Marc Bergevin: Search for Redemption

[Soltantgris]

The timing for this Finland long trip is, at least, intriguing. I would assume that some trade discussion is ongoing and involve at least 1 Finland player. He is not spending that much time in Finland just for in-house scouting evaluation. There is something behind this, 99% of time.

Expect the unexpected.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I put more value towards shutdown type D man than guys like Mete. If Mete was flying around out there and setting up people racking up assist, I would be more high on him. However, he appears to be in stalled development mode.

You could be right. AHL time might be the best thing for him.

When you refer to shutdown defenceman, you make me think of players like a Weber or even an Alzner before his career was finished. Those players are just about extinct in today’s NHL. What kind of defenceman are you referring to when you say you value shutdown types?

 

[Habs Halifax]

The timing for this Finland long trip is, at least, intriguing. I would assume that some trade discussion is ongoing and involve at least 1 Finland player. He is not spending that much time in Finland just for in-house scouting evaluation. There is something behind this, 99% of time.

Expect the unexpected.

Wasn't aware of this. I'm assuming it's Bergevin you are talking about right? Maybe he is checking out Ylonen's game and I also believe Ikonen is close to returning. Olofsson plays in Sweden and is not too far away. Who else do we have over there?

 

[Deebs]

When you refer to shutdown defenceman, you make me think of players like a Weber or even an Alzner before his career was finished. Those players are just about extinct in today’s NHL. What kind of defenceman are you referring to when you say you value shutdown types?

I've always thought of shutdown D men as being very good defensively.

 

[Habs Halifax]

When you refer to shutdown defenceman, you make me think of players like a Weber or even an Alzner before his career was finished. Those players are just about extinct in today’s NHL. What kind of defenceman are you referring to when you say you value shutdown types?

No, I'm talking about shutdown defenseman like Weber, not Alzner. The ability to neutralize the other teams forwards by containing them into to side boards. They are not extinct. Your talking about Alzner who shutdown players by clutching and grabbing cause his skating is terrible and he's not a smart player. Comparing Weber to Alzner is an insult to Weber.

Hedman is a shutdown type. You know you can't go through him, so you try to go around him and he controls your direction. Taking it a few notches down, Juulsen is a shutdown type. He has great mobility and is strong on the puck. Petry is also a shutdown type. He can pin you to the boards and hold you there.

Reilly, Mete, Schlemko, Quellet are all soft in our own end. They skate well for the most part but their ability to contain is not very good. Alzner has some shutdown ability in tight but his vision is terrible and his skating is very bad. Benn is decent but lacks vision.

I want guys who are strong, has some mobility, plays smart, and can force outside shots. Price needs it!

 

[Habs Halifax]

I've always thought of shutdown D men as being very good defensively.

Shutdown type guys that are big and strong and smart and has mobility. I value these type defenseman who can also move the puck. Juulsen is a prime example. He's not going to be a point producer but his value in his own end and how he helps the break out is very good. People look at points way too much with defenseman.

You want to get the best out of Price? You build a mobile top 4D who are strong and play smart. They also have ability to move the puck in transition vs dumping it along the boards like Benn, Schlemko, Alzner does.

 

[Deebs]

Shutdown type guys that are big and strong and smart and has mobility. I value these type defenseman who can also move the puck. Juulsen is a prime example. He's not going to be a point producer but his value in his own end and how he helps the break out is very good. People look at points way too much with defenseman.

You want to get the best out of Price? You build a mobile top 4D who are strong and play smart. They also have ability to move the puck in transition vs dumping it along the boards like Benn, Schlemko, Alzner does.

If a player is defensively aware and doesn't put his team at a disadvantage, he can be a shutdown guy, especially in this day and age where the forwards are decreasing in size. Sure, size is a plus, but it's no longer a necessity.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If a player is defensively aware and doesn't put his team at a disadvantage, he can be a shutdown guy, especially in this day and age where the forwards are decreasing in size. Sure, size is a plus, but it's no longer a necessity.

I associate size with strength. A player 5'-11" can be just as strong as a 6'-3" player.

Sure, you can build your team full of Mete and Reilly types where you value speed. I'm going after mobility, playing smart, and reliability... like Juulsen types. Look at the Jets, Preds, Ducks, Kings, Caps, Blues, Sharks, Wild, Bruins, Lighting who have typically been some of the best defensive teams in 3 or 4 seasons now. They have a defense built on their ability to shut down, play smart, good mobility, and are very strong in terms on strength/size.

