Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by Nick Suzuki, Jun 9, 2021.
Riding Price like only a cowboy in a clown suit can...
Uhm no. First off, this is a supposition. Let's look at another supposition that has higher probability:
Covid has cash strapped a lot of teams, leaving the Habs as a better venue than they normally would be. Pretty sure no one was highly impressed winning against a rusted Pens team, in what amounted to pre-season play.
Where did I dwell on any offseason specifically though? The fact is in these past 4-6 years Montreal have been bottom 5-10 in the NHL. Not subjective, just a fact based on the results. Due to the pandemic, the team also didn't receive the draft compensation that comes with this type of performance. I question validating the direction where the team is headed based on these past 2 rounds vs weighing the rest of the results. What weighs more?
All NHL teams have rosters of majority players between 20-30, don't think you're saying much with that. IMO the problem with Montreal is 50M of their long term cap (3+years term) is tied up with players 27-36:
Price - 34
Weber - 36
Petry - 34
Edmundson - 28
Gallagher - 29
Anderson - 27
Danault - 28 (assume he re-signs 5M)
Toffoli - 29
Maybe Bergevin can have another good summer and fix more holes. But after almost 10 years as GM, going into 21/22 the organization is worse overall than what he started with after 11/12. Blaming 2008-2011 for the lack of prospect development is already proven to be false/excuses as the best player drafted from 2008-2011 still better than anyone drafted by Bergevin's team from 2012-2020.
You don’t know that for sure. We would be facing teams kind Buffalo that as much as Tampa.
Its 26.8 goals over 82 games. A year after a big injury. He comes to play playoff time too. I have no issue. I wish we had 2 of him.
Everyone I speak to outside of this board doesn’t mind MB or likes him. I guess it’s a mixed bag overall.
It’s always possible. We just don’t know. Usually if you quit on team you’re suspended, not given a leave.
If Bergevin had done his job as GM he would have been trying to win a cup in Weber's 1st year not his 5th and this year Montreal finished 18th in the NHL in points not good in his 9th year as GM.....wasted to many prime years of Price and Weber by not willing to deal picks and prospects like every other team in the NHL......OPPORTUNITY LOST.
He should have either gone for it in the first year, or evaluated the team correctly and tanked/accumulated picks.
the main issue will be the wing and D. If he continues in this retool cycle, he needs to figure out what to do with the money for tatar and Drouin, assuming he doesn't come back. Drouin is still young.
I'm relieved because the main positions are (C and goal scoring) being handled by 20, 20 and 21 year olds. Evans and Poehling are also around to play as two way wingers or bottom 6 C's, and danault is in his prime (assuming he gets signed). Romanov will develop, but they need to find someone with mobility who can play up the lineup.
I also like Primeau's potential.
Another goal scoring winger and another PMD - ASSUMING the big young 3 keep developing, and habs could be dangerous going forward
We don't know that for sure. Covid added a lot of unpredictable situations for the team and for the league as a whole.
Here are a few things that deeply effected the Habs...due to Covid.
1. Condensed schedule:
A: With our depth, we could have been able to sit players like Weber. Instead we had to burn him out. Leaving him to be a shell of his former self. I still don't think Weber is close to being 100%, but he's played much better since he's been back from injury. Allen was quite valuable and I think he would have been more valuable for Price's well being in a full season.
B: Brought up more kids from the farm to give them a taste of the NHL. You can do this safely in a full season. You can't afford to do this with the schedule that was implemented.
C: Had more time for our new coaching staff to implement new systems. When Ducharme first came in, we saw small changes right away. Since he didn't have time, the team went back to their old habits. Since that is all they knew. Now that Ducharme has had more time with the team. I've definitely noticed improvements overall.
2. Covid hitting the team:
A: Yes other teams were hit as well. Under normal circumstances, we don't get shut down for a week plus with no games or practices in the middle of the season. We lost valuable time for as I mentioned earlier, Ducharme to work with the team.
