Marc Bergevin: Search for Redemption

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Can't wait for that juicy inexistent quote...

Well, for one, we know Timmins has now the final word when it comes to drafting players, which wasn't the case in the past.

I'll point to a video, at 3:10, listen to what Bergevin says:

"you make the scouts fight for their player and at the end of the day, Trevor will make the final say."



There's another quote from the draft week where Bergevin says Timmins is the one in charge of the draft.

 

[groovejuice]

There was a press conf or interview, where he seemed to lean towards, admitting there was something going on, where he was not in total control....can't remember the exacts............that being said, just look at his body language, and his lack of arrogance recently.....personally for me, I think Timmins has more say, and DD and Bouchard being around has made things more interesting.

We're recalling the same event, I'm sure. It was soon after Molson promised changes (not the hot dogs).

Bergevin was talking about improving the team even if he wasn't the one calling all the shots.

 

[BLONG7]

We're recalling the same event, I'm sure. It was soon after Molson promised changes (not the hot dogs).

Bergevin was talking about improving the team even if he wasn't the one calling all the shots.

Yes, exactly...he said something similar right after the draft also...indicating he may not be making a pick in Koko to actually see play, since he may no longer be around too much longer.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Yes, exactly...he said something similar right after the draft also...indicating he may not be making a pick in Koko to actually see play, since he may no longer be around too much longer.

You're referencing the time he said he was going to do his job even if it was for the next GM.

It was more an admission that he was on a tight rope.

 

[groovejuice]

You're referencing the time he said he was going to do his job even if it was for the next GM.

It was more an admission that he was on a tight rope.

That may very well be it. I felt at the time he was implying his role had already been reduced, or at least modified. I do recall it was kind of whiny - as if he was somehow a victim of circumstances rather than of his own failures.

 

[Andrei79]

The fact you're not understanding my point here shows how you're not interested in being objective.
Care to name me the number of guys from Novo that made it to the NHL? After that, tell me how someone with an average-to-poor character makes it to the most elite league across the world as an athlete.
Want to list the number of guys from Edmonton to have made it? Not that this means anything, again, but it can help contrast things a bit.

The fact I brought up Kostitsyns advantages means I am interested in a genuine convo about the subject. I don't see how his city's size relates to his character. Ornskoldsvik has a 1/27 ratio-to-Edmonton and produced some exceptional players. Actually, a number of players from Novopolotsk have played in the KHL, meaning there's some sort of high level hockey schooling there. Add a family with basically what amounts to unlimited means in regards to hockey development and I don't see how this matters when it's all said and done.

Me? You're the one shrugging off A.Kost's medical past as if you have insight on his history. Please share man, I'd love to know what's his medical history.

Sure, he had one seizure the year of his draft that made teams shy away from drafting him, but the medical staff didn't think it would hamper his abilities in any way. Actually, he was treated in 2004 after a series during a few weeks of night time seizures lasting less than 10 seconds each. As far as types of epilepsy he could have had, he had one of the most benign and easily treatable, one that was quickly controlled.

I'm just surprised how one player having a wealth more of intangibles than another player, who's played on better teams, could not get further than a team with lazy russians, attitude issues, and what not.

I'm not sure I've debated that character/intangibles alone will make you a winning team, much less that one good but not exceptionnal player having it will have that kind of impact. I've debated against that notion because, as I've said, talent trumps it and we've seen this to be true over and over under Bergevin. But, with equal talent - something that does happen the farther you go into the post-season, many of the difficult-to-quantify attributes, even including luck, I feel do make a difference.

I think intangibles are incredibly overrated. They hold close to no impact, and if they do it's very rare.
I also think anybody that makes it to the highest level of their sport as tremendous character. You don't become elite at anything without an incredible level of work and dedication. So I think it's pretty funny when someone is going to allude to how one guy has so much more character because his style is skating hard and digging the puck vs someone who likes to stand back more, deke, and pick corners.

