Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

[BLONG7]

If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year!

Riding Price like only a cowboy in a clown suit can...

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

However, because of this luck, it accelerated the spot we were in and other players in the NHL took notice and decided to come to Montreal either through UFA or trades/extensions. You can't ignore that

Uhm no. First off, this is a supposition. Let's look at another supposition that has higher probability:

Covid has cash strapped a lot of teams, leaving the Habs as a better venue than they normally would be. Pretty sure no one was highly impressed winning against a rusted Pens team, in what amounted to pre-season play.

 

[Wats]

I don't think anyone is/has ignored that...it's been the focus of conversations on this board for the last 8-9 years.

Just not sure why we should dwell about MB's offseason from hell (Radulov, Markov situations), when speaking about how this team looks today or where it's headed.


The key roster players on this team, except Price, Petry & Weber, are all between the ages of 20 and 30.

Where did I dwell on any offseason specifically though? The fact is in these past 4-6 years Montreal have been bottom 5-10 in the NHL. Not subjective, just a fact based on the results. Due to the pandemic, the team also didn't receive the draft compensation that comes with this type of performance. I question validating the direction where the team is headed based on these past 2 rounds vs weighing the rest of the results. What weighs more?

All NHL teams have rosters of majority players between 20-30, don't think you're saying much with that. IMO the problem with Montreal is 50M of their long term cap (3+years term) is tied up with players 27-36:

Price - 34
Weber - 36
Petry - 34
Edmundson - 28
Gallagher - 29
Anderson - 27
Danault - 28 (assume he re-signs 5M)
Toffoli - 29

Maybe Bergevin can have another good summer and fix more holes. But after almost 10 years as GM, going into 21/22 the organization is worse overall than what he started with after 11/12. Blaming 2008-2011 for the lack of prospect development is already proven to be false/excuses as the best player drafted from 2008-2011 still better than anyone drafted by Bergevin's team from 2012-2020.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year!

You don’t know that for sure. We would be facing teams kind Buffalo that as much as Tampa.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

He's a player the team needs, but unless my mental math is off he was on pace for 23/24 goals? Not so bad considering the role he fills, but he accumulated most of those points at the beginning of the season and his end of season and playoffs have not been productive.

Its 26.8 goals over 82 games. A year after a big injury. He comes to play playoff time too. I have no issue. I wish we had 2 of him.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Total opposite for me. I know maybe 1 or 2 people who think he's a good GM. The rest is either meh or dislike.

Everyone I speak to outside of this board doesn’t mind MB or likes him. I guess it’s a mixed bag overall.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Sorry, total assumption on my part, he got called out for 2 goals all season and poor play...left the team 2 days later...

It’s always possible. We just don’t know. Usually if you quit on team you’re suspended, not given a leave.

 

[Mike Towers]

If Bergevin had done his job as GM he would have been trying to win a cup in Weber's 1st year not his 5th and this year Montreal finished 18th in the NHL in points not good in his 9th year as GM.....wasted to many prime years of Price and Weber by not willing to deal picks and prospects like every other team in the NHL......OPPORTUNITY LOST.

 

[dcyhabs]

If Bergevin had done his job as GM he would have been trying to win a cup in Weber's 1st year not his 5th and this year Montreal finished 18th in the NHL in points not good in his 9th year as GM.....wasted to many prime years of Price and Weber by not willing to deal picks and prospects like every other team in the NHL......OPPORTUNITY LOST.

He should have either gone for it in the first year, or evaluated the team correctly and tanked/accumulated picks.

 

[HuGo Sham]

Where did I dwell on any offseason specifically though? The fact is in these past 4-6 years Montreal have been bottom 5-10 in the NHL. Not subjective, just a fact based on the results. Due to the pandemic, the team also didn't receive the draft compensation that comes with this type of performance. I question validating the direction where the team is headed based on these past 2 rounds vs weighing the rest of the results. What weighs more?

All NHL teams have rosters of majority players between 20-30, don't think you're saying much with that. IMO the problem with Montreal is 50M of their long term cap (3+years term) is tied up with players 27-36:

Price - 34
Weber - 36
Petry - 34
Edmundson - 28
Gallagher - 29
Anderson - 27
Danault - 28 (assume he re-signs 5M)
Toffoli - 29

Maybe Bergevin can have another good summer and fix more holes. But after almost 10 years as GM, going into 21/22 the organization is worse overall than what he started with after 11/12. Blaming 2008-2011 for the lack of prospect development is already proven to be false/excuses as the best player drafted from 2008-2011 still better than anyone drafted by Bergevin's team from 2012-2020.

the main issue will be the wing and D. If he continues in this retool cycle, he needs to figure out what to do with the money for tatar and Drouin, assuming he doesn't come back. Drouin is still young.
I'm relieved because the main positions are (C and goal scoring) being handled by 20, 20 and 21 year olds. Evans and Poehling are also around to play as two way wingers or bottom 6 C's, and danault is in his prime (assuming he gets signed). Romanov will develop, but they need to find someone with mobility who can play up the lineup.
I also like Primeau's potential.
Another goal scoring winger and another PMD - ASSUMING the big young 3 keep developing, and habs could be dangerous going forward

 

[Habs10Habs]

If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year!