3: Living in a Bubble due to Covid:
A: Yes I know this effected all NHL teams as well as everyone on the planet. My point is, it was something that none of them have ever had to go through before. The weight of this for me (an average person) was and still is tremendous. I can't imagine being away from my family. Constantly worrying about their health and well being.
So after writing this essay. I'm not saying we're an amazing team or even a playoff contender. I just think there were too many factors to allow us to make a confident decision on the team either way. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing things go back to normal. That is the only proper way to make a decision on the progress of this team IMO.
Who is responsible for the Director of amateur scouting?
This team is not built by trades and UFAs cause it’s hard to do but because of a systemic and prolonged drafting approach that has never been predicated upon trading up, acquiring higher draft picks and in some instances, by choosing to draft by need in the first round. It was also an unmitigated disaster during those years that Bergevin entrusted the development of his prospects to his best friend Sly Lefebvre.
It only got worse when Bergevin used a subterfuge to not hire Larry Robinson, but instead, retained his childhood friend JJD.
And if this weren’t enough, any young players who made it to the NHL roster had to contend with mangling stylings of Michou.
The “building through the draft” strategy was never fully implemented other than the org. satisfying itself with accumulating a large bank of picks but not first rounders. They’ve even traded down several picks in order to gain an extra selection. It’s been a lottery of throwing as many darts as you can at the draft pool in the hopes of landing an over performer, which almost never equates the lower risk and higher upside of drafting as early as you can.
Fast forward to now, we essentially have the same GM who was favoured by the pandemic and who only had cap room because he carried it forward for three seasons. All of a sudden, most teams are cash strapped, league revenues have dried up, the cap is frozen and Marc Bergevin has cap room to attract players whose options were limited.
This is the same GM who has continued to claim that he was building through the draft while in the same breath asserting that he was vying for the playoffs. There is no plan. He can win individual trades but roster building is not his forte.
Took him more than half his tenure to land two top 6 center candidates. Failed to find and retain or groom a successor to Markov, to this day. He favours shutdown D like in the 90s instead of PMDs.
Some are choosing to set aside his record on account of the the Habs winning two series from the league’s weakest division this year. Others are skeptical that he might be set in his ways and that even a blind squirrel finds an occasional nut. With this ownership group, MB has nothing to fear — they can be easily convinced that he deserves another big contract extension.
How did he Reset/Retool though? He added some good pieces in Edmundson/Toffoli/Perry to the existing core of players. The biggest issue I have is how the organization is in an worse stage than where it was when he took over. Some youth (Gallagher/Eller/Beaulieu/Emelin/Tinordi/3rd overall pick) + young core (Subban/Pacioretty/Price) + good vets (Plekanec/Markov). My point is how can we say Bergevin is doing a good job/future is bright when:
a) MB draft/development has been among the worst in the NHL in his tenure
b) team has been bottom 5-10 in the NHL last 4-6 years in culminative standings
c) team needs a 34 year old Price to continue to be Hart trophy level to have any success as he becomes less and less durable.
The amateur scouting needs to step up. Suzuki is already a lock top 6 C as far as I'm concerned, key piece for the future. Kotkaniemi/Caufield/Romanov panning out is a must.
DLR and Mete were considered top prospects from 2017/2018. Would be pretty dishonest to refute that IMO. Mete was considered untouchable and DLR future shutdown C in the J.Staal mold.
2018 Montreal Canadiens Top 25 Under 25: A Difference of Opinion — EOTP staff vs. community
Canadiens 2017 Top 25 Under 25: A Difference of Opinion — EOTP Staff vs. community
That's all irrelevant. I'm talking about the standings alone, not signings or trades.
We don't make the POs if not for restructuring standings/divisions.
he had 9 years to find a new one. HE decided to keep him there.
You dont have much argument to back up the idea Habs are better than Florida or Boston.
The longer the season the worst it is for Habs imo.
Just go with points total. Given that, we don't make the POs.