I agree with the basic notions of what you're saying. That said, it also takes tremendous talent to make the NHL even as a 4th liner, yet there's still some major skill and talent discrepancies within the top of the pyramid of players that is the NHL. That's the nature of the beast amongst the gifted and prodigious. This is true of intangibles too, whether they actually hold value or not, and that truly is entirely debatable. Especially considering they're often dynamic, impacted by environment and are constantly developped through time at different rates.

That said, in this example which I found to be a bad one to make the argument, one player's an undersized winger with relatively limited skill making a consistent impact on any line he plays on. He's versatile, combative and dedicated off the ice, he's surmounted limited physical tools in relation to his peers to become a key player who's surpassed his "expected" longevity and projection at the draft.

The other underproduced in relation to his expected output for his skill level and natural physical attributes (he's built like a tank and strong to boot), a skill level that he's still showing at 35 in a lower league than he should be playing in. He's also found himself having off-ice issues on both teams he's played and left the NHL much sooner than someone his talent level, in a historic draft class, would be expected to. Even if he did show enough dedication to make the NHL, there's still a significant difference in relation to the other player.

 

[Doc McKenna]

I expected it. I am not clairvoyant, but being a Habs fan for a while , when you pick up whispers from the shadows, as in media reporting on character issues about a player, or the classic " is there a locker room cancer ? " stuff, it signals the team is looking at trading a guy. I have no question the Habs feed the press this stuff, very Soviet Union like, to generate some negativity about a player. Real weird stuff, as if they really want/need the media and fan support about moving a guy. So with PK I did not at all buy MBs I was not trying to move PK, its just that I answered the phone one day and Poile made an offer that could not be refused. Yeah, right.

It was reported that there was several dummy twitter accounts by the owner in Ottawa to support him and his moves. I don't think that is beyond th realms of possibility for the habs. All the political parties are doing it to the point we have a government propaganda new outlet in ontario from Dumb Fruads government. Still pissed at him for the cancelling of the francophone university in ontario. He upset a lot of northern francos and a few islands of frenchies we have down in the southwest. Funny that americans in Detroit don't know much about their franco roots. On the canadian side we have names like River Canard, Belle Isle, Peche Island, Belleriver, LaSalle. In windsor our main drag is Ouellette avenue.

Sorry I sometimes get off topic a bit.

 

[Apoplectic Habs Fan]

A GM who builds a defense this bad should simply not have a job. Its gotten worse every yr he has been GM. To a point where its AHL quality

 

[Kriss E]

The fact I brought up Kostitsyns advantages means I am interested in a genuine convo about the subject. I don't see how his city's size relates to his character. Ornskoldsvik has a 1/27 ratio-to-Edmonton and produced some exceptional players. Actually, a number of players from Novopolotsk have played in the KHL, meaning there's some sort of high level hockey schooling there. Add a family with basically what amounts to unlimited means in regards to hockey development and I don't see how this matters when it's all said and done.

The sheer fact he's become an elite athlete and made it to the highest level shows how strong his character is.

Sure, he had one seizure the year of his draft that made teams shy away from drafting him, but the medical staff didn't think it would hamper his abilities in any way. Actually, he was treated in 2004 after a series during a few weeks of night time seizures lasting less than 10 seconds each. As far as types of epilepsy he could have had, he had one of the most benign and easily treatable, one that was quickly controlled.

No matter how benign, it remains an obstacle, and again, we do not know how they affected him during his childhood or adolescence.

I'm not sure I've debated that character/intangibles alone will make you a winning team, much less that one good but not exceptionnal player having it will have that kind of impact. I've debated against that notion because, as I've said, talent trumps it and we've seen this to be true over and over under Bergevin. But, with equal talent - something that does happen the farther you go into the post-season, many of the difficult-to-quantify attributes, even including luck, I feel do make a difference.