We don't know that for sure. Covid added a lot of unpredictable situations for the team and for the league as a whole.

Here are a few things that deeply effected the Habs...due to Covid.

1. Condensed schedule:

A: With our depth, we could have been able to sit players like Weber. Instead we had to burn him out. Leaving him to be a shell of his former self. I still don't think Weber is close to being 100%, but he's played much better since he's been back from injury. Allen was quite valuable and I think he would have been more valuable for Price's well being in a full season.

B: Brought up more kids from the farm to give them a taste of the NHL. You can do this safely in a full season. You can't afford to do this with the schedule that was implemented.

C: Had more time for our new coaching staff to implement new systems. When Ducharme first came in, we saw small changes right away. Since he didn't have time, the team went back to their old habits. Since that is all they knew. Now that Ducharme has had more time with the team. I've definitely noticed improvements overall.

2. Covid hitting the team:

A: Yes other teams were hit as well. Under normal circumstances, we don't get shut down for a week plus with no games or practices in the middle of the season. We lost valuable time for as I mentioned earlier, Ducharme to work with the team.

3: Living in a Bubble due to Covid:

A: Yes I know this effected all NHL teams as well as everyone on the planet. My point is, it was something that none of them have ever had to go through before. The weight of this for me (an average person) was and still is tremendous. I can't imagine being away from my family. Constantly worrying about their health and well being.

So after writing this essay. I'm not saying we're an amazing team or even a playoff contender. I just think there were too many factors to allow us to make a confident decision on the team either way. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing things go back to normal. That is the only proper way to make a decision on the progress of this team IMO.

 

[Runner77]

Always liked him and always defended him. He’s made a lot more of good moves than bad ones. No GM is perfect. This team is build by trades and ufa signing. It’s hard to do when you have such a bad director of amateur scouting like we do.

He is miles better than what we are used to and he’s the first to go out and change our smurfs mentality.

Who is responsible for the Director of amateur scouting?

This team is not built by trades and UFAs cause it’s hard to do but because of a systemic and prolonged drafting approach that has never been predicated upon trading up, acquiring higher draft picks and in some instances, by choosing to draft by need in the first round. It was also an unmitigated disaster during those years that Bergevin entrusted the development of his prospects to his best friend Sly Lefebvre.

It only got worse when Bergevin used a subterfuge to not hire Larry Robinson, but instead, retained his childhood friend JJD.

And if this weren’t enough, any young players who made it to the NHL roster had to contend with mangling stylings of Michou.

The “building through the draft” strategy was never fully implemented other than the org. satisfying itself with accumulating a large bank of picks but not first rounders. They’ve even traded down several picks in order to gain an extra selection. It’s been a lottery of throwing as many darts as you can at the draft pool in the hopes of landing an over performer, which almost never equates the lower risk and higher upside of drafting as early as you can.

Fast forward to now, we essentially have the same GM who was favoured by the pandemic and who only had cap room because he carried it forward for three seasons. All of a sudden, most teams are cash strapped, league revenues have dried up, the cap is frozen and Marc Bergevin has cap room to attract players whose options were limited.

This is the same GM who has continued to claim that he was building through the draft while in the same breath asserting that he was vying for the playoffs. There is no plan. He can win individual trades but roster building is not his forte.

Took him more than half his tenure to land two top 6 center candidates. Failed to find and retain or groom a successor to Markov, to this day. He favours shutdown D like in the 90s instead of PMDs.

Some are choosing to set aside his record on account of the the Habs winning two series from the league’s weakest division this year. Others are skeptical that he might be set in his ways and that even a blind squirrel finds an occasional nut. With this ownership group, MB has nothing to fear — they can be easily convinced that he deserves another big contract extension.

 

[Wats]

It's kind of flawed approach when you consider he had a reset/retool and the strategy is a general trend upwards once the youth matures... like you said... takes time for them to settle.