We also wouldn't face Edmonton as much and we owned them.
So, I don't look at that. Maybe we do a bit better, or worst, or the same.
I look at last year, we shouldn't have made it.
This year, if going off points, we dont make it again.
Well thats fine. If that's the view though then it goes back to what I was saying, I'll wait before singing praises to Berge like he's some genius visionary.
That's what I'm doing. I'm normally on the "drop kick to Mars" theme when it comes to Berge. This year though, I've put my thoughts about him aside and have just been enjoying the run. I'll give him the last two seasons due to covid. Once this is over though, my opinions won't be filled with unicorns and snow flakes.
Yes I agree, we had no business being in the playoffs last season. A lot of changes have been made to the roster since then though. The majority of them being positive. So judging them that way may not be fair. As for this year, yes by going off points, we don't make it again. In fairness, you have to play the games. You can't compare playing a condensed schedule in one division. Compared to playing a regular full schedule. This is why I'm not praising or slamming Bergie right now. We'll have plenty of time to do that next season
Reset/Retool was around the Patch trade bud. It's well documented and talked about. Comes out of his mouth himself
You don't know if we make the playoffs or not and you or I can't prove it.
Basically you are saying we are for sure locked in from 10-15 and not a playoff team.
- Youth growth don't matter.
- Better back-up don't matter
- Better forwards for Suzuki and KK don't matter
- Better D don't matter cause they can't move the puck
Nothing matters. That's the narrative you are presenting and it's extremely pessimistic. It reeks of Bergevin dislike and nothing matters until he is gone. The team is improving and the trends are there. You want us to be a cup contender and because we are not, we suck. 10 years...
I understand what you are saying but bud... don't you realize this is noise that we really don't need. Bergevin probably gets fired if we loose game 5 to the Leafs yes. But we didn't. Deal with it. We are in the final 4 (luck or not).
As I stated, I'm not sure if the coaching change (as well as spending up to the cap on vets) was a smart move or gun to the head move. Regardless, I now like it. DD has had a good track record in the past and I like the way he has handled the playoffs. I'm not going to give an interim coach hired halfway through the season on a slide during Covid too much trouble. Talk about the worst situation to take over a team. It was a rough transition, but I think he takes a reasoned approach, which is working. Again, the next round will tell the tale.
I think we must all concede (for better or worse) MB has changed. Think about how long he stuck with LS in the A and MT in the big club. Those were atrocious leadership decisions. So, has he learned from his mistakes or simply made changes out of desperation and fallen into some luck. I think the jury is still out. That being said, if you look at the state of the team right now, ... it's in decent shape and on a solid trajectory. Why did it take so long to get here? Why did he stick with MT and LS so long? Why did he get Alzner?????..... (holy cow, catasrophically bad).... etc etc etc.... He has a mixed tenure, but the second half has clearly been better than the first.
So, all that being said, if he has learned from his mistakes (and I'm not conceding this, I'm not sure he's introspective enough to do so), then it might hard to find a replacement that would be better. 5 years ago, there's no way I would have made that statement, now, I'm willing to consider it. OTOH, if he hasn't learned and just got lucky, then he needs to go. Since he will almost certainly get an extension after this run (hopefully 3), we'll have a decent sample size to find the answer.
KK's been learning on the job. Do we give up on him after a 3 or 4 yr stretch where he hasn't lived up to expectations even though he performed well in the playoffs against Covid competition? If we give up on him, is there a better replacement to plug in without going backwards for another 3-5 years?
In the end, MB should have been fired 4-5 years ago. He wasn't. For whatever reason, Molson stuck with him. Now we're where we are. Firing a guy for his record 5+ years ago when he's had a decent last 3 seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. We got to where we are due to the owner. Now it seems like it might make sense to give him 3 yr more leash to settle the question once and for all. If he regresses, the owner can fire him 1 yr in. It's only money, right?
Geezus,... I can't believe I'm defending this guy. How did it come to this? I'm so confused......
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