I disagree with that. Crosby vs McDavid, they're about as equal as two elite players can be. If McDavid beat Crosby in a one vs one, I don't think it's due to having more character.
When speaking of a team, I don't believe there is any ''equal talent''. There are way too many things involved. A team can match better vs another because the way their top guys physically are built neutralizes the other team better than a third team would again, because of their shape. That's simply one example.
One team can be less powerful on their top line, but their depth is remarkably superior than most with a 4th line better than a lot of 3rd lines.
Depends what you consider as intangible. If it's everything you can't measure, as luck, or injury pain, family disputes, etc...well then fine, absolutely they can play a part. I don't count those in though, I only speak of leadership and character.
I think those are at the absolutely bottom of importance that they shouldn't even be worth mentioning, but they give this romantic feel, so they're fun to mention.
I think luck is a big factor, and for that I give it its own category. If you include it as your intangible, then okay, but I don't think it should be mentioned on equal footing as leadership or character.

I agree with the basic notions of what you're saying. That said, it also takes tremendous talent to make the NHL even as a 4th liner, yet there's still some major skill and talent discrepancies within the top of the pyramid of players that is the NHL. That's the nature of the beast amongst the gifted and prodigious. This is true of intangibles too, whether they actually hold value or not, and that truly is entirely debatable. Especially considering they're often dynamic, impacted by environment and are constantly developped through time at different rates.

I think there are major differences in talent. I don't think the difference regarding intangibles are nearly as important.

That said, in this example which I found to be a bad one to make the argument, one player's an undersized winger with relatively limited skill making a consistent impact on any line he plays on. He's versatile, combative and dedicated off the ice, he's surmounted limited physical tools in relation to his peers to become a key player who's surpassed his "expected" longevity and projection at the draft.

The other underproduced in relation to his expected output for his skill level and natural physical attributes (he's built like a tank and strong to boot), a skill level that he's still showing at 35 in a lower league than he should be playing in. He's also found himself having off-ice issues on both teams he's played and left the NHL much sooner than someone his talent level, in a historic draft class, would be expected to. Even if he did show enough dedication to make the NHL, there's still a significant difference in relation to the other player.

I think Gallagher's skill is underrated because of his size.
For AK, his off ice issues are entirely speculative. He was ''caught'' having a friend who had ties to the criminal world. Boohoo...you can probably say that for most people who like to enjoy going out, which is no crime at all.
I think A.K doesn't have the skill to get to the extra level. I don't think it has anything to do with character.

 

[Kriss E]

A GM who builds a defense this bad should simply not have a job. Its gotten worse every yr he has been GM. To a point where its AHL quality

I don't mind sticking with this defense if the plan was to suck. But if Bergevin was trying to be more competitive to make the POs and opted to go with this group..well that's a problem.

 

[yianik]

We have the 12th best record in the league, ignoring games in hand, and are holding onto a wild card birth. This is quite a surprise.

Weber coming back cannot be understated. Not sure how long it will take for him to get up to game speed , but when he does he will be a huge help. Between him and Petry either will be on the ice for almost 50 minutes a game, should make a real big difference.

Then we see.

I just hope MB doesnt make any moves to get us into the post season. Anybody we trade ought to be for the future, not the now, unless it is both.

For me, it's all about the Cup , so I would rather have a high draft pick than get into the post season just for the sake of it. We have loaded up on C prospects and could use a few more good D prospects with high ceilings. They will take time to develop but age wise they would be in line with our centres. This is a very important draft for us.

I am not pitching tanking, just no short term moves please. And at the TDL for MB to keep an open mind about improving the team for the future even at short term cost.

 

[Habs Halifax]

A GM who builds a defense this bad should simply not have a job. Its gotten worse every yr he has been GM. To a point where its AHL quality

The D is bad. Having Tinordi and Beaulieu both bust didn't help. We drafted Juulsen and got lucky with Mete. I really do like Juulsen and some of the young prospects (Brook, Fleury, Romanov, Harris) but we will have to wait.

Losing Markov was a huge hit. Weber being hurt don't help. I feel sorry for Price and hope he doesn't loose his patience. Once healthy, lets see how it looks. I really do think we should consider rolling a very strong top 4D. Move Petry to the Left side cause I think he can handle it and play him with Juulsen. Don't care who they try from game to game on the 3rd pairing

Reilly / Weber
Petry / Juulsen

Much better than the top 4D we are rolling right now without Weber and Juulsen.