Weber is a concern yes. Price is not in terms of age. Petry is a late bloomer and lean for his height and body size. He has proven to age well. The rest of the core is in a decent age gap. Aside from Weber, there is no concern.

Galchenyuk and Poehling had hype. We know what happened to Chucky. Poehling had a very good 2nd year as a pro. Same with Brook. Mete and DLR were really not hyped that much but some did. That don't mean that was the general consensus. Mete to me was decent as a depth guy but once I realized he was not generating offense with his skating, he was useless to me cause he is a liability in his own end... Look no further than Sandin and Dermott who we took advantage of. DLR was a depth bottom 6F at best probability indicated 4th line

This latest youth core on our team (Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, KK) with others coming is nothing to be negative about and try to compare hype from previous years. That's walking the Earth with your head down all the time when the trends don't support it

How did he Reset/Retool though? He added some good pieces in Edmundson/Toffoli/Perry to the existing core of players. The biggest issue I have is how the organization is in an worse stage than where it was when he took over. Some youth (Gallagher/Eller/Beaulieu/Emelin/Tinordi/3rd overall pick) + young core (Subban/Pacioretty/Price) + good vets (Plekanec/Markov). My point is how can we say Bergevin is doing a good job/future is bright when:
a) MB draft/development has been among the worst in the NHL in his tenure
b) team has been bottom 5-10 in the NHL last 4-6 years in culminative standings
c) team needs a 34 year old Price to continue to be Hart trophy level to have any success as he becomes less and less durable.

The amateur scouting needs to step up. Suzuki is already a lock top 6 C as far as I'm concerned, key piece for the future. Kotkaniemi/Caufield/Romanov panning out is a must.

DLR and Mete were considered top prospects from 2017/2018. Would be pretty dishonest to refute that IMO. Mete was considered untouchable and DLR future shutdown C in the J.Staal mold.

2018 Montreal Canadiens Top 25 Under 25: A Difference of Opinion — EOTP staff vs. community

Canadiens 2017 Top 25 Under 25: A Difference of Opinion — EOTP Staff vs. community

 

[Kriss E]

Because of Covid, we got a 2nd chance and the team showed it's potential when the games matter the most (play in round and playoffs). Habs showed the same signs of not being able to score against the Flyers which was annoying. However, because of this luck, it accelerated the spot we were in and other players in the NHL took notice and decided to come to Montreal either through UFA or trades/extensions. You can't ignore that

Luck is something all teams need along the way
- Pasta on the Bruins at 25 when the following draft year they didn't take Barzal with picks 13,14,15. A genius one year and duds the next year. Go figure eh
- Leafs tanking and winning the lottery (Matthews) when they could have picked 3rd. Kind of like when the Avs owned the Sens pick?
- Leafs being able to sign the pajama boy and not pay any assets to acquire.
- Lightning drafting Point in the 3rd round. Genius or luck? How many elite level talent do you know gets taken in the 3rd round?
- Avs getting that return for Duchene after over a year of trying to move him. If not for the desperate Sens, they don't get that return

The only thing Covid did was save his job yes because like I said, it allowed us to accelerate our strategy of good young players mixing in our team of vets. You might like that cause you have been vocal of not wanting him as our GM but all what happened lead to where we are today. A good team, with a great goalie, and a rising youth core.

How many years do you think it's takes Yzerman to turn the Wings into a legit playoff team? I have a lot of respect for Yzerman but I wonder about what he can do from scratch. He didn't start from scratch in Tampa

That's all irrelevant. I'm talking about the standings alone, not signings or trades.
We don't make the POs if not for restructuring standings/divisions.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Always liked him and always defended him. He’s made a lot more of good moves than bad ones. No GM is perfect. This team is build by trades and ufa signing. It’s hard to do when you have such a bad director of amateur scouting like we do.

He is miles better than what we are used to and he’s the first to go out and change our smurfs mentality.

he had 9 years to find a new one. HE decided to keep him there.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not so sure. Without COVID we don't play 25 games in 44 days.

I think the Habs are better than Boston, and definitely better than Florida, Buffalo, Detroit, Ottawa. They are not far from Toronto. So in a normal year, Tampa Bay would win the division, and Toronto, Montreal and Boston would be fighting it out for 2-3-4, probably in that order.

You dont have much argument to back up the idea Habs are better than Florida or Boston.
The longer the season the worst it is for Habs imo.

 

[Runner77]

Riding Price like only a cowboy in a clown suit can...

