he is getting less value than staying, and Hunter's board really determines the prospect value of that trade. Tradevalue wise, there was nothing wrong with the trades, and that is really as far as Dubas goes.

I don't know, way too much speculation for my liking. That #22 may or may not be true, but it's a published source that can't afford to just make crap up out of nowhere. I am just happy that Shanahan picked the better option for GM, and if Hunter was not happy being here, then I could really care less that he decided to leave. Our drafting skill has not devolved since he has left.

At least we're not rushing to the podium to draft a double overage KHL 4th liner at 31 and bragging that we're shocked he's still available anymore. Funny how the smaller skilled picks make the NHL faster than the big physically ready overagers.