If we could get another trade partner who is strong on the LD side and needs a center, I think we should consider trading Poehling. But only if we get a equal and young talent in return. Not sure who is out there.

 

[ECWHSWI]

The D is bad. Having Tinordi and Beaulieu both bust didn't help. We drafted Juulsen and got lucky with Mete. I really do like Juulsen and some of the young prospects (Brook, Fleury, Romanov, Harris) but we will have to wait.

Losing Markov was a huge hit. Weber being hurt don't help. I feel sorry for Price and hope he doesn't loose his patience. Once healthy, lets see how it looks. I really do think we should consider rolling a very strong top 4D. Move Petry to the Left side cause I think he can handle it and play him with Juulsen. Don't care who they try from game to game on the 3rd pairing

Reilly / Weber
Petry / Juulsen

Much better than the top 4D we are rolling right now without Weber and Juulsen.

how so ? the guy is not (yet) ready.

 

[Habs Halifax]

how so ? the guy is not (yet) ready.

Be more specific? Juulsen or Mete? If you are talking about Juulsen, I don't agree. That guy is producing and is very effective in his own end. I like his game. As far as Mete, I think he is too small and if he is on my roster, he needs to be playing a very high tempo game where takes advantage of his speed. I don't think he is playing the same as he did last season at this point.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We have the 12th best record in the league, ignoring games in hand, and are holding onto a wild card birth. This is quite a surprise.

Weber coming back cannot be understated. Not sure how long it will take for him to get up to game speed , but when he does he will be a huge help. Between him and Petry either will be on the ice for almost 50 minutes a game, should make a real big difference.

Then we see.

I just hope MB doesnt make any moves to get us into the post season. Anybody we trade ought to be for the future, not the now, unless it is both.

For me, it's all about the Cup , so I would rather have a high draft pick than get into the post season just for the sake of it. We have loaded up on C prospects and could use a few more good D prospects with high ceilings. They will take time to develop but age wise they would be in line with our centres. This is a very important draft for us.

I am not pitching tanking, just no short term moves please. And at the TDL for MB to keep an open mind about improving the team for the future even at short term cost.

We just might make the playoffs if Weber comes back healthy. To me that will be a huge surprise.

We've played well above what I thought we would. The D has been about what I expected but at least we can score this year. It's been fun to watch. But the cracks are there and we're seeing the real team now. As expected we're coming back to earth and I think we're going to have another tough year. The playoffs aren't out of reach but I agree with you, no short term fixes just to get there. We're not winning anything so stick with the longterm plan and continue to go after younger players/prospects. Hopefully we can get some good young talent back there on the D.

 

[Kriss E]

We just might make the playoffs if Weber comes back healthy. To me that will be a huge surprise.

We've played well above what I thought we would. The D has been about what I expected but at least we can score this year. It's been fun to watch. But the cracks are there and we're seeing the real team now. As expected we're coming back to earth and I think we're going to have another tough year. The playoffs aren't out of reach but I agree with you, no short term fixes just to get there. We're not winning anything so stick with the longterm plan and continue to go after younger players/prospects. Hopefully we can get some good young talent back there on the D.

I don't think we will keep scoring at the rate we have.
Weber coming back....people seem to forget how we sucked last year with him in the line up. People like to say he hurt his foot in game 1 but really, nobody was complaining about Weber not playing well at any point. He was doing his job, but Weber is not a savior. He isn't a driving force either.
Guys like Gallagher and Tatar have already slowed down. Domi is putting up some points still, but I don't think he's been playing that particularly well over the past little stretch.

I'm not sure what the impact of Weber will be.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't think we will keep scoring at the rate we have.
Weber coming back....people seem to forget how we sucked last year with him in the line up. People like to say he hurt his foot in game 1 but really, nobody was complaining about Weber not playing well at any point. He was doing his job, but Weber is not a savior. He isn't a driving force either.
Guys like Gallagher and Tatar have already slowed down. Domi is putting up some points still, but I don't think he's been playing that particularly well over the past little stretch.