Reilly: Spare part from another team
Benn: Spare part from another team
Schlemko: Spare part from another team
Alzner: Spare part from another team (Caps moved on from him for valid reasons)

Each one of these guys are players we picked up from teams that let them go. Think about why? Reasons are different in each case. Right now, we have 3 of these guys in our top 4D. Add Mete who is our own draft pick and our shutdown ability is terrible. Price is being exposed.

Reilly is the only piece I value in those 4 cause I do think his speed and vision is decent. But boy, he is not good in his own end. Might be a good fit to pair up with Weber.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I associate size with strength. A player 5'-11" can be just as strong as a 6'-3" player.

Sure, you can build your team full of Mete and Reilly types where you value speed. I'm going after mobility, playing smart, and reliability... like Juulsen types. Look at the Jets, Preds, Ducks, Kings, Caps, Blues, Sharks, Wild, Bruins, Lighting who have typically been some of the best defensive teams in 3 or 4 seasons now. They have a defense built on their ability to shut down, play smart, good mobility, and are very strong in terms on strength/size.

Reilly: Spare part from another team
Benn: Spare part from another team
Schlemko: Spare part from another team
Alzner: Spare part from another team (Caps moved on from him for valid reasons)

Each one of these guys are players we picked up from teams that let them go. Think about why? Reasons are different in each case. Right now, we have 3 of these guys in our top 4D. Add Mete who is our own draft pick and our shutdown ability is terrible. Price is being exposed.

Reilly is the only piece I value in those 4 cause I do think his speed and vision is decent. But boy, he is not good in his own end. Might be a good fit to pair up with Weber.

Holy crap no. Reilly, you keep. You can't have one size fits all D's. On a strong D, Reilly can be an excellent #5 on the left side. The kid has smarts. He can easily replace on 2nd pair too. He's a keeper.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Holy crap no. Reilly, you keep. You can't have one size fits all D's. On a strong D, Reilly can be an excellent #5 on the left side. The kid has smarts. He can easily replace on 2nd pair too. He's a keeper.

Read the last sentence you replied to.

 

[BLONG7]

I associate size with strength. A player 5'-11" can be just as strong as a 6'-3" player.

Sure, you can build your team full of Mete and Reilly types where you value speed. I'm going after mobility, playing smart, and reliability... like Juulsen types. Look at the Jets, Preds, Ducks, Kings, Caps, Blues, Sharks, Wild, Bruins, Lighting who have typically been some of the best defensive teams in 3 or 4 seasons now. They have a defense built on their ability to shut down, play smart, good mobility, and are very strong in terms on strength/size.

Reilly: Spare part from another team
Benn: Spare part from another team
Schlemko: Spare part from another team
Alzner: Spare part from another team (Caps moved on from him for valid reasons)

Each one of these guys are players we picked up from teams that let them go. Think about why? Reasons are different in each case. Right now, we have 3 of these guys in our top 4D. Add Mete who is our own draft pick and our shutdown ability is terrible. Price is being exposed.

Reilly is the only piece I value in those 4 cause I do think his speed and vision is decent. But boy, he is not good in his own end. Might be a good fit to pair up with Weber.

The list of D here, really makes you wonder, how in gods green earth, does Bergevin still work in the NHL...he seems like he should be working for Dr Phil, in dealing with guys like this, who need counselling when there work is done...

 

[Habs Halifax]

The list of D here, really makes you wonder, how in gods green earth, does Bergevin still work in the NHL...he seems like he should be working for Dr Phil, in dealing with guys like this, who need counselling when there work is done...

A couple of factors lead to this mess...

1) Letting Markov go thinking Alzner can be a reliable top 4D. He played hardball with Markov in a 1 year deal where we had plenty of cap space all year. Very disappointing.

2) Both Tinordi and Beaulieu being disappointments.

3) 2017 off season.
- Out: Markov, Beaulieu, Emelin
- In: Alzner, Schlemko

Yeah we got lucky with Mete but the kid is not not very good in his own end and needs to be paired up with someone who has shutdown ability. Mete needs to play a high tempo game and show us his vision. If he can't do this, he is useless. The Mete we see today is not the same Mete we saw at this point last year. Heck, even in the world juniors, I thought he was OK but expected more from him.

Petry and a bunch or 3rd pairing guys. It will get better with Weber and Juulsen so I'm looking forward to that. Hope they move Petry to the Left side with Juulsen. Reilly can play with Weber.

Yeah, Bergevin values the Benn, Alzner, Schlemko types way too much! We are either going to have to make a hockey trade (from position of strength... C and RD) or wait for the young kids. If we wait, there is going to be growing pains and I don't expect Price to save us.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Reilly-Weber
Xxxxx-Petry
Mete-Juulsen

We need a great partner for Petry, we are only 1 defenseman away from having a solid squad.