 

[Kriss E]

He's GM of the year because of all the moves he made. How can you dispute that, or that he should at least be in the running? Look at all the UFA's he signed this summer (Edmunson, Toffoli) or trades he made (Anderson great season, Domi horrible) or TDL deals (Staal - I loved it at the time, low cost, and great in playoffs so far). Also Allen as a backup was super solid, Perry doing great in playoffs, etc.

You can hate him all you want and think he sucks for past performances - but if "gm of the year" is about rewarding the GM who had the best year - he 100% should be among the favorites. I'd love to hear your response as to why not if you disagree.

As to the playoffs and Covid - sure, we don't make the playoffs last year without it. This year? Well - maybe we don't, maybe we do. You should never assume. Panthers suck every single season - they go off to a new division and are world beaters. I say they would have sucked in the Atlantic. You might be right though - but it's just speculation, and in the end doesn't really matter. We won in playoffs last year unexpectedly, and are doing even better so far this year

Just go with points total. Given that, we don't make the POs.

 

[Kriss E]

You don’t know that for sure. We would be facing teams kind Buffalo that as much as Tampa.

We also wouldn't face Edmonton as much and we owned them.
So, I don't look at that. Maybe we do a bit better, or worst, or the same.
I look at last year, we shouldn't have made it.
This year, if going off points, we dont make it again.

 

[Kriss E]

We don't know that for sure. Covid added a lot of unpredictable situations for the team and for the league as a whole.

Here are a few things that deeply effected the Habs...due to Covid.

1. Condensed schedule:

A: With our depth, we could have been able to sit players like Weber. Instead we had to burn him out. Leaving him to be a shell of his former self. I still don't think Weber is close to being 100%, but he's played much better since he's been back from injury. Allen was quite valuable and I think he would have been more valuable for Price's well being in a full season.

B: Brought up more kids from the farm to give them a taste of the NHL. You can do this safely in a full season. You can't afford to do this with the schedule that was implemented.

C: Had more time for our new coaching staff to implement new systems. When Ducharme first came in, we saw small changes right away. Since he didn't have time, the team went back to their old habits. Since that is all they knew. Now that Ducharme has had more time with the team. I've definitely noticed improvements overall.

2. Covid hitting the team:

A: Yes other teams were hit as well. Under normal circumstances, we don't get shut down for a week plus with no games or practices in the middle of the season. We lost valuable time for as I mentioned earlier, Ducharme to work with the team.

3: Living in a Bubble due to Covid:

A: Yes I know this effected all NHL teams as well as everyone on the planet. My point is, it was something that none of them have ever had to go through before. The weight of this for me (an average person) was and still is tremendous. I can't imagine being away from my family. Constantly worrying about their health and well being.

So after writing this essay. I'm not saying we're an amazing team or even a playoff contender. I just think there were too many factors to allow us to make a confident decision on the team either way. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing things go back to normal. That is the only proper way to make a decision on the progress of this team IMO.

Well thats fine. If that's the view though then it goes back to what I was saying, I'll wait before singing praises to Berge like he's some genius visionary.

 

[Habs10Habs]

Well thats fine. If that's the view though then it goes back to what I was saying, I'll wait before singing praises to Berge like he's some genius visionary.

That's what I'm doing. I'm normally on the "drop kick to Mars" theme when it comes to Berge. This year though, I've put my thoughts about him aside and have just been enjoying the run. I'll give him the last two seasons due to covid. Once this is over though, my opinions won't be filled with unicorns and snow flakes.

 

[Habs10Habs]

We also wouldn't face Edmonton as much and we owned them.
So, I don't look at that. Maybe we do a bit better, or worst, or the same.
I look at last year, we shouldn't have made it.
This year, if going off points, we dont make it again.

Yes I agree, we had no business being in the playoffs last season. A lot of changes have been made to the roster since then though. The majority of them being positive. So judging them that way may not be fair. As for this year, yes by going off points, we don't make it again. In fairness, you have to play the games. You can't compare playing a condensed schedule in one division. Compared to playing a regular full schedule. This is why I'm not praising or slamming Bergie right now. We'll have plenty of time to do that next season

 

[Habs Halifax]

How did he Reset/Retool though? He added some good pieces in Edmundson/Toffoli/Perry to the existing core of players. The biggest issue I have is how the organization is in an worse stage than where it was when he took over. Some youth (Gallagher/Eller/Beaulieu/Emelin/Tinordi/3rd overall pick) + young core (Subban/Pacioretty/Price) + good vets (Plekanec/Markov). My point is how can we say Bergevin is doing a good job/future is bright when:
a) MB draft/development has been among the worst in the NHL in his tenure
b) team has been bottom 5-10 in the NHL last 4-6 years in culminative standings
c) team needs a 34 year old Price to continue to be Hart trophy level to have any success as he becomes less and less durable.