I'm not sure what the impact of Weber will be.

He will at least settle things down a little.

 

[BLONG7]

Does it not seem strange, they have sent Bergevin to Finland to scout players?? Does he not have staff to do this stuff? Meanwhile our D is falling apart...

 

[OldCraig71]

That may very well be it. I felt at the time he was implying his role had already been reduced, or at least modified. I do recall it was kind of whiny - as if he was somehow a victim of circumstances rather than of his own failures.

This was why I posted about a month ago that I felt that Timmins had much more say than some felt that he did, I probably went over the top when I suggested that Bergevin was still around for PR purposes but I like many of you feel like things have changed and for the better.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

I don't think we will keep scoring at the rate we have.
Weber coming back....people seem to forget how we sucked last year with him in the line up. People like to say he hurt his foot in game 1 but really, nobody was complaining about Weber not playing well at any point. He was doing his job, but Weber is not a savior. He isn't a driving force either.
Guys like Gallagher and Tatar have already slowed down. Domi is putting up some points still, but I don't think he's been playing that particularly well over the past little stretch.

I'm not sure what the impact of Weber will be.

It has never been Shea Weber alone making an impact. Weber has never proven he can operate with a boat anchor on his side like Subban or Markov. Subban has played with the likes of Gorges, Gill, Bouillon and Markov with Komisarek, among others. Shea Weber's other half has been far more blessed, having guys like Suter and Josi as his partner.

So, when the Sasquatch comes back, he's gets to operate in the vacuum that he has avoided during his prime and prove if he can elevate a non A-lister LD to the heavens like real #1s do.

 

[teamfirst]

Does it not seem strange, they have sent Bergevin to Finland to scout players?? Does he not have staff to do this stuff? Meanwhile our D is falling apart...

All tho i doubt he's been sent, find it a bit strange too, could it be to try to convince Ylonen-Ikonen-Oloffson to come play for Laval after the world junior, i dont know if they even can do that beceause of their ages and contracts

 

[nhlfan9191]

Be more specific? Juulsen or Mete? If you are talking about Juulsen, I don't agree. That guy is producing and is very effective in his own end. I like his game. As far as Mete, I think he is too small and if he is on my roster, he needs to be playing a very high tempo game where takes advantage of his speed. I don't think he is playing the same as he did last season at this point.

I’ve said it since the World Juniors last year where he looked really good, don’t mess around with this kid. Let him develop, he isn’t ready and sure enough he was called back up to the team shortly after. Same with this season, he shouldn’t be here. He should be in the American League. We have a lot of cases where players have busted because they simply aren’t good enough and although I agree with you about him being to small. I think our mismanagement of him will be the cause of his demise if it happens.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Does it not seem strange, they have sent Bergevin to Finland to scout players?? Does he not have staff to do this stuff? Meanwhile our D is falling apart...

It gives credence to my theory that he's now merely a figurehead of a GM. He now shares his major responsabilities with his two assistants.

Mellanby and Timmins are probably working in commitee with him.

 

[groovejuice]

It gives credence to my theory that he's now merely a figurehead of a GM. He now shares his major responsabilities with his two assistants.

Mellanby and Timmins are probably working in commitee with him.

No. It can't be. It's a lie. I was politely told that yesterday.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I’ve said it since the World Juniors last year where he looked really good, don’t mess around with this kid. Let him develop, he isn’t ready and sure enough he was called back up to the team shortly after. Same with this season, he shouldn’t be here. He should be in the American League. We have a lot of cases where players have busted because they simply aren’t good enough and although I agree with you about him being to small. I think our mismanagement of him will be the cause of his demise if it happens.

I put more value towards shutdown type D man than guys like Mete. If Mete was flying around out there and setting up people racking up assist, I would be more high on him. However, he appears to be in stalled development mode.

You could be right. AHL time might be the best thing for him.