Any bad teams have a veteran LD available for trade? Maybe a 2nd round pick and one of our prospects not called Suzuki or Poehling..

 

[nhlfan9191]

No, I'm talking about shutdown defenseman like Weber, not Alzner. The ability to neutralize the other teams forwards by containing them into to side boards. They are not extinct. Your talking about Alzner who shutdown players by clutching and grabbing cause his skating is terrible and he's not a smart player. Comparing Weber to Alzner is an insult to Weber.

Hedman is a shutdown type. You know you can't go through him, so you try to go around him and he controls your direction. Taking it a few notches down, Juulsen is a shutdown type. He has great mobility and is strong on the puck. Petry is also a shutdown type. He can pin you to the boards and hold you there.

Reilly, Mete, Schlemko, Quellet are all soft in our own end. They skate well for the most part but their ability to contain is not very good. Alzner has some shutdown ability in tight but his vision is terrible and his skating is very bad. Benn is decent but lacks vision.

I want guys who are strong, has some mobility, plays smart, and can force outside shots. Price needs it!

I disagree about the part with Weber. You have to be able to skate, carry the puck, and transition a lot better then he can if you’re a young player trying to make it. Size is an advantage no doubt because of wing span, but speed and the ability to carry the play has never been more important. The only offensive trait that keeps Weber effective still offensively is his shot which is generational.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I disagree about the part with Weber. You have to be able to skate, carry the puck, and transition a lot better then he can if you’re a young player trying to make it. Size is an advantage no doubt because of wing span, but speed and the ability to carry the play has never been more important. The only offensive trait that keeps Weber effective still offensively is his shot which is generational.

Weber's game was never build on creating separation with skating. His game is to limit you to the outside, play smart, and move the puck to others in open space. You don't have to be an elite skater to move the puck. You need a bit of mobility and ability to protect the puck while to get the puck to someone who is open. Weber has learned how to do this many years ago.

Markov for example did not create separation with his skating from age 30+. He has vision and he makes the smart pass. Weber does not have the same vision but his vision is not bad. He knows what to do with the puck and he knows how to play a shutdown style. Is he perfect? No.

Heck, even Subban learned how to protect the puck and not try to do everything himself once he was with the Preds. Ever see Subban shoot the puck along the along the boards to get it out of the zone? I have. However, this is not about who won the trade. This is about Weber still being Weber and there is no reason to raise the decline alarm bells.

Lets say the Olympics were this year and in NA. Weber is still on my team. If it was in Europe on a bigger ice surface, Then I start to think about it. But to treat Weber like Alzner is offensive.

Vlasic / Burns
Subban / Doughty
Reilly / Weber
Gio, Letang, Piet

 

[nhlfan9191]

Weber's game was never build on creating separation with skating. His game is to limit you to the outside, play smart, and move the puck to others in open space. You don't have to be an elite skater to move the puck. You need a bit of mobility and ability to protect the puck while to get the puck to someone who is open. Weber has learned how to do this many years ago.

Markov for example did not create separation with his skating from age 30+. He has vision and he makes the smart pass. Weber does not have the same vision but his vision is not bad. He knows what to do with the puck and he knows how to play a shutdown style. Is he perfect? No.

Heck, even Subban learned how to protect the puck and not try to do everything himself once he was with the Preds. Ever see Subban shoot the puck along the along the boards to get it out of the zone? I have. However, this is not about who won the trade. This is about Weber still being Weber and there is no reason to raise the decline alarm bells.

My problem with Weber is what happens after he defends. He’s incredibly smart, intimidating physically, and has always had just the right amount of foot speed to make up for him not being the best skater. Not to mention he has a shot which is an offensive weapon on its own. With the way the games trended, you don’t look for guys like that anymore. You’re looking for players who have a mixture of everything because you need it because of how fast the game keeps getting. My biggest fear with Weber when he steps back down on the ice is can he keep up after these surgeries. I like to hope so. But rhere’s no doubt Shea Weber was a mold of Scott Stevens when he came into the league and in his prime, and those defenceman do not exist anymore whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody’s being taught to play that way anymore.

 

[Halakitlikethat]

He should be fired for what he did to the defence , and did nothing to fix it in the offseason except throw shit at the wall

 

[Habs Halifax]

My problem with Weber is what happens after he defends. He’s incredibly smart, intimidating physically, and has always had just the right amount of foot speed to make up for him not being the best skater. Not to mention he has a shot which is an offensive weapon on its own. With the way the games trended, you don’t look for guys like that anymore. You’re looking for players who have a mixture of everything because you need it because of how fast the game keeps getting. My biggest fear with Weber when he steps back down on the ice is can he keep up after these surgeries. I like to hope so. But rhere’s no doubt Shea Weber was a mold of Scott Stevens when he came into the league and in his prime, and those defenceman do not exist anymore whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody’s being taught to play that way anymore.