The amateur scouting needs to step up. Suzuki is already a lock top 6 C as far as I'm concerned, key piece for the future. Kotkaniemi/Caufield/Romanov panning out is a must.

DLR and Mete were considered top prospects from 2017/2018. Would be pretty dishonest to refute that IMO. Mete was considered untouchable and DLR future shutdown C in the J.Staal mold.

2018 Montreal Canadiens Top 25 Under 25: A Difference of Opinion — EOTP staff vs. community

Canadiens 2017 Top 25 Under 25: A Difference of Opinion — EOTP Staff vs. community

Reset/Retool was around the Patch trade bud. It's well documented and talked about. Comes out of his mouth himself

 

[Habs Halifax]

That's all irrelevant. I'm talking about the standings alone, not signings or trades.
We don't make the POs if not for restructuring standings/divisions.

You don't know if we make the playoffs or not and you or I can't prove it.

Basically you are saying we are for sure locked in from 10-15 and not a playoff team.
- Youth growth don't matter.
- Better back-up don't matter
- Better forwards for Suzuki and KK don't matter
- Better D don't matter cause they can't move the puck

Nothing matters. That's the narrative you are presenting and it's extremely pessimistic. It reeks of Bergevin dislike and nothing matters until he is gone. The team is improving and the trends are there. You want us to be a cup contender and because we are not, we suck. 10 years...

I understand what you are saying but bud... don't you realize this is noise that we really don't need. Bergevin probably gets fired if we loose game 5 to the Leafs yes. But we didn't. Deal with it. We are in the final 4 (luck or not).

 

[smcgreg]

Ballsiest move? It was out of desperation. He admitted his last card was to fire Waite too as we found out. Nothing ballsy about it, and it lead to no different result. We looked no better during the season, Price didn't do better after Waite. The team didn't play better after Julien.
We are on a 7 game hot streak, people seem to have lost sight of this. It's awesome that we're hitting that stride in the POs, but it means f*** all if we just end up losing to Vegas/Colorado.

People are talking like coming out of the North division is our Stanley Cup.
All this is showing is how little people believed in the Habs so now that they've done well it's a stroke of genius.


I'll be happy to admit he was a genius if we win the cup. But right now, we beat a Leafs team who's been notorious for choking in 1st round, and a team who only had 4 pts more than us with three important guys for them missing. So, let's pump the breaks a bit.

As I stated, I'm not sure if the coaching change (as well as spending up to the cap on vets) was a smart move or gun to the head move. Regardless, I now like it. DD has had a good track record in the past and I like the way he has handled the playoffs. I'm not going to give an interim coach hired halfway through the season on a slide during Covid too much trouble. Talk about the worst situation to take over a team. It was a rough transition, but I think he takes a reasoned approach, which is working. Again, the next round will tell the tale.

I think we must all concede (for better or worse) MB has changed. Think about how long he stuck with LS in the A and MT in the big club. Those were atrocious leadership decisions. So, has he learned from his mistakes or simply made changes out of desperation and fallen into some luck. I think the jury is still out. That being said, if you look at the state of the team right now, ... it's in decent shape and on a solid trajectory. Why did it take so long to get here? Why did he stick with MT and LS so long? Why did he get Alzner?????..... (holy cow, catasrophically bad).... etc etc etc.... He has a mixed tenure, but the second half has clearly been better than the first.

So, all that being said, if he has learned from his mistakes (and I'm not conceding this, I'm not sure he's introspective enough to do so), then it might hard to find a replacement that would be better. 5 years ago, there's no way I would have made that statement, now, I'm willing to consider it. OTOH, if he hasn't learned and just got lucky, then he needs to go. Since he will almost certainly get an extension after this run (hopefully 3), we'll have a decent sample size to find the answer.

KK's been learning on the job. Do we give up on him after a 3 or 4 yr stretch where he hasn't lived up to expectations even though he performed well in the playoffs against Covid competition? If we give up on him, is there a better replacement to plug in without going backwards for another 3-5 years?

In the end, MB should have been fired 4-5 years ago. He wasn't. For whatever reason, Molson stuck with him. Now we're where we are. Firing a guy for his record 5+ years ago when he's had a decent last 3 seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. We got to where we are due to the owner. Now it seems like it might make sense to give him 3 yr more leash to settle the question once and for all. If he regresses, the owner can fire him 1 yr in. It's only money, right?

Geezus,... I can't believe I'm defending this guy. How did it come to this? I'm so confused......