I think the issue here is we need to forget that we got him by trading Subban. Once you get past this, you might come to realize the value Weber still has. Babcock shut the Montreal media quite well last year with his "if you don't want him, we will take him".

I feel bad for Weber. So many people don't give him the credit he deserves. Yeah, he is not an elite level skater. He never was. If he was, I'd agree with the decline concerns. In truth, I was more worried about Markov cause he was an elite skater IMO in his prime. When he had that knee surgery, I was concerned he lost his speed. Well, Markov survived and he transitioned into a smarter player with vision and making the right play. Pretty sure people are happy with his production in his 30's

 

[Habs Halifax]

He should be fired for what he did to the defence , and did nothing to fix it in the offseason except throw **** at the wall

Dam... you wanted us to hit home runs with Galchenyuk (Domi), Patch (Suzuki, Tatar, 2nd) and get a top 2D? Wow, your standards are high. I don't even think Yzerman can do this

 

[Belial]

I hope you're not implying I fabricated this. That's beneath you. Far beneath you.

No. It can't be. It's a lie. I was politely told that yesterday.

Still waiting for the quote...

Well, for one, we know Timmins has now the final word when it comes to drafting players, which wasn't the case in the past.

I'll point to a video, at 3:10, listen to what Bergevin says:

"you make the scouts fight for their player and at the end of the day, Trevor will make the final say."



There's another quote from the draft week where Bergevin says Timmins is the one in charge of the draft.

Timmins is in charge of this team's draft since forever! No news there...

 

[CGG]

It has never been Shea Weber alone making an impact. Weber has never proven he can operate with a boat anchor on his side like Subban or Markov. Subban has played with the likes of Gorges, Gill, Bouillon and Markov with Komisarek, among others. Shea Weber's other half has been far more blessed, having guys like Suter and Josi as his partner.

So, when the Sasquatch comes back, he's gets to operate in the vacuum that he has avoided during his prime and prove if he can elevate a non A-lister LD to the heavens like real #1s do.

He was a Norris candidate half way through his first season in Montreal, while carrying around Alexei Emelin as his regular partner. Plus he played some with Beauleiu, a frequent healthy scratch on the Buffalo Sabres. They later paired him up with Markov, who was many things but fast ain't one of them. Playing with inferior D partners is nothing new to Weber.

I wouldn't be surprised if Petry ends up moving to the left side and becomes Weber's new partner.

 

[groovejuice]

Still waiting for the quote...



Timmins is in charge of this team's draft since forever! No news there...

You can't possibly have missed the other posters who recall the same thing. You're simply being a jerk at this point. I'm done with you.

 

[KevSkillz4]

The forward group are pretty good. With Domi, Drouin, Gallagher, Tatar, Kotkaniemi and more with the future like Poehling, Suzuki, Ylonen etc...

Just need to make the D better and we have great team for years to come!

 

[SirClintonPortis]

He was a Norris candidate half way through his first season in Montreal, while carrying around Alexei Emelin as his regular partner. Plus he played some with Beauleiu, a frequent healthy scratch on the Buffalo Sabres. They later paired him up with Markov, who was many things but fast ain't one of them. Playing with inferior D partners is nothing new to Weber.

I wouldn't be surprised if Petry ends up moving to the left side and becomes Weber's new partner.

After total 10 combined years in Nashville of first playing with Suter and then Josi, he finally gets bad partners...in his first year in Montreal. Somehow, the becomes something that "nothing new to Weber"? That's exactly the f***ing definition of new!!!

Only a f***ing turd would convert a RD to his offside; everything is harder to do that way. There are more LDs than RDs on average and somehow we don't have a single good one.

Halfway through the season is 41 games. Weber Mr. October'd and Mr. November'd 18 points in the first 22 games but then had a sustained drought starting on November 29, 2016. Weber's initial spurt of 18 pts in 22 games fizzled out into a 24 pts in 56 game finish.

Weber is never, ever a Norris candidate as long as Suter is around, never mind the real elites like Doughty, Hedman, Karlsson, Subban, Keith, etc.

 

[Belial]

You can't possibly have missed the other posters who recall the same thing. You're simply being a jerk at this point. I'm done with you.

Predictable...

People also heard Bergevin calling Radulov a dog and it never happened.